Hungarian and Sumerian?

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Re: Hungarian and Sumerian?

Postby linguoboy » 2012-06-05, 20:15

Parasztember wrote:
linguoboy wrote:What is your source for this? Have you actually seen a Yakut speak to an Anatolian?

My main source for this is hungarian language texts, but I tink it's meaningless to quote.

Well, what are these texts based on? Did someone actually run an experiment, did they witness Anatolian tourists talking to Yakuts, what?
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Re: Hungarian and Sumerian?

Postby Parasztember » 2012-06-05, 20:48

Ludwig Whitby wrote:They are related, but one language is from the Siberian and the other from the Oghuz group, I doubt that they are so similar. Numbers don't really mean much, btw. Czech and Serbian have almost identical numbers, yet I wouldn't be able to have a meaningful conversation with a Czech.


Yes, it would be justified by only a Turk and Yakut speaker. But they're relate in lingustic point of view.

Ludwig Whitby wrote:Serbs believe all kinds of things, such as that we are the oldest people in the world and that we once had a great empire that stretched on 3 continents. The reason you don't know about it is because you have been taught the Germanic-school history supported by the serbophobic Vatican and the Jewish lobby.


The nationalism is very heavy in whole Eastern-Europe, not only in Serbia.
For example in Hungary the "deep hungarians" believe the Austrian rulers and their Germanic scientifics forced us the Finno-Ugric pseudo- scientific theory, from that cause to conceal our Scythian- Sumerian origin and eliminate our grandious national identity.
What a pity, to the conservation of Uralic-Altaic languages is take place only on this level.

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Re: Hungarian and Sumerian?

Postby linguoboy » 2012-06-05, 20:58

Parasztember wrote:Yes, it would be justified by only a Turk and Yakut speaker. But they're relate in lingustic point of view.

So are Irish and Iranian. How many Dubliners have you seen chatting away with monolingual Tehranis without recourse to interpreters?
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Re: Hungarian and Sumerian?

Postby Parasztember » 2012-06-05, 21:16

linguoboy wrote:So are Irish and Iranian. How many Dubliners have you seen chatting away with monolingual Tehranis without recourse to interpreters?


No, "Turkic" as such language family is equal like "German" language family. These languages more relate like the "Indoeuropeans" as a whole. Indoeuropean as such resemble to Altaic.
The Korean is very far to Turkic, but this is Altaic too,for example

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Re: Hungarian and Sumerian?

Postby linguoboy » 2012-06-05, 21:21

Parasztember wrote:No, "Turkic" as such language family is equal like "German" language family.

I don't know any English-speakers who can understand Dutch, German, Swedish, etc. without having made a study of them first.

The point is that you can't draw conclusions about mutual intelligibility simply based on the fact that two languages are related. You need to actually test comprehensibility in real situations with real speakers. Unless someone has done this for Yakut and Anatolian Turkish, there's no sense in even bringing the matter up.
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Re: Hungarian and Sumerian?

Postby Karavinka » 2012-06-07, 7:49

Parasztember wrote:No, "Turkic" as such language family is equal like "German" language family. These languages more relate like the "Indoeuropeans" as a whole. Indoeuropean as such resemble to Altaic.
The Korean is very far to Turkic, but this is Altaic too,for example


First. Altaic does not exist.

I'm a native speaker of Korean, and I speak Japanese at a fairly advanced level, I have done a fair amount of reading in Manchu and did a cursory overview of Classical Mongolian, just some grammatical endings and so on. I also have a grammar for Evenki and Daur, which I read through. That's like 4 out of five branches from "Altaic" family, and still I don't understand a word of Turkish. Not to mention anything Uralic. "Altaic" doesn't exist, neither does "Ural-Altaic."

The supposed "Altaic" langauges - Turkic, Mongolic, Tungusic, Korean and Japonic - do share similar structures, but the lexical correspondence across all five is close to nil. And Sumerian is definitely not even remotely "Altaic" even in its structural properties. Do these people even have a slightest idea of Sumerian grammar?

