Assyrian neo-Aramaic (and other neo-Aramaic dialects)

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Re: Assyrian neo-Aramaic (and other neo-Aramaic dialects)

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-16, 9:24

n8an wrote:You should! :D

I shall. It's only a matter of time. :wink:

By the way, I do have those two books you mentioned for Chaldean. (At this point I'm not sure if I should call it Chaldean or not. :para: )

Do you know any native speakers?

No. Unfortunately.

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Re: Assyrian neo-Aramaic (and other neo-Aramaic dialects)

Postby n8an » 2018-03-16, 17:00

księżycowy wrote:By the way, I do have those two books you mentioned for Chaldean.


How do you find them?

(At this point I'm not sure if I should call it Chaldean or not. :para: )


You're not the only one. Identity issues are soooooo fing complex with this community :doggy: I generally refer to it as Sureth to avoid complaints.

No. Unfortunately.


Oh! I wish we lived in the same city so I could hook you up with some!

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Re: Assyrian neo-Aramaic (and other neo-Aramaic dialects)

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-16, 18:59

n8an wrote:How do you find them?

viewtopic.php?f=128&t=47544#p1060781 :whistle:

Oh! I wish we lived in the same city so I could hook you up with some!

What's your address? I'll move in.

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Re: Assyrian neo-Aramaic (and other neo-Aramaic dialects)

Postby Drink » 2018-03-16, 19:02

Linguaphile wrote:And this is an interesting read about history and culture and language (it's a memoir, not language-learning material, but it does discuss the dialect of Zakho and Aramaic linguistics from that perspective, and comparisons to Hebrew): My Father's Paradise


This is a great book. I got it thinking it would last me a while, but I ended up devouring it in one day!
שתה וגם גמליך אשקה

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Re: Assyrian neo-Aramaic (and other neo-Aramaic dialects)

Postby n8an » 2018-03-16, 23:44

księżycowy wrote:https://forum.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f=128&t=47544#p1060781 :whistle:


Oh my lord. I can't believe you had to link me to a post that I was part of :D

What's your address? I'll move in.


100 Handsome Street, Beautyville, Sexyland

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Re: Assyrian neo-Aramaic (and other neo-Aramaic dialects)

Postby Wingster » 2018-05-10, 21:56

n8an wrote:
księżycowy wrote:Cool, great to hear you're still going at it. As I'm still refreshing my Hebrew, I haven't started any Neo-Aramaic (or Biblical Aramaic for that matter) yet, but I still hope to eventually.


So happy to hear that you're going well with Hebrew :D

What book is that? With the scarcity of resources, I'd be interested to know more about any book(s) that is helpful in learning any dialect.


It's a book called "Introductory Chaldean" or something.

Though "Chaldean neo-Aramaic" is the technical name of one of the dialects, and is thus linguistically an acceptable name, the entire "Chaldean" nationalist movement is incredibly divisive and harmful to the overall state of Assyrians. The name "Chaldean" was erroneously given to Assyrians who converted to Catholicism over time, beginning in the 16th century. The Chaldean nation existed hundreds of years ago in southern Iraq and then disappeared; all current "Chaldeans" are ethnic Assyrians from northern Iraq who formerly followed the Assyrian Church of the East. The Vatican choosing the name "Chaldean" for them came from not wanting to call it the "Assyrian Catholic Church" because the Church of the East already formerly calls itself "Catholic" as well. Saddam Hussein then heavily pressured Assyrians into identifying as "Arab Christians", banned their language/names/culture/etc and heavily emphasised the differences between Assyrians of different churches, making them seem like different ethnicities.

Therefore, when a book calls the language "Chaldean", talks of its speakers as "Chaldeans", and makes zero mention of Assyria or Assyrians, it's a separatist propaganda piece.

Unfortunately, the book is by far the best resource I've found for the language. I've in fact ordered the Grammar book, too. It's not the best language book ever, but it's not bad. It does teach the so-called "Chaldean" version of the language, which my friends love to point out - though it's a "pure" version, which doesn't use many Arabic words. It's also a seemingly obscure version of this dialect, as it uses words like "randa" for "good", when every single other person I've met who speaks any dialect of this language says "spy" for "good".

That's not true, it's mostly Nestorian Assyrians who use the Kurdish loan "spy". We from Ankawa say "randa", so do those from Shaqlawa, Karemlesh and probably other Chaldean speakers in Iraq.

