Hungarian and Sumerian?

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millenia
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Re: Másik Szumir mondat

Postby millenia » 2007-11-20, 4:58

I will check it out. Thanks for the link. It looks familiar to the same two who posted another comparison of Irish to Akkadian. Turned out that most of these were actually Sumerian terms and similar to Hungarian. However I already looked into Irish a bit and did find common words, But that doesnt mean at all that its a similar language. Rather that some way or another, perhaps before moving to western europe they were in contact with FinnoUgrians and as such there are a fairly noticeable list of common words. However in phonology Irish is totally unlike FinnoUgrian. Its grammar has some agglutination, especially old Irish, but its not that much more than many old IndoEuropean languages had. So I wouldnt make much of it. Yet its a very interesting question to me as to how these terms were passed on to them. Thats why I started a list just to see what sorts of things were borrowed. I should also state that I am just looking into it and have just scratched the surface. But dont see half of what others have claimed to be real.

Well I see that the same bunch are beating up the messanger (You). Posting something unusual does not mean you have to agree with it, but to check it out and then decide. What we see here are some people who know it all, before they even look into it.
Fred

nJohn West-Hungary wrote:Hi, millenia !


It's a very big job. This is already a komplex dictionary ....




Other:






2,650+ SIMILAR IRISH AND FINNISH WORDS


WITH AN IRISH TIE-IN TO URALIC ROOTS







http://hometown.aol.com/irishWord/irish-finn3.htm




.

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Re: Másik Szumir mondat

Postby millenia » 2007-11-20, 5:18

Wow, I took a closer look at the list and I would be surprised if 5% actually compared like words to each other. So many are bad comparisons. Yet its good to know what is similar to see if it tells us anything about contacts. Have you read Timaru Kast Sándors comparisons. There are a lot of errors there also, but its a bit more thorough and a higher percentage of close meaning words than here. At most 50% of his are worth checking. But again, grammar is not the same or that close, so its just due to some kind of a loan. Naturally one should be looking at Old Irish not the modern. All languages have loan words also and plenty of them. To me the language structure is more important than vocabulary, although thats important also.

millenia wrote:I will check it out. Thanks for the link. It looks familiar to the same two who posted another comparison of Irish to Akkadian. Turned out that most of these were actually Sumerian terms and similar to Hungarian. However I already looked into Irish a bit and did find common words, But that doesnt mean at all that its a similar language. Rather that some way or another, perhaps before moving to western europe they were in contact with FinnoUgrians and as such there are a fairly noticeable list of common words. However in phonology Irish is totally unlike FinnoUgrian. Its grammar has some agglutination, especially old Irish, but its not that much more than many old IndoEuropean languages had. So I wouldnt make much of it. Yet its a very interesting question to me as to how these terms were passed on to them. Thats why I started a list just to see what sorts of things were borrowed. I should also state that I am just looking into it and have just scratched the surface. But dont see half of what others have claimed to be real.

Well I see that the same bunch are beating up the messanger (You). Posting something unusual does not mean you have to agree with it, but to check it out and then decide. What we see here are some people who know it all, before they even look into it.
Fred

nJohn West-Hungary wrote:Hi, millenia !


It's a very big job. This is already a komplex dictionary ....




Other:






2,650+ SIMILAR IRISH AND FINNISH WORDS


WITH AN IRISH TIE-IN TO URALIC ROOTS







http://hometown.aol.com/irishWord/irish-finn3.htm




.

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Postby millenia » 2007-11-20, 5:51

The sound rules are written in the following form

WAS/IS/RULE or WAS/IS without rule

The rule has the structure of:

Head _ Tail

I also like at times to show where the deletion occured by using the IS as "_" which then marks it
in the end results.
The Head and Tail may also use # symbol for word boundaries like start of word or end of word. This however can also be used in the WAS where it is the only rule type marker allowed. So that a simple
#WAS/IS means that the WAS string must be at the head of the word or WAS# meaning it has to be at the end of the word.