Both "Altaic" and "Uralic" languages attach suffixes to the verb root, for example. (Correct me if I'm wrong with Uralic) Let me show you a Sumerian verb chain:

e-ne Inanna-da hu-mu-da-an-til (from Aratta poem, slightly simplified)

ene : a 3sg personal pronoun. "he"
Inanna : divine name, Inanna
-da : comitative case, "with"

hu- : modal prefix, a wish or supposition, "he may ..."
mu- : conjugation prefix, no equivalent to any known language, we don't even know what it really does.
da- : this cross-references the dative patient in "Inanna-da," like "to with-live with inanna" or "mit Inanna mitwohnen." This is redundant, but still a feature of Sumerian.
-n : this cross-references the agent, "ene." Again, this is redundant in a way, since there is "ene" already and an unmarked 3sg verb ending as well.
til : live. verb root.
-∅ : the unmarked form is 3sg, as explained above.

Now, Sumerian is an agglutinating langauge like "Altaic", Uralic or even Dravidian, but that kind of typological generalizations don't really go far. Sumerian is a postpositional langauge (Inanna-da), and that is shared between Sumerian and both "Altaic" and Uralic. But once you look at the verb chain, both "Altaic" and Uralic agglutinate with suffixes, while you see more prefixes in Sumerian. Further, the way that Sumerian prefixes cross-reference the nominal phrases almost borders on incorporation, which is not a characteristic of neither "Altaic" nor Uralic.

This is my bottom line: neither the vocabulary nor the structure of Sumerian is similar enough to the known language families. I haven't studied Hungarian or a Uralic language in depth, so if you think you can find these kinds of phenomena in Uralic, then please enlighten me.
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Re: Hungarian and Sumerian?

Postby onurdolar » 2012-06-07, 19:22

After reading this topic i've decided to see how much of Sakha/Yakut language i can understand and checked online. After 30 minutes of focused struggle listening to conversations and songs in Yakut language my conclusion is; i couldn't understand even one word. Even with subtitles Yakut is totally incomprehensible to my native anatolian turkish ears. I understand more from Portugese conversations with my A2 italian and no knowledge of portugese whatsoever.

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Re: Hungarian and Sumerian?

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2012-06-07, 20:42

But understanding is in itself not relevant for language families, so that is beside the point. Swedish and Russian are said to be related, and I do not understand Russian at all, except for common international words.

Why has the Uralic-Sumerian connection originally been considered? Is there something, anything, that points in that direction?
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Re: Hungarian and Sumerian?

Postby linguoboy » 2012-06-07, 22:20

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:But understanding is in itself not relevant for language families, so that is beside the point.

I'm not sure why Parasztember even brought up the relationship between Turkish and Yakut except to counter Mongol's scepticism about branches of the same family or phylum being so far-flung. The claim about intelligibility is superfluous.

From what I can tell, the Uralic-Sumerian hypothesis originated in Hungary and was the work of nationalists who wanted to lay claim to a more glorious civilisation than being nomadic reindeer herders. Sumerian seems to have been singled out for its agglutinative structure (which is not at all distinctive cross-linguistically, but would seem so from a 19th-century Eurocentric point of view).
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Re: Hungarian and Sumerian?

Postby onurdolar » 2012-06-08, 6:11

Well it is quite common among nationalists to try find relations with their cultures and ancient civilizations. I know that Turkish government spent tons of money and established institutions in order to find roots of Turkish people in Sumerian and Hitite civilizations in order to proove that we were not nomads but civilizied people since 2000 BC. In fact there still are sumerology and hititology institutes in Ankara. They stopped claiming Sumerian is ancient Turkish language but they still are working. And recently some so called historians claimed that ancient Indus Valley civilization and also the Aryans are ancestors of Turks. Some even claimed nordic runes are actually Turkic Orkhon Script. There are no limits to what fanatics can imagine.

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Re: Hungarian and Sumerian?