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Re: Assyrian neo-Aramaic (and other neo-Aramaic dialects)

Postby n8an » 2018-05-19, 9:07

Wingster wrote:
n8an wrote:
księżycowy wrote:Cool, great to hear you're still going at it. As I'm still refreshing my Hebrew, I haven't started any Neo-Aramaic (or Biblical Aramaic for that matter) yet, but I still hope to eventually.


So happy to hear that you're going well with Hebrew :D

What book is that? With the scarcity of resources, I'd be interested to know more about any book(s) that is helpful in learning any dialect.


It's a book called "Introductory Chaldean" or something.

Though "Chaldean neo-Aramaic" is the technical name of one of the dialects, and is thus linguistically an acceptable name, the entire "Chaldean" nationalist movement is incredibly divisive and harmful to the overall state of Assyrians. The name "Chaldean" was erroneously given to Assyrians who converted to Catholicism over time, beginning in the 16th century. The Chaldean nation existed hundreds of years ago in southern Iraq and then disappeared; all current "Chaldeans" are ethnic Assyrians from northern Iraq who formerly followed the Assyrian Church of the East. The Vatican choosing the name "Chaldean" for them came from not wanting to call it the "Assyrian Catholic Church" because the Church of the East already formerly calls itself "Catholic" as well. Saddam Hussein then heavily pressured Assyrians into identifying as "Arab Christians", banned their language/names/culture/etc and heavily emphasised the differences between Assyrians of different churches, making them seem like different ethnicities.

Therefore, when a book calls the language "Chaldean", talks of its speakers as "Chaldeans", and makes zero mention of Assyria or Assyrians, it's a separatist propaganda piece.

Unfortunately, the book is by far the best resource I've found for the language. I've in fact ordered the Grammar book, too. It's not the best language book ever, but it's not bad. It does teach the so-called "Chaldean" version of the language, which my friends love to point out - though it's a "pure" version, which doesn't use many Arabic words. It's also a seemingly obscure version of this dialect, as it uses words like "randa" for "good", when every single other person I've met who speaks any dialect of this language says "spy" for "good".



That's not true, it's mostly Nestorian Assyrians who use the Kurdish loan "spy". We from Ankawa say "randa", so do those from Shaqlawa, Karemlesh and probably other Chaldean speakers in Iraq.


Sorry, I phrased it wrongly - that's what I meant to say.

Although, out of curiosity, do all Ankawnaye (is that the correct term?) say "randa"? I have a friend from there and he says "spy". I think I've heard Alqoshnaye say "randa", but I'm not sure about Zakho and other places.

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Re: Assyrian neo-Aramaic (and other neo-Aramaic dialects)

Postby Wingster » 2018-05-22, 13:03

n8an wrote:
Wingster wrote:
n8an wrote:
księżycowy wrote:Cool, great to hear you're still going at it. As I'm still refreshing my Hebrew, I haven't started any Neo-Aramaic (or Biblical Aramaic for that matter) yet, but I still hope to eventually.


So happy to hear that you're going well with Hebrew :D

What book is that? With the scarcity of resources, I'd be interested to know more about any book(s) that is helpful in learning any dialect.


It's a book called "Introductory Chaldean" or something.

Though "Chaldean neo-Aramaic" is the technical name of one of the dialects, and is thus linguistically an acceptable name, the entire "Chaldean" nationalist movement is incredibly divisive and harmful to the overall state of Assyrians. The name "Chaldean" was erroneously given to Assyrians who converted to Catholicism over time, beginning in the 16th century. The Chaldean nation existed hundreds of years ago in southern Iraq and then disappeared; all current "Chaldeans" are ethnic Assyrians from northern Iraq who formerly followed the Assyrian Church of the East. The Vatican choosing the name "Chaldean" for them came from not wanting to call it the "Assyrian Catholic Church" because the Church of the East already formerly calls itself "Catholic" as well. Saddam Hussein then heavily pressured Assyrians into identifying as "Arab Christians", banned their language/names/culture/etc and heavily emphasised the differences between Assyrians of different churches, making them seem like different ethnicities.

Therefore, when a book calls the language "Chaldean", talks of its speakers as "Chaldeans", and makes zero mention of Assyria or Assyrians, it's a separatist propaganda piece.