HEAD means that the rule requires a certain set of preceeding letters or types to lead the replaced string which is marked by the "_" and or the Tail string has to follow the replaced string. Head and Tail are almost never used together and you always strive to use the most generic groupings rather than just specific letters. You also have to ignore as coincidence any "rule" that has very few examples.
A rule for one word is not a rule at all, but a force fit.

Rules are also hierarchically listed in the rule table so as to keep them simple to write because there is no way to represent a Negative rule, nor a way to make OR statements like this or that or that.
These are done with a sequence of rules.

Making rules generic reduces the number of them. Capital letters are defined in a list of phoneme types, and dont mean a specific letter but a type group.
F=äeiü R=aouö etc. V=aeiouöü, Q=l,j,ng and so on
lower case letters are just what they are, however!
for a particular language the meaning of that letter
may be different than for another language and you can display national specific results, as I do.

My system finds the first rule in a list then performs it and then goes on to the next part of the word. There are no iteration, of looking for the next rule for the same replaced string. If no rule matches then the phoneme stays as is.

There are a lot of minor details here also about how it works. In my notation I also use some special short hand like (symb) meaning that the result may be the "symb" but it may be deleted also.

Also the protoword definition doesnt mean that the later version is identical in meaning. I can use the program emphasizing the definitions, and not show the individual rules, only the results, as I have done with a few, or to minimize the definitions and emphasize the individual rules.
This is generated by a software program I wrote for analysis and documentation and there is absolutely no manual refining except throwing out questionable results, as invalid. So you can also generate a nice searchable dictionary. Searchable on definitions of words, phoneme clusters which can have letters or Type codes and can easily generate lists for analysis.

Paokala wrote:
millenia wrote:Lapp/Saami assâ- << [ a~ä,čč~ss,ie~a,-,l,ē,]<< #a/a~ä/_U, ś/čč~ss, e/ie~a, - ,- ,a#/ē,


Hmm, could you explain me the way you write your sound shift rules. They're really difficult to understand. Only things I understand are the symbols # (word boundary)and _ (place where sound shift applies). But the rules are otherwise really obscure, ie. #a/a~ä/_U or a#/ē?

millenia wrote:
Proto *lū== people
EmeGir/Sumer lú << [ l,a,]<< #l/l, ū/a,
Magyar/Hungar _ö << [ l,u,]<< #l/l, ū/u,
Finn/Suomi luu << [ l,uu,]<< #l/l, ū/uu,


Hmm, what does that 'luu' mean? I know only "luu" as 'bone' (< *luwe). And what's the ū/a after lú?

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Postby nJohn West-Hungary » 2007-11-20, 14:15

Vortarulo wrote:
nJohn West-Hungary wrote:Hi, Vortarulo !

Sorry, but E.G. the HUNGARIAN-FINNISH COMPARISON is by MODERN WORDS !!!!!
And the problem is that, in those HYPOTHETICAL THEORY the hungarian words changed only from the FU's age..............

Where are the re-enactmented FU-words ???

The lingustics said the "KALA" (finn. --> changed ----> "HAL" (hung.) (=FISH)

but "KUOLE-" (finn.) -----> changed -----> "HAL" (hung.) (='die' )


I'm not sure if I understand you right. But well... I think this is because we do have written examples of older Hungarian (written in those Hungarian runes), but – at least to my knowledge – not much written in old Finnish. Finnish and Hungarian are the best known FU-languages, even the best known Uralic ones. So one has to start with modern Finnish and old Hungarian. There's simply no Ancient Finnish to start with.

In Irish we have Old Irish, something Ancient Celtic and much more. Indo-European is very large, so one doesn't have to rely on modern forms of Irish.

You showed two good examples for cognates in Hungarian and Finnish, but I didn't really understand what you were trying to say there... Yes, <i>kala</i> and <i>hal</i> are cognates, and I think all Uralic languages have similar forms like <i>xol</i>, <i>xal</i>, <i>hala</i>, Saami has <i>guolle</i>. Even in the remote Uralic languages, they're of this velar+V+labial kind.