Postby Parasztember » 2012-06-08, 9:24

Karavinka wrote:
Parasztember wrote:First. Altaic does not exist.


You can't accept the Altaic theory, but accept the Uralic theory without critics.

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Re: Hungarian and Sumerian?

Postby Parasztember » 2012-06-08, 10:27

onurdolar wrote:After reading this topic i've decided to see how much of Sakha/Yakut language i can understand and checked online. After 30 minutes of focused struggle listening to conversations and songs in Yakut language my conclusion is; i couldn't understand even one word. Even with subtitles Yakut is totally incomprehensible to my native anatolian turkish ears. I understand more from Portugese conversations with my A2 italian and no knowledge of portugese whatsoever.


It's seems like a legend, that all of language in turkic familiy have mutual intelligibility. I read it some books, and sites, for instance the turkmen comprehend turkish, and yakut comprehend turkic (sic!). It may be an excessive example.
But I think they have very lot of dialect, or, they have completely other languages?

I find an interesting article:
http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2010 ... languages/

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Re: Hungarian and Sumerian?

Postby onurdolar » 2012-06-08, 12:57

Parasztember wrote:
onurdolar wrote:After reading this topic i've decided to see how much of Sakha/Yakut language i can understand and checked online. After 30 minutes of focused struggle listening to conversations and songs in Yakut language my conclusion is; i couldn't understand even one word. Even with subtitles Yakut is totally incomprehensible to my native anatolian turkish ears. I understand more from Portugese conversations with my A2 italian and no knowledge of portugese whatsoever.


It's seems like a legend, that all of language in turkic familiy have mutual intelligibility. I read it some books, and sites, for instance the turkmen comprehend turkish, and yakut comprehend turkic (sic!). It may be an excessive example.
But I think they have very lot of dialect, or, they have completely other languages?

I find an interesting article:
http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2010 ... languages/



Speaking from live experience what is written in that article is true. At least for parts regarding Turkish. However intelligibility between Azeri and Turkish is quite higher now than it was because of increased contact. Almost every Azeri i've met is capable of speaking Turkish and Turks began to understand more Azeri with help Azeri TV.

edit: a fun fact in first few summits of Organization of Turkic Speaking Countries; the summits were held in Russian.

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Re: Hungarian and Sumerian?

Postby linguoboy » 2012-06-08, 13:18

Parasztember wrote:
Karavinka wrote:
Parasztember wrote:First. Altaic does not exist.

You can't accept the Altaic theory, but accept the Uralic theory without critics.

Do you have any criticisms of the Indo-European theory you'd like to share? I'll wager you don't, because the Indo-European theory is based on very clear evidence. So is the Uralic theory. Altaic is harder to prove because of the greater time depth and the long history of interchange (so it can be difficult to tell the difference between inherited common features and very old borrowings). I'm less sceptical of Altaic unity than Karavinka, but I readily acknowledge that it hasn't been proven to everyone's satisfaction yet.
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Re: Hungarian and Sumerian?

Postby ILuvEire » 2012-06-09, 18:39

Karavinka wrote:
Parasztember wrote:No, "Turkic" as such language family is equal like "German" language family. These languages more relate like the "Indoeuropeans" as a whole. Indoeuropean as such resemble to Altaic.
The Korean is very far to Turkic, but this is Altaic too,for example


First. Altaic does not exist.

I'm a native speaker of Korean, and I speak Japanese at a fairly advanced level, I have done a fair amount of reading in Manchu and did a cursory overview of Classical Mongolian, just some grammatical endings and so on. I also have a grammar for Evenki and Daur, which I read through. That's like 4 out of five branches from "Altaic" family, and still I don't understand a word of Turkish. Not to mention anything Uralic. "Altaic" doesn't exist, neither does "Ural-Altaic."

The supposed "Altaic" langauges - Turkic, Mongolic, Tungusic, Korean and Japonic - do share similar structures, but the lexical correspondence across all five is close to nil. And Sumerian is definitely not even remotely "Altaic" even in its structural properties. Do these people even have a slightest idea of Sumerian grammar?