Unfortunately, the book is by far the best resource I've found for the language. I've in fact ordered the Grammar book, too. It's not the best language book ever, but it's not bad. It does teach the so-called "Chaldean" version of the language, which my friends love to point out - though it's a "pure" version, which doesn't use many Arabic words. It's also a seemingly obscure version of this dialect, as it uses words like "randa" for "good", when every single other person I've met who speaks any dialect of this language says "spy" for "good".



That's not true, it's mostly Nestorian Assyrians who use the Kurdish loan "spy". We from Ankawa say "randa", so do those from Shaqlawa, Karemlesh and probably other Chaldean speakers in Iraq.


Sorry, I phrased it wrongly - that's what I meant to say.

Although, out of curiosity, do all Ankawnaye (is that the correct term?) say "randa"? I have a friend from there and he says "spy". I think I've heard Alqoshnaye say "randa", but I'm not sure about Zakho and other places.

I've never heard other Ankawaye say "spy" unless they are speaking Kurdish or something.

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Re: Assyrian neo-Aramaic (and other neo-Aramaic dialects)

Postby Wingster » 2018-06-05, 0:55

n8an wrote:
It's so interesting listening to all these dialects and their differences. Listening to the "Chaldean" dialects, I realised there are differences there too; Ankawa sounds less Arabised than Telkeppe, for example. Telkeppe really does have a reputation for being extremely Arabised, so I guess it makes sense. Alqosh also didn't sound as Arabised. Then again, I guess there are variations within every town; some speakers probably Arabise their speech much more than others.

But our dialects are basically only really "arabised" when we talk of things like politics or science or history, in subjects that we simply don't have words for in any dialect. Other than that the reason we sound more like Arabic is cause our dialects are more conservative than those of the Hakkari and Urmi regions. Some of them have gone through some extreme innovations, like I barely understand the Jilu and Baz dialects.
It's kinda weird how the Nestorian Assyrians don't even pronounce some church related words with H/7 instead of X/Kh like Msheeha vs Msheexa or the word for soul/spirit(roha vs roxa). Most of the arabisation is rather recent, post WW2. I remember my great grandmother spoke really purely with only old Arabic loans and sounded somewhat different than that of my parents yet she still used H/7 here and there and didn't sound much like the Assyrians of Urmi or Hakkar.

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Re: Assyrian neo-Aramaic (and other neo-Aramaic dialects)

Postby n8an » 2018-06-05, 1:53

Wingster wrote:But our dialects are basically only really "arabised" when we talk of things like politics or science or history, in subjects that we simply don't have words for in any dialect.


Hmm, I dunno...I feel like so many people who speak Nineveh dialects have so many Arabic words in their everyday speech that it's almost a hybrid. Even the words for "a lot/very" ("kabeera"), "speak" (from the 7-k-y root) and many others seem to be Arabic loans.

https://youtu.be/us3VnEsGh7s

This bishop uses so many Arabic words for example.

I mean...so many. An Arabic speaker would understand a lot of words from this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpirKxj1G6o

Juliana Jendo also makes a few songs in that dialect, and it also feels a lot more Arabised than her other songs.


The non-Chaldean dialects also use Arabic words of course, but it feels way less influenced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weJvuSQ8rtg

I couldn't really recognise any distinct words in this song.

https://youtu.be/ErfY4xJqZ-4

Also here, I couldn't really identify much (though I didn't watch the whole thing). Her speech is full of English, though :partyhat:

https://youtu.be/Yy2Bzh1awok

But you're right - not all Chaldeans Arabise their speech extensively. I'm pretty sure Randa Yaqoub is Chaldean from Iraq, but this is pretty different to standard Nineveh.

Other than that the reason we sound more like Arabic is cause our dialects are more conservative than those of the Hakkari and Urmi regions. Some of them have gone through some extreme innovations, like I barely understand the Jilu and Baz dialects.


That's probably true. I do feel that those dialects have a simplified phonology too, possibly under a heavier Iranian influence. Then again, I can't say for sure that the Nineveh dialects haven't undergone other influences too.

It's kinda weird how the Nestorian Assyrians don't even pronounce some church related words with H/7 instead of X/Kh like Msheeha vs Msheexa or the word for soul/spirit(roha vs roxa). Most of the arabisation is rather recent, post WW2. I remember my great grandmother spoke really purely with only old Arabic loans and sounded somewhat different than that of my parents yet she still used H/7 here and there and didn't sound much like the Assyrians of Urmi or Hakkar.