I'm not an expert in Finno-Ugristics, but I imagine that one can reconstruct the proto-words in Finno-Ugric or Proto-Uralic pretty well from that.

The only words that *I* find interestingly similar to Indo-European are the pronouns and the word "name".

<b>P.S.:</b> Oh, I get it! You wonder where the reconstructed words for Proto-Finno-Ugric are! Aaaah, right.
Well, there are Proto-Uralic-forms in the Starostin database, and the source says: <i>"This is the database that had been originally (in the early 90's) started by E. Helimski on the basis of Redei's dictionary (UEW), but left unfinished."</i> — sounds like well established proto-words for me.



Hi, Vortarulo !

I know the STAROSTIN.

But:

------------------------------------------------------
Number: 230

Proto: *kala

> Nostratic:
English meaning: fish
German meaning: Fisch

Finnish: kala 'Fisch'
Estonian: kala

Saam (Lapp): guolle -l- (N), kuollē (L), kī̊ille (T), kũill (Kld.), kuoill (Not.)
Mordovian: kal (E M)
Mari (Cheremis): kol (KB U B)
Khanty (Ostyak): kul (V), ẋut́ (DN), ẋul (O)
Mansi (Vogul): kōl (TJ), ẋūl (KU So.), kul (P)
Hungarian: hal
Nenets (Yurak): ẋāĺe (O), kāŕe (Nj.)
Enets (Yen): kaðe, kare (Ch.), kare (K B)
Nganasan (Tawgi): kole, kuale, kuǝlle
Selkup: ke̮l, qe̮l (TaM), ke̮l, qe̮li (Ty.), k↔<uel (Ke.), qē̮li̮ (Tur.)
Kamass: kola
Janhunen's version: (8) *kala
Sammalahti's version: *kala
Addenda: Koib. kola; Mot. kele; Karag. kalè; Taig. kallà

-----------------------------------------------------------

Yes, it is nonsence. This attests me. That is to say MARACZ and MARCANTONIO.

Where is the GRIMM'S LAW and VERNER'S LAW ???
Is it operated only in the hungarian ??? Than why is that 'LAW' ???
These 'laws' was created for the GERMAN languages only.
That is dictatorial, mannered and unnatural in the non-german languages...


Redei's dictionary (UEW) is DISUSED !!!!!!!!!!


.

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The sound rule for the Lead *J in FinnUgor to Sumerian

Postby millenia » 2007-11-25, 18:06

To the constant complainers about EVERTHING to do
with language comparison of Hungarian to anything but FinnUgor and perhaps that too. Its pointless to listen or show you because you wouldnt notice a similarity if it hit you in the head. So who cares what you say! At the same time I say to those who want EVERYTHING to be related, like Irish. That it obviously cannot be all true based on comparison lists that are so incompatible with their definitions. It only gives reasons for the critics to say "See how sily this is. It's ALL that sily".
The Irish comparison was truly a terrible one, yet its good to have a look none the less and they just reject it. If they were more selective they could have done better, but what would that really proove when its really an IndoEuropean language type, with loans from old European languages. But enough of the complaining, here is my next comparison for lead L.
====================


#J > ŋ or g
The ŋ nazal vellar is not allways indicated and often a g is used. When it is indicated its
normally shown as g with ~ or v on top of the g. Yet its closer to an ng, nk sound than a g.
This phoneme seems to be a very common collector of palatized sounds in general since
j, ñ, ŋ, ŋk, & #k with the next consonant a nazal all convert to ŋ or g. (ŋ > g). The following
list is just for the example for the lead J. (Y for the English speakers)

Proto *jaje-== pain , hurt , ouch (a)
EmeGir/Sumer [ ŋ~g,a~i,l,e~i,-,] >> gag-ig=to cry out in pain; aya=cry of woe; gi 17, gi-g
=illness,injury; i=cry of pain;
Magyar/Hungar [ j~gy,a~e,j,e~i,-,] >> jaj=so bad, oh no, ow; jaj-gat=making sounds of pain;