Both "Altaic" and "Uralic" languages attach suffixes to the verb root, for example. (Correct me if I'm wrong with Uralic) Let me show you a Sumerian verb chain:

e-ne Inanna-da hu-mu-da-an-til (from Aratta poem, slightly simplified)

ene : a 3sg personal pronoun. "he"
Inanna : divine name, Inanna
-da : comitative case, "with"

hu- : modal prefix, a wish or supposition, "he may ..."
mu- : conjugation prefix, no equivalent to any known language, we don't even know what it really does.
da- : this cross-references the dative patient in "Inanna-da," like "to with-live with inanna" or "mit Inanna mitwohnen." This is redundant, but still a feature of Sumerian.
-n : this cross-references the agent, "ene." Again, this is redundant in a way, since there is "ene" already and an unmarked 3sg verb ending as well.
til : live. verb root.
-∅ : the unmarked form is 3sg, as explained above.

Now, Sumerian is an agglutinating langauge like "Altaic", Uralic or even Dravidian, but that kind of typological generalizations don't really go far. Sumerian is a postpositional langauge (Inanna-da), and that is shared between Sumerian and both "Altaic" and Uralic. But once you look at the verb chain, both "Altaic" and Uralic agglutinate with suffixes, while you see more prefixes in Sumerian. Further, the way that Sumerian prefixes cross-reference the nominal phrases almost borders on incorporation, which is not a characteristic of neither "Altaic" nor Uralic.

This is my bottom line: neither the vocabulary nor the structure of Sumerian is similar enough to the known language families. I haven't studied Hungarian or a Uralic language in depth, so if you think you can find these kinds of phenomena in Uralic, then please enlighten me.
I've mostly kept out of this thread because I thought that I didn't have sufficient linguistic knowledge to participate, but I am quickly realizing that that doesn't seem to be the case. Part of my objection to your (the proponents of a Sumerian-Hungarian language family) theory seems to be a lack of understanding of your own language. There are simple structural differences between the two languages that deny any sort of relationship to each other.

Sumerian splits its nouns in to two classes--human and non-human. Hungarian has no genders, and furthermore, one can assume that it has never had genders in its history, because, thus far, no Uralic language has been discovered with anything like a gender system, particularly one as non-European as Sumerian's. Along with that, both languages (arguably) have a system of vowel harmony, but the basic structure is completely different; Sumerian's is based on vowel height, while Uralic languages' harmony is based on backness. I also think that there's something to be said about the fact that Proto-Uralic was a nominative-accusative language, while Sumerian was a well defined split ergative language.

Anyway, this is just my two cents, but I really think that this entire hypothesis is broken down when you start to move beyond cognates and in to the actual structure of the languages.
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Re: Hungarian and Sumerian?

Postby Parasztember » 2012-06-10, 5:25

linguoboy wrote:Do you have any criticisms of the Indo-European theory you'd like to share? I'll wager you don't, because the Indo-European theory is based on very clear evidence. So is the Uralic theory. Altaic is harder to prove because of the greater time depth and the long history of interchange (so it can be difficult to tell the difference between inherited common features and very old borrowings). I'm less sceptical of Altaic unity than Karavinka, but I readily acknowledge that it hasn't been proven to everyone's satisfaction yet.