For sure, the Nineveh dialects have a more diverse phonology. There's 7 as opposed to kh, 3ayin is often pronounced much more heavily, and I've also heard ظ along with ذ. "Th" (as in "thing") is used too, but other Assyrian dialects use that too (except Urmi doesn't, and I'm not sure about the other Iraqi ones).

I've also noticed the "R" sound in some Nineveh dialects to be pronounced similar to a French "r", as in some dialects of Jewish Iraqi Arabic, Mosul Muslim Arabic (I think) and even modern Hebrew (potentially one reason for the eventual dominance of this sound over the other "r" sound in older Hebrew, along with Yiddish speakers being able to pronounce it better).

For these reasons - phonology, not even taking vocabulary into account - I've always said that North Eastern Neo-Aramaic dialects can sound variously close to different languages; Nineveh dialects and Turoyo sound closer to Arabic, Iraqi Koine and other Assyrian dialects sound closer to Hebrew, and Urmi sounds similar to Farsi and also a bit Hebrew.

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Re: Assyrian neo-Aramaic (and other neo-Aramaic dialects)

Postby Wingster » 2018-06-05, 22:15

n8an wrote:Hmm, I dunno...I feel like so many people who speak Nineveh dialects have so many Arabic words in their everyday speech that it's almost a hybrid. Even the words for "a lot/very" ("kabeera"), "speak" (from the 7-k-y root) and many others seem to be Arabic loans.

https://youtu.be/us3VnEsGh7s

This bishop uses so many Arabic words for example.

I mean...so many. An Arabic speaker would understand a lot of words from this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpirKxj1G6o

Juliana Jendo also makes a few songs in that dialect, and it also feels a lot more Arabised than her other songs.


The non-Chaldean dialects also use Arabic words of course, but it feels way less influenced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weJvuSQ8rtg

I couldn't really recognise any distinct words in this song.

https://youtu.be/ErfY4xJqZ-4

Also here, I couldn't really identify much (though I didn't watch the whole thing). Her speech is full of English, though :partyhat:

https://youtu.be/Yy2Bzh1awok

But you're right - not all Chaldeans Arabise their speech extensively. I'm pretty sure Randa Yaqoub is Chaldean from Iraq, but this is pretty different to standard Nineveh.

Randa Yaquob isn't singing in the Nineveh plains dialect and most of her weddings are of couples from Assyrian Church of the East so I'm guessing she must be one of the very few Chaldean Catholics from Urmi or Hakkar. They identify as Assyrian.
Neither of these sound very arabic though, that's just how we speak. H/7 is gonna make it sound more arabic for someone not used to our language, but it's only superficially. I was born in Sweden and I can't speak Arabic at all, yet I understod these examples quite well even though the Ankawa dialect is somewhat different than those further west. I've talked to many arab speaking friends here in Sweden in my own dialect and they don't understand a thing. Either way you can't say it's cause of arabic influence. Geoffrey Khan, one of the most knowledgeable professors in North Eastern Neo Aramaic has mentioned several times that the dialects spoken on the Nineveh plains are the most conseravtive and archaic, expecially that of Qaraqosh/Bakhdede which has very little Iranic input unlike the Barwar, Hakkari and Urmi dialects.
Btw "Mhkoye" isn't Arabic, arabs don't use it if I remember it correctly. Atleast not the ones we were in contact with. On the other hand "hamzume" is Persian, the word Urmi/Hakkari dialects use.

For sure, the Nineveh dialects have a more diverse phonology. There's 7 as opposed to kh, 3ayin is often pronounced much more heavily, and I've also heard ظ along with ذ. "Th" (as in "thing") is used too, but other Assyrian dialects use that too (except Urmi doesn't, and I'm not sure about the other Iraqi ones).

Actually we have lost many more diphtongs than the ACOE Assyrians have. Like we say
Ena= eye, they say "Eyina"
Betha=house they say "Beyta"
But when we do have preserved the diphtong it's almost always in it's original "3ayin" form. Also we use Kh/X far more than H/7.
Other diphtongs like "au" or "aw" we have lost them almost completely.

For these reasons - phonology, not even taking vocabulary into account - I've always said that North Eastern Neo-Aramaic dialects can sound variously close to different languages; Nineveh dialects and Turoyo sound closer to Arabic, Iraqi Koine and other Assyrian dialects sound closer to Hebrew, and Urmi sounds similar to Farsi and also a bit Hebrew.