Proto *joke== river , water (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ ŋ~g,u,_,(e~a),] >> gu_=riverbank; i7; u-gu_ 2 =watering place, irrigation ;
Magyar/Hungar [ j~gy,a~é,(j),e~i,] >> you > -jó_ ="fo-lyó" river;
Vogul/Mansi [ j,a~o~u,(γ~x),i,] >> _ie, ia, ja =river; ( substitutes for lead j)
Ostyak/Khanti [ j,a~o~u,(γ~x),e,] >> ioγan =small river; ioχ=river;
Mordvin [ j,o~u,j~v,o,] >> jov =the river Moksa
Finn/Suomi [ j,a~o,k,e~ie,] >> joki=river;juχke=brook;
Lapp/Saami [ j,œ,kk,e,] >> jokka=river;

Proto *jorke== spin , wind , roll , travel (järe=circle) (v)
EmeGir/Sumer [ ŋ~g,u~a,r,_,] >> gur 4=to gallop,roll over, turn; ŋiri=road,trip,feet; ŋa_=to go;
EmeSal/Sumer [ n~m,e,r,_,] >> me.ri =feet, trip
Magyar/Hungar [ j~gy,o~a,r,k,e~i,] >> jár=travel, go around/about, walk; gyor-s=fast ;
Vogul/Mansi [ j,a~o~u,r,(γ~x),,] >> jouer=travel;
Ostyak/Khanti [ j,a~o~u,r,(γ~x),,] >> ?jogər=become complicated (rotacism r-g); ?kore=legg,
Lapp/Saami [ j,œ,r,k,e,] >> jorg-ot =chase, drive back, wind; jorrât=rush about, go around;

Proto *joŕε== planing iron , shaver , to scrape , shave (tool) (v) (metal)
EmeGir/Sumer [ ŋ~g,u,r,ε,] >> gur 10,14 =sicle < shaver,cutter; gur 5=separate,divide;
Magyar/Hungar [ j~gy,a~é,r,ε,] >> nyír=shave(j~gy~ny dialects); [r>l] gyalú=wood
plane,gyal-ul=shave off;
Vogul/Mansi [ j,a~o~u,r,,] >> iarr =to plane, scrape, shave; iorγ=plane, scratch;

Proto *joήe== come (v)
EmeGir/Sumer [ ŋ~g,u,(n~g),(e~a),] >> ŋan, ge_ 4=come;
Magyar/Hungar [ j~gy,a~é,n,e~i,] >> jöv, jö=come; jön=comes; jöv-ö, jöv-endö =future;
Vogul/Mansi [ j,a~o~u,(η),] >> jäj~juw=come !frontvowel must have switched early to
backvowel; jänt=come;
Ostyak/Khanti [ j,a~o~u,(η),] >> jio-taγε, iotä=come; jĕw=arrive, become, come, start;
Finn/Suomi [ j,a~o,_,e~ie,] >> jää-dä =be left, remain, stay?

Proto *juγe== (or juγe) drink < ? joki= water, river? (v)
EmeGir/Sumer [ ŋ~g,a~u,_,] >> *ŋa_ > na 8=drink; _e 4, a =water; ?
Magyar/Hungar [ j~gy,u~o,v~j,] >> _iv-, _i- , i-sz =drink; iv-ás =drinking act.(j > i)
Ostyak/Khanti [ j,u~o~ö,γ~x~w,] >> jäńť-
Finn/Suomi [ j,u~o,(v),] >> juo-
Lapp/Saami [ j,u~o,γ~k~hk,] >> jukkâ

Proto *jälke== sighn , track > ornament (v) (n)
EmeGir/Sumer [ g,a,(l),_,] >> gal-am=artistic? < ?ornament-er, decorator. (-am =deverbal
Magyar/Hungar [ (j),e,l,e~i,] >> jel~jegy =sign, symbol, stamped ticket; jelv-ény=medal
Vogul/Mansi [ j~i,ä~e,l(γ),,] >> iäγ-el=ornament
Finn/Suomi [ j,ä,l,k,e~ie,] >> jälki=track
Lapp/Saami [ j,ie~a,lg,e,] >> joelga-s =track (from Finn)