Yes, I agree, that Indo-European theory is would based on very clear evidence, but the Uralic theory isn't.
The main point is that the hypothetic proto Indo-European language could reconstructed from ancient written texts, for example Sanskrit, ancient Greek ancient Persian, Latin etc.,that based on language comparison- but ancient "Uralic" or "Finno-Ugric" texts has never been exist.
Moreover, the first Hugarian written language vestige originated in the 11 th century, the first Finnic originated in the 16th century, which is more or less comprehensible in the nowadays speak Hungarian and Finn. But, the "Uralic" school's main thesis, that the more ancient languages in this branch are the North-Eastern European Uralic, and some Western- Siberian languages.
This tiny language groups have written language vestiges only from the 18-19th century. The hypothetic Proto-Uralic language reconstruction is based on clearly linguistic speculation, as NOT exist comparable written texts.
Even the first Mansi (the most relate language of Hungarian, according, the Uralic school) written texts, that had collected in the middle of the 19 the century is became completely incomprehensible to the end of the 19 th century, because this language change amazing flexible, mainly the Russian and Tatar influence. And nowadays, the number of Mansi speakers is circa 2-3000, whose use 4 different dialect, and between of these aren't mutual intelligibility!
Against of this, the Hungarian has 14-15 million native speakers, and Hungarian pratically hasn't any separated dialects, all of the speakers comprehend each other relatively easy.

The "Uralic" method is completely similar way, if you would explore the Proto-Latin from the Moldavian-Romanian dialect, and completely ignore the Ancient-Latin, and morover if you say the Proto-Indouropean is based on Albanian, not the Sanskrit for example.
But the main method of the "Uralic" school is the "sound shift method", which is originated, from the Indoeuropean linguistic school, and on this basis have only a few, some hundred mutual words between the "Proto Finno-Ugric" and Hungarian, and more less between the Hungarian and the whole Uralic group.
This prove only that the hungarian vocabulary contain only 10 percent Finno-Ugric (Uralic) originate words, and contain circa 40 percent Turkic, and Indo-Eurpean loanwords, and in this way the Hungarian vocabulary contain 50 percent completely unknown originated words (!)
This was only a few example, cos this topic is worth several volume of books.

Summarizing: I don't want to deny, that the hypothetic Uralic, and Finno-Ugric languages had haven't any relate to Hungarian. But in historical, cultural and genetical manner apparently not exist mutuallity of these groups and Hungarian, and exist only a few relationship by the word comparisons.
It's a wrong theory of the "Proto-Uralic" language and common homeland, but these languages contacted in other manner.

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Re: Hungarian and Sumerian?

Postby chung » 2012-08-24, 18:31

parasztember, Hungarian is (or best classifiable) as an Uralic language. HOWEVER just because the language is treated this way, it doesn't imply some sort of automatic ethnic connection which is what I think bothers nationalist Hungarians or those who insist that Hungarians have ethnic kinship with people who do not speak Uralic languages (usually Scythians, Turks or Sumerians). This all stems from the faulty but persistent idea that language is an automatic marker for ethnicity or ethnic ancestry. It obviously fails to account for language shift / assimilation (e.g. the Bulgars who most likely spoke something like "Old Chuvash" got assimilated to the speakers of some kind of Balkan Slavonic when they settled in the Balkans in the Dark Ages).

Johanna Laakso's summary represents the typical interpretation as someone who specializes in the Finno-Ugric languages. Namely that linguistic relationship does not necessarily align with ethnic relationship/close biological similarity (I have put in red the parts which are most relevant to this disconnection between ethnicity and language)

Johanna Laakso wrote:
“The Finno-Ugric relatedness is just an ideological (for example, Imperialist-Bolshevist) conspiracy against Hungarians.”

This view has been propagated by some Hungarians ever since the Finno-Ugric relatedness was discovered. The motives are simple: We don't want to be related with primitive nomadic Siberian tribes, we want to be related with peoples who have earned themselves fame and glory, or at least have a war-like past.

This view is also motivated by a fundamental misunderstanding deeply rooted in the National Romanticism. This ideology that was central for the national awakening of many European peoples, Hungarians and Finns included, was based on the idea of a unitary nationhood, expressing itself in the history, culture, and language of the people in question. In this thought, language, culture, and race melted together into an indivisible whole, the role of language as the most important characteristic of a nation was vastly exaggerated, and generations after generations were taught never to question the -- largely language-based -- definitions of a nation.