This is only superfically though, no Hebrew speaking Jew is gonna understand Urmi better than Chaldean just because it has more Kh/X, same thing for Arabs although they will recongnize more words in our dialect but they won't most if any of it.

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Re: Assyrian neo-Aramaic (and other neo-Aramaic dialects)

Postby n8an » 2018-06-06, 3:18

Wingster wrote:Randa Yaquob isn't singing in the Nineveh plains dialect and most of her weddings are of couples from Assyrian Church of the East so I'm guessing she must be one of the very few Chaldean Catholics from Urmi or Hakkar. They identify as Assyrian.


Just to clarify, is it your view that Chaldean Catholics are a separate ethnicity to other Assyrians, or just that they often speak different dialects?

Randa is a Chaldean Catholic Assyrian from Iraq. She has publicly identified as such. She even appeared on Najm el Khaleej.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1yWlHS4nXA


Neither of these sound very arabic though, that's just how we speak. H/7 is gonna make it sound more arabic for someone not used to our language, but it's only superficially. I was born in Sweden and I can't speak Arabic at all, yet I understod these examples quite well even though the Ankawa dialect is somewhat different than those further west. I've talked to many arab speaking friends here in Sweden in my own dialect and they don't understand a thing. Either way you can't say it's cause of arabic influence. Geoffrey Khan, one of the most knowledgeable professors in North Eastern Neo Aramaic has mentioned several times that the dialects spoken on the Nineveh plains are the most conseravtive and archaic, expecially that of Qaraqosh/Bakhdede which has very little Iranic input unlike the Barwar, Hakkari and Urmi dialects.


I do agree with that notion.

However, that is referring to the actual dialect of Sureth that is purely spoken (as you mentioned, probably by your grandparents' generation). Certainly today that dialect can still be spoken, but due to Arabic education and media, it seems like the overwhelming majority of people like to pepper their speech with Arabic words. Definitely the Bakhdeda people seem to do it a real lot; I can't speak for Qaraqosh because I don't know people from there.

Btw "Mhkoye" isn't Arabic, arabs don't use it if I remember it correctly. Atleast not the ones we were in contact with. On the other hand "hamzume" is Persian, the word Urmi/Hakkari dialects use.


"Mhkoye" comes from the root "7-k-y" and is used in Arabic. Some dialects prefer the root "k-l-m" for "speaking", but there are many which prefer the "7-k-y" root (Lebanese and all Levantine dialects to my knowledge, Iraqi). In Iraqi it is usually pronounced "7-ch-y" (as in, "ani a7chi"). Other dialects use it in ways like "7ekaya" for "story".

I am not entirely sure if this root is native to Aramaic or whether it is borrowed from Arabic.

As for the "hamzim" root, I have always felt that it sounds Persian...but since my Persian is not very good, I have not been able to verify this. I would be interested to know.


Actually we have lost many more diphtongs than the ACOE Assyrians have. Like we say
Ena= eye, they say "Eyina"
Betha=house they say "Beyta"
But when we do have preserved the diphtong it's almost always in it's original "3ayin" form. Also we use Kh/X far more than H/7.
Other diphtongs like "au" or "aw" we have lost them almost completely.


Well, it's really impossible to say for sure where this comes from, but there are several Arabic dialects (most?) which have lost those diphthongs too. I wouldn't say that the Sureth loss of diphthongs is an Arabic influence, though.

Btw, I know that I shouldn't be telling a native speaker things about his/her own language, but the dialects don't fully correspond to church adherence; there are plenty of Catholics who speak "Assyrian" and Assyrians who speak "Chaldean" and vice versa.

This is only superfically though, no Hebrew speaking Jew is gonna understand Urmi better than Chaldean just because it has more Kh/X, same thing for Arabs although they will recongnize more words in our dialect but they won't most if any of it.


Definitely, I agree that it's only in the phonology of the languages.

I am a Hebrew-speaking Jew, as well as an Arabic-speaking Jew. I couldn't understand Sureth before I started learning it, but isolated words have always been clear to understand:

Hebrew - Arabic - Sureth

ayin - 3ayn - eyna

Bayit - beyt - beytha

Shamayim - sama - shmaya

Mayim - may - maya

Ahava - 7ob - khooba

Yam - ba7r - yama

Ima - Um/em - yimma

Etc etc. These have always been easy to pick up. I think there may be more cognates between Hebrew and Aramaic than either has with Arabaic.