Proto *janηε== weak < young (Altaic jani proposed, but rejected byTESZ) (a)
EmeGir/Sumer [ ŋ~g,u,ŋ~g,,] >> genna =to be small, young <weak?; dim =weak;
Magyar/Hungar [ j~gy,a~e,ng,,] >> gyenge =weak; zsenge = weak and young; (ηk > ng)

===========where a palatal vowel (e,i) follows the J, it is dropped===============

Proto *jelä== light , day , sun (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ _,e~i,l,(a~e),] >> _íla, _íli, _íl =to shine;
Vogul/Mansi [ j~i,i,l~Λ~t,,] >> jâľli=lighten, jâlâ-kas=completely cloudless;

Proto *jima= to go, move around >> start {v)
EmeGir/Sumer [ _,a,m~n,_,] >> _inda =flower..
Magyar/Hungar [ (j),i~e,m~v,_,] >> _in-d-ul=start to go; _in-og =to not be still; inda =a creeping vine;
Vogul/Mansi [ j~i,i~ü,m,_,] >> joami=move about, go;

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Postby Vortarulo » 2007-11-25, 21:28

Millenia, have you tested your comparison program with other pairs of languages / language families? Not necessarily including Hungarian and/or Sumerian.

I'd like to see the outcome for language pairs that are in ALL likelyhood not related at all, like, say, Athabaskan—Burushaski or Klingon—South-Caucasian or Alëut—Bantu or Khoisan—Yenisseian or Semitic-Pirahã or things like that?

I'd like to see if this program could produce a similarly vast output of supposed cognates. Statistical proves for your hypothesis would be really interesting here.

Greetings,
- André
[flag]de[/flag] ← native
[flag]eo[/flag] [flag]us[/flag] [flag]zh[/flag] ← fluent
[flag]nl[/flag] [flag]th[/flag] [flag]tlh[/flag] ← intermediate
[flag]fr[/flag] [flag]ddo[/flag] [flag]es[/flag] [flag]lo[/flag] ← conversational
...and also a little bit of [flag]la[/flag] [flag]zhc[/flag] [flag]pt[/flag] [flag]ru[/flag] [flag]tr[/flag] [flag]tpi[/flag] [flag]ja[/flag] [flag]bo[/flag] [flag]pl[/flag] [flag]id[/flag] and [flag]art-tkp[/flag]

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Postby nJohn West-Hungary » 2007-11-26, 21:26

Neue Überlegungen zur Datierung [Bearbeiten]



Die traditionell angenommene Reihenfolge wurde in den letzten Jahren (seit ca. 1998) mit folgenden beiden Hauptargumenten zunehmend in Frage gestellt: (1.) Mehrere Linguisten wiesen darauf hin, dass das Vernersche Gesetz durchaus auch vor der ersten Lautverschiebung gegolten haben kann. Zumindest gibt es für die traditionell angenommene umgekehrte Reihenfolge keine positiven Belege. (2.) Die Entdeckung starker Argumente für die Datierung des Grimmschen Gesetzes erst auf das (ausgehende) 1. Jh. v. Chr. (vgl. Gemeingermanisch). Insbesondere der Stammesname "Kimbern" und der alte Name des Flusses Waal deuten auf den Wandel von anlautendem k zu h erst kurz vor der Zeitenwende hin. Umgekehrt gilt das bisherige Hauptargument für die Frühdatierung dieses Wandels auf die Mitte des 1. Jahrtausends v. Chr. - nämlich die Veränderung des griechischen Wortes kannabis in germanisch hanf-- als nicht mehr tragfähig und zumindest keineswegs zwingend.



