Coptic/Egyptian

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Re: Coptic/Egyptian

Postby mōdgethanc » 2010-12-23, 15:18

I have been quite interested in Coptic for sometime (and by proxy Ancient Egyptian).
Aren't these are different as Old Latin and French?
Actually I plan on learning Coptic after I'm done with Classical Hebrew (or Biblical if you prefer).
Biblical refers only to the Hebrew idiom used in the Bible. Classical probably makes more sense, because it contains all of the rabbinical writings used during ancient times. That leaves you with a much broader vocabulary (the vocabulary of the Bible is noticeably sparse, although there are a lot of words we still don't know the meaning of).
The Celtic languages aren't known for being used primarily by Christians (besides, they're Protestants! That guy is Catholic!)
All Irish people are Protestants? What the heck are they complaining about, then?!

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Re: Coptic/Egyptian

Postby księżycowy » 2010-12-23, 15:37

Do you do this everywhere? Don't get me wrong, a welcome the good question from time to time, but it seems to me you do it a little too much. But whatever . . . I'll humor you.
Talib wrote:Aren't these are different as Old Latin and French?

Perhaps. They are different stages of the same language. The only reason Coptic is perhaps more divergent is because of the influence of Ancient (or more correctly Koine) Greek.
Biblical refers only to the Hebrew idiom used in the Bible. Classical probably makes more sense, because it contains all of the rabbinical writings used during ancient times. That leaves you with a much broader vocabulary (the vocabulary of the Bible is noticeably sparse, although there are a lot of words we still don't know the meaning of).

I actually fully agree with that. That's why I prefer calling it Classical Hebrew, but some people may prefer Biblical, hence what I said.
The Celtic languages aren't known for being used primarily by Christians (besides, they're Protestants! That guy is Catholic!)
All Irish people are Protestants? What the heck are they complaining about, then?!

Actually the Irish are primarily Catholic.

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Re: Coptic/Egyptian

Postby Karavinka » 2010-12-23, 23:48

Biblical refers only to the Hebrew idiom used in the Bible. Classical probably makes more sense, because it contains all of the rabbinical writings used during ancient times. That leaves you with a much broader vocabulary (the vocabulary of the Bible is noticeably sparse, although there are a lot of words we still don't know the meaning of).

I actually fully agree with that. That's why I prefer calling it Classical Hebrew, but some people may prefer Biblical, hence what I said.


Okay, but keep in mind that Rabbinical Hebrew grammatical forms sometimes differ from Biblical. Your first Hebrew book will (most likely) teach you something distinctively "Biblical" rather than a broader "Classical" Hebrew. (I still consider myself a n00b in Hebrew, and I'm focusing mostly on the grammar to get the forms right so I can plug in vocabs.)

A few random differences I noted from Hebrew chapter of Ancient Languages of Syria-Palestine:
* anoki as first person pronoun disappears rather completely in RH
* masculine plural -im changes to -in, but this is dialectal rather than historical. Archaic Hebrew in Judges 5 contains -in plural as well
* second person feminine plural imperative disappears and the masculine takes over
* hop'al sometimes appears as huph'al, in analogy of pi'el - pu'al
* hitpa'el sometimes appears s nitpa'el, in confusion with nip'al

etc.

Though I wouldn't know anything about the Coptic verbal forms (yet), I have been quite interested in Coptic for sometime (and by proxy Ancient Egyptian).


As for the Coptic verbs: the verb stem never changes. This is a good news. It does have more tenses but formed rather simply by adding a few particles here and there. e.g:

Present: ti.nau (I see) k.nau (you (sg.) see), f.nau (he sees), s.nau (she sees) etc.
Future: ti.na.nau (I will see), k.na.nau, f.na.nau, s.na.nau, etc.
Perfect: a.i.nau (I saw), a.k.nau, a.f.nau, a.s.nau, etc.
Aorist: sha.i.nau (I saw), sha.k.nau, sha.f.nau, sha.s.nau, etc.