However, language is only one of the criteria of nationhood, and nationhood is not an indivisible whole. All peoples are genetically “mixtures” of different populations (and from the viewpoint of genetics, mixture of genes -- not “purity of race” -- is something very positive!), all cultures are “mixtures” (Kulturgut ist Lehngut), and all nations are products of historical processes. 1500 years ago there were no “Hungarians”, no “Finns”, no “Germans”, no “French”, etc., in the present-day sense.

The mechanisms by which language is transmitted are fundamentally different from those of cultural or genetic transmission, which means that people can be genetically related (have some ancestors in common) or culturally “related” (have a significant amount of elements of a common origin in their cultures) without speaking languages that are related (i.e. descend from a common proto-language), or vice versa. This means that the Finno-Ugric relatedness does not imply a particularly close genetic relatedness between the present-day speakers, and it does not mean that speakers of present-day Finno-Ugric languages would share a “Finno-Ugric culture” deeply different from its neighbours.

This also means that there may be a lot of genetic and cultural relatedness between some Finno-Ugric and Turkic peoples. No serious Finno-Ugrist has ever tried to refute this.

Source: Finno-Ugric and Turkic?


As to your comments on language, I'll deal with them in smaller parts since you touch on a lot of points:

parasztember wrote:

Yes, I agree, that Indo-European theory is would based on very clear evidence, but the Uralic theory isn't.


Yes and no. IE linguistics is fairly detailed and covers a lot of ground but there are still unresolved problems or areas (e.g. What is the nature of the intra-relationship of the Paleo-Balkan languages such as Dacian, Illyrian and Ancient Macedonian? Can we assign a "homeland" for Proto IE?). Uralic linguistics is in a comparable position. There are some problems regarding the internal classification of Uralic (including the need to conceive of Finno-Ugric) as summarized by Tapani Salminen in his paper "Problems in the taxonomy of the Uralic languages in the light of modern comparative studies", but he doesn't reject Uralic.

parasztember wrote:

The main point is that the hypothetic proto Indo-European language could reconstructed from ancient written texts, for example Sanskrit, ancient Greek ancient Persian, Latin etc.,that based on language comparison- but ancient "Uralic" or "Finno-Ugric" texts has never been exist.
Moreover, the first Hugarian written language vestige originated in the 11 th century, the first Finnic originated in the 16th century, which is more or less comprehensible in the nowadays speak Hungarian and Finn. But, the "Uralic" school's main thesis, that the more ancient languages in this branch are the North-Eastern European Uralic, and some Western- Siberian languages.
This tiny language groups have written language vestiges only from the 18-19th century. The hypothetic Proto-Uralic language reconstruction is based on clearly linguistic speculation, as NOT exist comparable written texts.


This is somewhat true but in a certain way it's a strawman. Proto-IE is hypothetical (arguably speculative) just as Proto-Uralic is. Remember that any reconstructed language depends on the sample of modern languages and attestations available. As far as I'm concerned and in somewhat crude terms, Proto-IE and Proto-Uralic are just educated guesswork or speculation derived from research done by a handful of language nerds*. These proto-languages "exist" because of what is known today and are in a bit of a one-way relationship since you can't really say that because Proto-language X had feature A, it then stands to reason that Daughter-languages X and Y have (or lacks) feature A when evidence in these Daughter-languages was used to posit the existence of feature Y in Proto-language X in the first place!

[*Some of whom we'd likely call amateurs when compared to what constitutes a professional linguist starting from the mid-20th century. The concepts of IE and Uralic were set in motion by non-linguists whose linguistic aptitude lay by virtue of their being multilingual rather than having a thorough grounding in comparative linguistic methods. The missionary G-L Coeurdoux's observations were the root of the IE concept while the observations of astronomer J. Sajnovics were behind the concept of Finno-Ugric (no linguist today would take seriously the rather unprofessional title where he has shown that Hungarian and Sami are identical as they are not (i.e. "Demonstratio Idioma Ungarorum et Lapponum idem esse"). However this doesn't mean that we can dismiss the Finno-Ugric linguistic relationship just because Sajnovics and intellectual successors such as Gyarmathi and Szinnyei published papers that drew on several proposed etymologies or genetic similarities which have been since rejected by modern scholars. Other evidence that they proposed passed through the "filter" of modern comparative linguistic methods.]