Die Spätdatierung des Grimmschen Gesetzes auf das späte 1. Jahrhundert v. Chr. wiederum setzt - bei Geltung der o.g. traditionellen Reihenfolge - eine enorm schnelle Veränderung des späten Gemeingermanisch um die Zeitenwende voraus: Binnen weniger Jahrzehnte müssten die ersten drei der oben genannten fünf tiefgreifenden Veränderungen in schneller Folge vollzogen worden sein. Nur so wäre zu erklären, dass sämtliche germanische Sprachen diese Veränderungen aufweisen, obwohl sich die germanische Spracheinheit im Osten bereits um Christi Geburt durch die Ablösung des Ostgermanischen aufzulösen begann. Ein so rapider Sprachwandel erscheint jedoch weniger plausibel. Er hätte - pointiert gesagt - die Folge gehabt, dass der Enkel den eigenen Großvater kaum mehr verstanden hätte.



Vor diesem Hintergrund gewinnt neuerdings die These, das Vernersche Gesetz könne - womöglich lange - vor dem Grimmschen Gesetz gegolten haben, an Zustimmung. Dann wäre folgende Reihenfolge anzunehmen:


Vernersches Gesetz (erste mögliche Abgrenzung Indogermanisch/Germanisch)

Aufkommen der Initialbetonung (zweite mögliche Abgrenzung zum Indogermanisch/Germanisch)

Grimmsches Gesetz/erste Lautverschiebung im späten 1. Jh. v. Chr. (sie markiert demnach nicht die Entstehung des Germanischen)

Schwächung der unbetonten Silben (im Deutschen erst im 10. Jahrhundert n. Chr.), schließlich bald danach, wenn nicht gleichzeitig

Verfall/Umbau der Flexionssysteme


Im Deutschen markieren die Schritte 4. und 5. übrigens den Übergang vom Althochdeutschen zum Mittelhochdeutschen.



Gegen diese frühe Datierung kann ein phonologisches Argument ins Feld geführt werden: Mit der traditionellen Abfolge kann man die Wirkung des Vernerschen Gesetzes auf eine phonetisch zusammengehörige Lautgruppe, nämlich die stimmlosen Frikative, einschränken. Will man hingegen die erste Lautverschiebung nach dem Vernerschen Gesetz ansetzen, so muss man davon ausgehen, dass es auf zwei phonetisch völlig unterschiedliche Lautgruppen, nämlich die stimmlosen Plosive *p, *t und *k einerseits und den Frikativ s andererseits, gewirkt habe. [Vgl. hierzu die Diskussion!]





Folgen der Frühdatierung des Vernerschen Gesetzes [Bearbeiten]



Der Einwand, in dieser hypothetischen Reihenfolge sei der zeitliche Abstand zwischen dem Aufkommen der Initialbetonung und den Schritten vier und fünf zu groß, wird durch den Befund des Isländischen und Walliserdeutschen widerlegt. In diesen germanischen, relativ isolierten Idiomen existieren bis heute - über 2000 Jahre nach dem Einsetzen der Initialbetonung - vokalische Nebentonsilben und archaische Flexionsysteme mit Postdetermination, wie sie historisch etwa im Althochdeutschen, Altenglischen und Gotischen belegt sind. Aus dieser Faktenlage läßt sich die Vermutung gewinnen: Wenn Initialbetonung und solche morphologische Systeme nachweislich 2000 Jahre lang miteinander kompatibel waren, können sie auch 3000 Jahre lang miteinander kompatibel gewesen sein.



Mit dieser Relativchronologie stellt sich der Wandel des späten Gemeingermanisch im 1. Jh. v. Chr. weniger dramatisch dar. Es ist damit auch verständlich, warum sämtliche germanische Sprachen die Veränderungen 1. bis 3. vollständig vollzogen haben. Angesichts der Ablösung der Ostgermanen von der Gesamtheit der Germanen bereits im 2. oder 1. Jahrhundert vor Christus ist diese Gemeinsamkeit bei der heute überwiegend angenommenen Spätdatierung von Grimms Gesetz nämlich kaum zu erklären. Selbst mit der neuen Relativchronologie ist die Durchführung von Grimms Gesetz in sämtlichen germanischen Sprachen nicht ganz einfach zu erklären. Naheliegend und angesichts des empirischen Befundes sehr plausibel erscheint die Ausbreitung der ersten Lautverschiebung innerhalb des germanischen Sprachgebietes von Ost nach West im ausgehenden 1. Jahrtausend v. Chr.: Die Waal, deren lautlich erst spät verschobener antiker Name für diese Spätdatierung ein wichtiger Beleg ist, liegt im äußersten Westen des damaligen germanischen Sprachgebietes.