Still, it is easy to pick up the basics if you have knowledge of another Semitic language.

The Urmi dialect sounds closer to Hebrew in other ways than just the "kh"; it uses "v" instead of "w", like Hebrew does, and doesn't really use "th", "dh" or "3ayn". Iraqi "Assyrian" also sounds similar to Hebrew in this way. "Chaldean" just does sound more close to Arabic for those reasons.

To be clear: I am not saying that Nineveh dialects are Arabic in any way; I am just saying that their phonology sounds more similar to Arabic than other dialects of North Eastern Neo-Aramaic (not because of Arabic influence, to be clear) and that their vocabulary utilises more Arabic loans than other dialects do, particularly in modern times.

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Re: Assyrian neo-Aramaic (and other neo-Aramaic dialects)

Postby Wingster » 2018-06-06, 14:57

n8an wrote:
Wingster wrote:Randa Yaquob isn't singing in the Nineveh plains dialect and most of her weddings are of couples from Assyrian Church of the East so I'm guessing she must be one of the very few Chaldean Catholics from Urmi or Hakkar. They identify as Assyrian.


Just to clarify, is it your view that Chaldean Catholics are a separate ethnicity to other Assyrians, or just that they often speak different dialects?

Randa is a Chaldean Catholic Assyrian from Iraq. She has publicly identified as such. She even appeared on Najm el Khaleej.


I could ask you the same thing. You seem to think we Chaldean Catholics are some kind of half Arabs, and then bashing us for not identifying with ACOE Assyrians(I've read your posts in this thread). I ofc identify as Assyrian, but I'm not very fond of ACOE Assyrians cause of their agression and passive-agressive tone towards us. They claim all of us as Assyrians but act as if they are more "Assyrian" and we being second class, yet we are the ones who live in our actual homeland not to mention they have mixed with Armenians for centuries when we have practiced a stricter endogamy. Even their church has an agressive tone towards us. We don't get along well at all and few people marry with members of ACOE, whilst we have great ties with the Syriac Orthodox of Tur Abdin atleast here in Sweden.

I do agree with that notion.
However, that is referring to the actual dialect of Sureth that is purely spoken (as you mentioned, probably by your grandparents' generation). Certainly today that dialect can still be spoken, but due to Arabic education and media, it seems like the overwhelming majority of people like to pepper their speech with Arabic words. Definitely the Bakhdeda people seem to do it a real lot; I can't speak for Qaraqosh because I don't know people from there.

We don't view Arabic influence as something totally negative and keep in mind we are far less nationalistic than ACOE Assyrians so for us using Arabic words for words that we don't actually have in our language is not frowned upon.
Btw Bakhdede and Qaraqosh are the same village. Qaraqosh is the Turkish name for the village whilst Bakhdede the Syriac.

"Mhkoye" comes from the root "7-k-y" and is used in Arabic. Some dialects prefer the root "k-l-m" for "speaking", but there are many which prefer the "7-k-y" root (Lebanese and all Levantine dialects to my knowledge, Iraqi). In Iraqi it is usually pronounced "7-ch-y" (as in, "ani a7chi"). Other dialects use it in ways like "7ekaya" for "story".

I am not entirely sure if this root is native to Aramaic or whether it is borrowed from Arabic.

As for the "hamzim" root, I have always felt that it sounds Persian...but since my Persian is not very good, I have not been able to verify this. I would be interested to know.

Well I'm not sure either, I've read some of Geoffrey Khans' books, the ones focusing on Barwar, Diyana and Urmi dialects and he doesn't seem to classify M7koye as Arabic, it could be an old Arabic loan since Barwari and Tyari ACOE use it aswell. Though nowadays ofc they speak mostly Iraqi Koine(Urmi) and use Hamzume.

Btw, I know that I shouldn't be telling a native speaker things about his/her own language, but the dialects don't fully correspond to church adherence; there are plenty of Catholics who speak "Assyrian" and Assyrians who speak "Chaldean" and vice versa.