parasztember wrote:
Even the first Mansi (the most relate language of Hungarian, according, the Uralic school) written texts, that had collected in the middle of the 19 the century is became completely incomprehensible to the end of the 19 th century, because this language change amazing flexible, mainly the Russian and Tatar influence. And nowadays, the number of Mansi speakers is circa 2-3000, whose use 4 different dialect, and between of these aren't mutual intelligibility!
Against of this, the Hungarian has 14-15 million native speakers, and Hungarian pratically hasn't any separated dialects, all of the speakers comprehend each other relatively easy.


So what? Pluricentric English (350-400 million native speakers) is most closely related to the Frisian languages/dialects (0.5 million native speakers), but English is not mutually intelligible with Frisian, and mutual intelligibility among speakers of Frisian isn't total either. Size of the language communities and the degree of internal mutual intelligibility has nothing to do with external mutual intelligibility or degree/nature of external linguistic relationship. You're dismissing or downplaying a linguistic relationship by appealing to an ultimately irrelevant set of comparisons.

As to why Mansi dialects are held as being Hungarian's most closely related languages (I repeat that this should not be construed that Hungarians and Mansis show feel instant or special kinship as they're still irrefutably culturally and ethnically distinct, *duh*!), I'll follow karavinka's model where one goes past visually similar forms and compare features and structures (and show that the relationship is not that heavily reliant on phonology in reference to your claim that the existence of Uralic derives from the "sound-shift method".

1) Hungarian and Mansi use indefinite and definite conjugation with the latter extending the basic concept.

e.g.
Hungarian: eszünk "we eat" (indefinite); esszük "we eat [it/that/these/those]" (definite)

Mansi: teeγmen "we (dual) eat" (indefinite), teeγuw "we (plural) eat" (indefinite); teeγlamen "we (dual) eat [singular definite object]" (definite), teeγaγmen "we (dual) eat [dual definite object]" (definite), teeγanmen "we (dual) eat [plural definite object]" (definite); teeγluw "we (plural) eat [singular definite object] (definite), teeγaγuw "we (plural) eat [dual definite object]" (definite), teeγanuw "we (plural) eat [plural definite object]" (definite)

Turkic languages and Sumerian make no such distinction in the conjugation.

2) peculiarities in numerals:

Hungarian: két ~ kettő "two" (attribute ~ predicate)
Mansi: kit ~ kitəg "two" (attribute ~ predicate)

Hungarian: nyolc "eight"
Mansi: nyollow "eight"

Compared to what I gathered as the equivalents in Finnish (kaksi, kahdeksan), Turkish (iki, sekiz) and Sumerian (sini/min, ussu), the Hungarian-Mansi similarities are strongest and arguably most striking (i.e. the attribute ~ predicate difference in "2" only (Mari has attribute and predicate forms for most numerals i.e. not just for "2") and the construction of "eight")

3) similar or common locative suffixes

Hungarian: alól "from below"
Mansi: yoləl "from below"

4) lexemes shared by Hungarian with Mansi with no other convincing connections.

E.g.

Hungarian: fék "brake"; "grass"; "good"; meleg "warm"; szél "edge"
Mansi: pech "dozen bridle"; pom "grass"; jams, joms "good"; määli "warm"; sēl "shore"

5) Regular sound correspondences (disparaged by parasztember :twisted:) supporting positing of cognates. Here are examples of three out of about 25 sound correspondences:

- Hungarian nouns' non-initial -b- occurs where Mansi has -mp-

E.g.

Hungarian: eb "cur", hab "foam"
Mansi: ǟmp "dog", kump "wave"

- Hungarian nouns' non-initial -d- occurs where Mansi has -nt-

E.g.