As long as you remember what prefix to use, Coptic verbs should give you much less headache than other Semitic ones. (Though the noun strings can drive you crazy, with that goddamn (e)n- prefix which could mean so many things...)



And I'd appreciate if anyone could give me a tip about how to deal with the hieroglyphs. I don't want to spend five minutes drawing a vulcan or owl to write a single grapheme.
Last edited by Karavinka on 2010-12-24, 0:11, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Coptic/Egyptian

Postby mōdgethanc » 2010-12-23, 23:52

Do you do this everywhere?
Do what?
I actually fully agree with that. That's why I prefer calling it Classical Hebrew, but some people may prefer Biblical, hence what I said.
Nothing wrong with the term "Biblical", just as long as we understand it only refers to the Bible. A lot of pre-modern Hebrew was written besides that.
Actually the Irish are primarily Catholic.
That was the joke.

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Re: Coptic/Egyptian

Postby księżycowy » 2010-12-24, 0:32

---
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Re: Coptic/Egyptian

Postby księżycowy » 2010-12-24, 0:40

Karavinka wrote:Okay, but keep in mind that Rabbinical Hebrew grammatical forms sometimes differ from Biblical. Your first Hebrew book will (most likely) teach you something distinctively "Biblical" rather than a broader "Classical" Hebrew. (I still consider myself a n00b in Hebrew, and I'm focusing mostly on the grammar to get the forms right so I can plug in vocabs.)

Actually the book I have does go over the broader spectrum of Classical Hebrew forms. In fact the book is called An Introduction to Classical Hebrew (by Vance). Though the book does mainly go over exercises and readings from the Bible, it also does do some stuff like readings from the Lachish Letters. Haven't gotten far enough to really know how much non-biblical content is goes into though. Still just mostly working on the writing system right now.

A few random differences I noted from Hebrew chapter of Ancient Languages of Syria-Palestine:
* anoki as first person pronoun disappears rather completely in RH
* masculine plural -im changes to -in, but this is dialectal rather than historical. Archaic Hebrew in Judges 5 contains -in plural as well
* second person feminine plural imperative disappears and the masculine takes over
* hop'al sometimes appears as huph'al, in analogy of pi'el - pu'al
* hitpa'el sometimes appears s nitpa'el, in confusion with nip'al

etc.

Though I wouldn't know anything about the Coptic verbal forms (yet), I have been quite interested in Coptic for sometime (and by proxy Ancient Egyptian).


As for the Coptic verbs: the verb stem never changes. This is a good news. It does have more tenses but formed rather simply by adding a few particles here and there. e.g:

Present: ti.nau (I see) k.nau (you (sg.) see), f.nau (he sees), s.nau (she sees) etc.
Future: ti.na.nau (I will see), k.na.nau, f.na.nau, s.na.nau, etc.
Perfect: a.i.nau (I saw), a.k.nau, a.f.nau, a.s.nau, etc.
Aorist: sha.i.nau (I saw), sha.k.nau, sha.f.nau, sha.s.nau, etc.

As long as you remember what prefix to use, Coptic verbs should give you much less headache than other Semitic ones. (Though the noun strings can drive you crazy, with that goddamn (e)n- prefix which could mean so many things...)

Thanks for the info! :)

I've been eying the Coptic textbook by Lambdin. Anyone know if it's any good?

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Re: Coptic/Egyptian

Postby Karavinka » 2010-12-24, 1:46

księżycowy wrote:Actually the book I have does go over the broader spectrum of Classical Hebrew forms. In fact the book is called An Introduction to Classical Hebrew (by Vance). Though the book does mainly go over exercises and readings from the Bible, it also does do some stuff like readings from the Lachish Letters. Haven't gotten far enough to really know how much non-biblical content is goes into though. Still just mostly working on the writing system right now.


That's nice, I'd like to know if that book goes deep into the Rabbinic. Ignore what the modern Israeli Hebrew speakers tell you. Vowel marks are important!

I've been eying the Coptic textbook by Lambdin. Anyone know if it's any good?