What makes you think I didn't know this? I've been referring to my dialect as part of the Nineveh plains.
Btw some villages in the Nineveh plains
Bakhdede= Syriac Orthodox
Baretle= Syriac Catholic
Karemlesh= Chaldean Catholic
All within 20 mins of eachother by car and they all speak the same dialect pretty much.
My dialect(Ankawa) is closer to these two Syriac villages mentioned above than to other Chaldean Catholics villages further NW like Mangeshe or Peshkhabour. We also have an Nochiya/Urmi touch to our dialect, unlike the dialects further west.

n8an
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Re: Assyrian neo-Aramaic (and other neo-Aramaic dialects)

Postby n8an » 2018-06-06, 15:20

Wingster wrote:I could ask you the same thing. You seem to think we Chaldean Catholics are some kind of half Arabs, and then bashing us for not identifying with ACOE Assyrians(I've read your posts in this thread). I ofc identify as Assyrian, but I'm not very fond of ACOE Assyrians cause of their agression and passive-agressive tone towards us. They claim all of us as Assyrians but act as if they are more "Assyrian" and we being second class, yet we are the ones who live in our actual homeland not to mention they have mixed with Armenians for centuries when we have practiced a stricter endogamy. Even their church has an agressive tone towards us. We don't get along well at all and few people marry with members of ACOE, whilst we have great ties with the Syriac Orthodox of Tur Abdin atleast here in Sweden.


No, I absolutely do not think you are half Arabs. I think you are 100% Assyrian.

I am not going to enter the debate about churches because I am really out of my depth here. But what I will say is that it's clear that all of the churches have a part to play in this. I am definitely not saying the ACOE is not a part of this; just as I am not claiming that the CCC or Syriac churches don't play their part too.

More sadly, certain foreign leaders have probably had the biggest impact on that division.


We don't view Arabic influence as something totally negative and keep in mind we are far less nationalistic than ACOE Assyrians so for us using Arabic words for words that we don't actually have in our language is not frowned upon.


I definitely don't think it's something to look down upon. Just pointing out that it happens.

Btw Bakhdede and Qaraqosh are the same village. Qaraqosh is the Turkish name for the village whilst Bakhdede the Syriac.


Thanks for telling me. I did not know that. I think I got Qaraqosh and Karamlesh confused.

Well I'm not sure either, I've read some of Geoffrey Khans' books, the ones focusing on Barwar, Diyana and Urmi dialects and he doesn't seem to classify M7koye as Arabic, it could be an old Arabic loan since Barwari and Tyari ACOE use it aswell. Though nowadays ofc they speak mostly Iraqi Koine(Urmi) and use Hamzume.


I don't know really. I'd be interested to know if anybody knows the origin of that word.

What makes you think I didn't know this? I've been referring to my dialect as part of the Nineveh plains.
Btw some villages in the Nineveh plains
Bakhdede= Syriac Orthodox
Baretle= Syriac Catholic
Karemlesh= Chaldean Catholic
All within 20 mins of eachother by car and they all speak the same dialect pretty much.
My dialect(Ankawa) is closer to these two Syriac villages mentioned above than to other Chaldean Catholics villages further NW like Mangeshe or Peshkhabour. We also have an Nochiya/Urmi touch to our dialect, unlike the dialects further west.


These towns I do know. I am more familiar with people from Ankawa, Alqosh, Tel Keppe, Amadiya, Zakho, and some smaller ones which I don't know how to spell. I also know Assyrians from Mosul who can't speak Sureth, and some from Urmia and Syria who of course do. I only really know one person from Tur Abdin and I am not close enough to speak with him often about his language.

Can you elaborate on the Nochiya/Urmi touch to your dialect? I have noticed Ankawa Sureth does sound a bit different to some other Chaldean towns.

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Re: Assyrian neo-Aramaic (and other neo-Aramaic dialects)

Postby Wingster » 2018-06-06, 16:41

n8an wrote:
No, I absolutely do not think you are half Arabs. I think you are 100% Assyrian.

I am not going to enter the debate about churches because I am really out of my depth here. But what I will say is that it's clear that all of the churches have a part to play in this. I am definitely not saying the ACOE is not a part of this; just as I am not claiming that the CCC or Syriac churches don't play their part too.

More sadly, certain foreign leaders have probably had the biggest impact on that division.

I'm not gonna debate our churches too, cause I'm an atheist and have not many kind words to say about my own church and it's role in this whole identity issue. But I've noticed this coming from many ACOE Assyrians themself, they somewhat look down upon us but yet at the same time acknowledge us as Assyrians, it's kinda hard to explain.