In jedem Falle markiert Grimms Gesetz dann keineswegs mehr den Beginn des Germanischen, sondern im Gegenteil eine der letzten von allen germanischen Sprachen gemeinsam vollzogenen Veränderungen. Das bislang als Protogermanisch oder Gemeingermanisch bezeichnete Idiom wäre dann genauer als spätestes Gemeingermanisch zu bezeichnen. Die von den Germanen in der späten Bronzezeit oder Eisenzeit gesprochene Sprache wiederum hätte dann ein weitaus archaischeres Gepräge und gliche weit mehr als traditionell angenommen ihrem indoeuropäischen Vorläufer.


http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernersches_Gesetz

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Postby millenia » 2007-11-30, 6:26

Vortarulo wrote:Millenia, have you tested your comparison program with other pairs of languages / language families? Not necessarily including Hungarian and/or Sumerian.


My program allows some mixing of families and I have also done comparisons of Altaic, IndoEuropean and Etruscan. The really distant ones I am less interested in. I have read that Burushaski is originally a Paleo Siberian language like Hun was, before it got so mixed with Altaic. At least thats what linguists are saying based on early Chinese sourced Hun word lists. I have played around with a lot of languages which are claimed to be IndoEuropean but whose proofs are nearly useless, and its just whishful thinking. Scythian comes to mind, which isnt one language but many, and its not from one language family but several. Depending of course on which group or tribe you are talking about. Mede being like Persian, based on what, ever Richard Fry had doubts. Keltic is basically IndoEruropean, but it has a lot of non IndoEuropean elements, because it was once more of a hybrid culture than just one language and one people. One of my discoveries about it was the meaning of the word "druid" which isnt even IE but Etruscan "trut".

I leave Klingon to it's masters, you, because the results is biased toward the source of the words it's inventors based it on. Tolkien got a lot from F.U. for the Ring, but who knows about Star Trek's linguists. Why waste my little time. In general I try to keep closer to home than far, although there are a few American Indian languages that do have some similarity also, but I won't build any grand relationships on those. Its interesting to note however that the ObUgrians and the Samoyeds, who are most unlike FinnoUgrians, are of the "Americanoid" appearance and genetically the Samoyeds are the closest Asiatics to North American indian males in their Y chromosome types whereas Hungarians are totally different.

Dravidian languages also show a lot of common vocabulary with Finnugor languages and linguists have been talking about it for years, but have done next to nothing to really study it. No money for it. I have a list but its not worked out with sound rules and maybe eventually I may get inspired to do some serious analysis. Statistics in number of word compares I can do easy with my program, but there are always problems with how complete the list is, where to draw the line, and that can skew the numbers a lot. I have made several charts with grammatical features and sound rule statistics within the languaguages I work with but it was based on a few features and I want to do a more comprehensive one.

Sheer numbers if they include loan words will bias the comparisons, but all words and their real origins arent always known and are often assumed to be from the "prominent" languages of the day, and not what they were thousands of years ago when these "prominent" ones didn't exist. You really need a time machine to know the truth. All we have are some very crude, biased and rough guesses. Admit it, it's true. We try to avoid biases, but its still impossible to do so.

Oh, I am finishing up a quicky guide to Sumerian Grammar which could be very usefull to me as well as others interested in Sumerian. Its about 9 pages long now, and I am keeping it short and basic.
Fred

millenia
Posts: 57
Joined: 2007-09-22, 6:33
Real Name: Fred Hamori
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The topic of the day is "physical universe"

Postby millenia » 2007-11-30, 6:37

Various physical aspects of nature, other than plants and animals.
For a change, this is not grouped by sound rules since no one appears interesed in them, unless they can
demand to have them. Instead this list is based on a topic.