Hungarian: had "military", ideg "nerve; [earlier: bowstring]", kedv "mood", d "goose"
Mansi: χōnt "army", jantǝŋ "bowstring", kantǝŋ "angry", lunt "goose"

- Hungarian nouns' with initial h- before a back-vowel occurs where Mansi has k-.

E.g.

Hungarian: hal "fish", háló "net", három "three"
Mansi: kōl "fish", kūlǝp "net", kūrǝm "three"

(Some of these examples were taken from a summary given to Christopher Culver in one of his courses for Finno-Ugric linguistics. Source)

parasztember wrote: The "Uralic" method is completely similar way, if you would explore the Proto-Latin from the Moldavian-Romanian dialect, and completely ignore the Ancient-Latin, and morover if you say the Proto-Indouropean is based on Albanian, not the Sanskrit for example.
But the main method of the "Uralic" school is the "sound shift method", which is originated, from the Indoeuropean linguistic school, and on this basis have only a few, some hundred mutual words between the "Proto Finno-Ugric" and Hungarian, and more less between the Hungarian and the whole Uralic group.
This prove only that the hungarian vocabulary contain only 10 percent Finno-Ugric (Uralic) originate words, and contain circa 40 percent Turkic, and Indo-Eurpean loanwords, and in this way the Hungarian vocabulary contain 50 percent completely unknown originated words (!)
This was only a few example, cos this topic is worth several volume of books.


Because of the heavy reliance on agglutination in Hungarian it's more meaningful to analyze word roots (or "word bushes" as conceived in the big old dictionary by Czuczor and Fogarasi) The linguist Istvan Kenesei gathers then that about 30% of word roots cannot be traced with a certain/known/convincing etymology, about 20% are traceable from each of Finno-Ugric and Slavonic, 10% from each of Germanic and Turkic, 5% from Latin or Ancient Greek and the remainder from other language groups. His figures are a far cry from your citing of 10% from Finno-Ugric/Uralic, 40% from Turkic and IE, and 50% of unknown/uncertain origin.

parasztember wrote:
Summarizing: I don't want to deny, that the hypothetic Uralic, and Finno-Ugric languages had haven't any relate to Hungarian. But in historical, cultural and genetical manner apparently not exist mutuallity of these groups and Hungarian, and exist only a few relationship by the word comparisons.

It's a wrong theory of the "Proto-Uralic" language and common homeland, but these languages contacted in other manner.


See Johanna Laakso's comments per the quote above.

language learner
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Re: Hungarian and Sumerian?

Postby language learner » 2012-08-24, 19:08

chung wrote:It obviously fails to account for language shift / assimilation (e.g. the Bulgars who most likely spoke something like "Old Chuvash" got assimilated to the speakers of some kind of Balkan Slavonic when they settled in the Balkans in the Dark Ages).
or who most likely did not - you have no firm evidences that Bulgarians ever spoke a related to Chuvash language.

chung
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Re: Hungarian and Sumerian?

Postby chung » 2012-08-24, 19:32

имен wrote:
chung wrote:It obviously fails to account for language shift / assimilation (e.g. the Bulgars who most likely spoke something like "Old Chuvash" got assimilated to the speakers of some kind of Balkan Slavonic when they settled in the Balkans in the Dark Ages).
or who most likely did not - you have no firm evidences that Bulgarians ever spoke a related to Chuvash language.


Your reply indicates conflation of Bulgars with Bulgarians yet there is a certain link between the two.

Notice that I posted that Bulgars most likely spoke "Old Chuvash" (if you prefer to call it Oghuric Turkic, that's probably not far off the mark either).

language learner
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Re: Hungarian and Sumerian?

Postby language learner » 2012-08-25, 6:28

chung wrote:Your reply indicates conflation of Bulgars with Bulgarians yet there is a certain link between the two.

Indeed the difference is artificially made.

chung wrote:Notice that I posted that Bulgars most likely spoke "Old Chuvash" (if you prefer to call it Oghuric Turkic, that's probably not far off the mark either).
There is no evidence that they ever spoke any turkic language either.


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