I definitely don't think it's something to look down upon. Just pointing out that it happens.

Well I can tell you that scholars from France, Germany, England and the US are creating two standard Assyrian languages. One for us easterners(Chaldean Catholic and ACOE) and one for the westerners of Tur Abdin. So hopefully we'll have a standard tongue soon enough.


These towns I do know. I am more familiar with people from Ankawa, Alqosh, Tel Keppe, Amadiya, Zakho, and some smaller ones which I don't know how to spell. I also know Assyrians from Mosul who can't speak Sureth, and some from Urmia and Syria who of course do. I only really know one person from Tur Abdin and I am not close enough to speak with him often about his language.

Interesting. I think the Amadiya dialect of the Chaldeans there is pretty much Barwari/Tyari. What do they use for the word "mine", Didi or Diyi?

Can you elaborate on the Nochiya/Urmi touch to your dialect? I have noticed Ankawa Sureth does sound a bit different to some other Chaldean towns.

Well the biggest difference is our loss of "dh". We say
Eda= feast/festival
Ida= hand
Just like Nochiya and Urmi Assyrians. Whilst other Nineveh villages and even ACOE Assyrians from Barwar and western Hakkar use "dh" like the English "this".
Other things I've noticed is mostly vocabulary. Comparing some words between Barwari(that's generally much closer to Alqosh, Tel Kepe, Mangeshe and so on) and Urmi. In these examples we use the exact words of Urmi
Urmi-ftarta, Barwar-tamta = breakfast
Urmi-depna, Barwar-gota = side
Urmi-supra, Barwar-chuchatha = sparrow
Urmi-qedamta, Barwar-Mbadla = morning

n8an
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Re: Assyrian neo-Aramaic (and other neo-Aramaic dialects)

Postby n8an » 2018-06-07, 14:38

Wingster wrote:I'm not gonna debate our churches too, cause I'm an atheist and have not many kind words to say about my own church and it's role in this whole identity issue. But I've noticed this coming from many ACOE Assyrians themself, they somewhat look down upon us but yet at the same time acknowledge us as Assyrians, it's kinda hard to explain.


I know what you mean. I have friends who are very active in Assyrian activism, and I also have friends whose families are very prominent in Chaldean organisations. I see how things go. My friend, who is an Assyrian activist himself, criticises the ACOE for acting like it is the "original" church of the Assyrians and ostracising Chaldeans. He also criticises the CCC and Syriac churches for their roles.

I definitely shouldn't be involving myself in this issue though; it's really not my place to speak about it.

Well I can tell you that scholars from France, Germany, England and the US are creating two standard Assyrian languages. One for us easterners(Chaldean Catholic and ACOE) and one for the westerners of Tur Abdin. So hopefully we'll have a standard tongue soon enough.


Are they really? I did not know that! I would be really interested to learn the eastern variant. I like Turoyo too for its own reasons, but I would love to be able to actively learn eastern Sureth so that I can speak to my friends...finally!


Interesting. I think the Amadiya dialect of the Chaldeans there is pretty much Barwari/Tyari. What do they use for the word "mine", Didi or Diyi?


Tbh I don't know. My friend is actually ACOE, if that means anything. I am not advanced enough with my knowledge to identify dialects that specifically; I can tell Iraqi Koine from Urmi from Nineveh Plains, and that's about it.

Well the biggest difference is our loss of "dh". We say
Eda= feast/festival
Ida= hand
Just like Nochiya and Urmi Assyrians. Whilst other Nineveh villages and even ACOE Assyrians from Barwar and western Hakkar use "dh" like the English "this".
Other things I've noticed is mostly vocabulary. Comparing some words between Barwari(that's generally much closer to Alqosh, Tel Kepe, Mangeshe and so on) and Urmi. In these examples we use the exact words of Urmi
Urmi-ftarta, Barwar-tamta = breakfast
Urmi-depna, Barwar-gota = side
Urmi-supra, Barwar-chuchatha = sparrow
Urmi-qedamta, Barwar-Mbadla = morning


That's very interesting. I am so interested in the origin of all of these words in different dialects - especially when they seem to have cognates in Hebrew and Arabic.

I don't know why I feel this, but Hebrew seems like a middle ground between Sureth and Arabic.


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