I haven't seen Lambdin's Coptic myself, but I'm considering getting it. I have used his books for Gothic and I'm using his Biblical Hebrew and they were both wonderful. If his Coptic book lives up to his name, it should be good... But beware, Lambdin is not afraid to get technical. I used other books before tackling Lambdin.

The one that I'm currently using is Coptic in 20 Lessons by Layton. The first half of the book is entirely about nouns and nominal phrases, you don't see a single verb there. The other half gives you the verbs - it looks like he just mapped his A Coptic Grammar with Chrestomathy in lesson formats. Layton (probably) goes into less details than Lambdin, and that's why I'm using his book before buying Lambdin's....
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Re: Coptic/Egyptian

Postby księżycowy » 2010-12-24, 11:15

Karavinka wrote:That's nice, I'd like to know if that book goes deep into the Rabbinic. Ignore what the modern Israeli Hebrew speakers tell you. Vowel marks are important!

I'll certainly let you know if it does or not. And don't worry, I'm learning the vowel markers!

I haven't seen Lambdin's Coptic myself, but I'm considering getting it. I have used his books for Gothic and I'm using his Biblical Hebrew and they were both wonderful. If his Coptic book lives up to his name, it should be good... But beware, Lambdin is not afraid to get technical. I used other books before tackling Lambdin.

I hadn't realized that he did one on Biblical Hebrew. Though I am going to get his one on Gothic.

The one that I'm currently using is Coptic in 20 Lessons by Layton. The first half of the book is entirely about nouns and nominal phrases, you don't see a single verb there. The other half gives you the verbs - it looks like he just mapped his A Coptic Grammar with Chrestomathy in lesson formats. Layton (probably) goes into less details than Lambdin, and that's why I'm using his book before buying Lambdin's....

That did look like a good text too. Maybe I'll do the same and buy both, working through the Coptic in 20 Lessons book first.

Once again, thanks for the info!

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Re: Coptic/Egyptian

Postby ILuvEire » 2010-12-25, 3:37

Jaakuuta, did you know that you created another Egyptian thread like a year ago? viewtopic.php?f=99&t=21291 :lol:
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Re: Coptic/Egyptian

Postby księżycowy » 2010-12-25, 12:13

ILuvEire wrote:Jaakuuta, did you know that you created another Egyptian thread like a year ago? viewtopic.php?f=99&t=21291 :lol:
i noticed that yesterday myself :P

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Re: Coptic/Egyptian

Postby księżycowy » 2011-01-02, 20:53

Karavinka wrote:I haven't seen Lambdin's Coptic myself, but I'm considering getting it. I have used his books for Gothic and I'm using his Biblical Hebrew and they were both wonderful.

Does his book on Hebrew use the Hebrew script, transliteration, or both?
(Not to take over the thread with talk about Hebrew. :P)

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Re: Coptic/Egyptian

Postby mōdgethanc » 2011-01-02, 21:11

Both, with full niqqud.

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Re: Coptic/Egyptian

Postby księżycowy » 2011-01-02, 22:09

Good, I was beginning to worry after reading some reviews on Amazon. Not that I'm worried, I still have my other book!
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Re: Coptic/Egyptian

Postby mōdgethanc » 2011-01-02, 22:26

Why do you want to learn Biblical Hebrew? It's only useful for religious purposes.

... jesus, you have a lot of languages listed in your profile, and you haven't started on any of them? Insanity. Here, *allow me to cut them down for you:


Albanian (Shqipe)
Aleut (Unangam Tunuu)
Amharic (አማርኛ)
Apache (Ndee biyati')
Arabic, Standard (العربية - فصحى)
Aramaic (אַרָמִית)
Armenian (Հայերեն)
Basque (Euskara)
Cantonese [Traditional script] (粵語)
Cherokee (ᏣᎳᎩ)
Classical Chinese (文言文)
Classical Japanese
Coptic (ⲙⲛⲧⲣⲙⲛⲕⲏⲙⲉ)
Estonian (Eesti)
French (Français)
Georgian (ქართული)
German (Deutsch)
Gothic (Gutiska)
Greek, ancient (Ἑλληνική)
Hebrew, Biblical (עברית מקראית)
Hmong (Hmoob)
Inupiatun
Irish Gaelic (Gaeilge)
Japanese (日本語)
Korean (한국어)
Lakota (Lakȟótiyapi)
Lao (ພງສງລງວ)
Latin (lingua latīna)
Lithuanian (Lietuvių)
Lushootseed (dxʷləšucid)
Mandarin Chinese [Simplified script] (汉语)
Mohawk (Kanien’kéha)
Mongolian (Монгол хэл)
Navajo (Diné bizaad)
Old English
Old Irish (Goídelc)
Pashto (پښتو)
Polish (Polski)
Romanian (Română)
Russian (Русский)
Somali (Soomaali)
Syriac (ܣܘܪܝܝܐ)
Tibetan (བོད་སྐད་)
Vietnamese (Tiếng Việt)
Warlpiri
Yoruba (Yorùbá)
Yup’ik
Zulu (isiZulu)
There, that's much more achievable, but even that would be hard!

*Note: This is humour.
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Re: Coptic/Egyptian

Postby mōdgethanc » 2011-01-02, 22:28

.
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Re: Coptic/Egyptian

Postby księżycowy » 2011-01-02, 23:13

Well, I am interested in religion (as an academic subject), so it seems like a good idea to study some Biblical Hebrew.

And yeah, I do have quite a few languages in my profile. I really haven't worked on too many of them, but I'll get around to a few. By no means to I actually intend to get around to all of them (at least not to a higher level then beginner) I only plan on getting to an advanced level (c-1 or there-abouts) with a few.

[Aw man! You took out all the fun ones! :P]

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Re: Coptic/Egyptian

Postby Karavinka » 2011-01-02, 23:45

Talib, I think it's a bit rude to tell someone what they can and cannot learn. Sure, księżycowy could use some more focus but <s>ing off someone else's wishlist isn't terribly nice either. ;)

A decent knowledge of Biblical Hebrew can transfer back to (or maybe "forward" to!) Modern Hebrew and vice versa, so it wouldn't be useless should he decide to take on some Modern version as well. Biblical vocab is much smaller than Modern one, of course and this is a boon as well. There are lots more study editions of Biblical Hebrew texts than Modern Hebrew texts as well.. so even from a learner's perspective it wouldn't be a terrible idea. (And I'm using both modern and biblical textbooks)

And after all, what would be wrong even if there was no Modern Hebrew and the language was entirely liturgical? You're on the thread "Coptic/Egyptian" and that's worse than Biblical Hebrew... :p
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Re: Coptic/Egyptian

Postby księżycowy » 2011-01-02, 23:53

Karavinka wrote:Talib, I think it's a bit rude to tell someone what they can and cannot learn. Sure, księżycowy could use some more focus but <s>ing off someone else's wishlist isn't terribly nice either. ;)

Thank you Karavinka. :)

And yes, I admit I could use some more focus. But I'd like to think I've gotten better!

Plus it's not entirely accurate to say I haven't started any of them yet. Sure I haven't given any a star yet, but I'm not going to say I'm proficient to even a beginning level until I actually am! I just started the ones on my sig a month or so ago! I do have a life and I'm not interested in linguistics in a serious faculty, so I'm not spending every waking hour learning languages are anything like that. Nor do I do languages for any other reason then for a hobby. Not that I feel I have to justify myself to you Talib.

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Re: Coptic/Egyptian

Postby mōdgethanc » 2011-01-03, 1:29

As I explicitly noted in my post so that this precise thing wouldn't happen, it was a joke.

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Re: Coptic/Egyptian

Postby księżycowy » 2011-01-03, 1:31

Talib wrote:As I explicitly noted in my post so that this precise thing wouldn't happen, it was a joke.

I saw. Just felt like saying it anyway. :twisted:


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