Proto *are-näkke== shadow (protected / shaded + light) (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ a~u,r,e~i,-,n~ŋ,a,g~h,_,] >> ara 3, ar=shine;+ niŋ-in=enclosure; niŋ + ar=dark
room (metathesis);
Magyar/Hungar [ a,r,e~i,-,n,e,k,e~i,] >> ár-nyék =shadow, shade, spectre (ár=light +
nyék=enclosed area in a forrest clearing); Nyék =one of 7 Hungarian "Tribes".

Proto *arε= watery, swampy, grass covered depression (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ a~u,r,i~e,] >> ur_ 2,3,4 = to flood
Magyar/Hungar [ a,r,ε,] >> ár_ =flood, árok=irrigation ditch or just a water removal ditch;
Ostyak/Khanti [ o~u,r,,] >> uri =ancient river bed that has partially dried up changed to sm
Finn/Suomi [ a~e,r,ε,] >> aro =grassed low lying land; aro=shallow inlet of a river/Karelian

Proto *aća== lawn , medow with a brook, field (possibly related to asz-ik per MSzFE)
EmeGir/Sumer [ a,š~s,a,] >> aša 5 =field, plot; isi =clay pit, pit;
Magyar/Hungar [ a,ś>sz,a~e,] >> asz-ó=dry riverbed, depression, valley;
Votyak/Udm [ a,ź~ž,e,] >> aź-dor?=depression,valley;
Zuryen/Komi [ a,ź~ž,a,] >> aDź_ ?=depression,valley;
Estonian [ a~e,s~ts,ē,] >> aas_=depression,valley;

Proto *eće== fall > rain (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ _,š~s,e,] >> _še-ŋ 3,7 =to rain, rain; _šu-b =to drop, let fall, to fall,rain;
Magyar/Hungar [ e,ś>sz,e~i,] >> es_=fall,es-ö=rain, es-ik=rains,falls; eś-te =sunset,evening;
Vogul/Mansi [ ä~a,š~č,i,] >> íse-pi=to fly; iś_=fall; isi=to descend;
Ostyak/Khanti [ i~ə,š~č,e,] >> əsə-l=drop, let loose, shoot; es-t=drop,let down,loose
Votyak/Udm [ o~a,ć~ś~č,,] >> uś-,üś-; uśkyt =to drop
Zuryen/Komi [ o~u,ć~ś~č,,] >> uś_, ús-kal=fall down; uś-kõd=let down;

Proto *eče-== +tt evening < sunset < setting/falling; *ćette=darkening/Ugor (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ e,š,e~i,-,] >> ùs-an =sunset,evening (-an=time locative); šuš, šu=throw down,
to set
EmeSal/Sumer [ e,z,e,-,] >> uzu- 5 =sunset, evening
Magyar/Hungar [ e,ś,e~i,-,] >> eś_-te=sunset, evening (see *ec'e=to fall + idö=time)
Vogul/Mansi [ ä~a,č~š~s,i,-,] >> isi =to descend; ćette=darkening, greying sky;

Proto *ilmä==(also ilemä) air , weather , sky & creator god ; (nature) (religion)
EmeGir/Sumer [ i,_m,(a~e),] >> i_mi = wind; en-imi-en-ur-ta = storm god > Ninurta, Nimrod
Magyar/Hungar [ e,m~v,e,] >> _lev-eg-ö =air, atmosphere; (*ilma>ilemä > lemä > leve-
Vogul/Mansi [ #,i~ü,l~Λ~t,m,,] >> eeləm, iiləm =weather, world;
Ostyak/Khanti [ #,o,l~Λ~t,m~w,,] >> iləm ~ itəm = sky, weather, cloudy (day);
Votyak/Udm [ i,l,m~v,,] >> in = heaven; in-mar=god;
Zuryen/Komi [ i~a,l,m~v,,] >> jen =god, heaven;
Finn/Suomi [ y~i,l,m,ä,] >> ilmä =air,weather, storm; Ilma-rinen =sky & smith god;
Estonian [ i,l,m~mb,ä,] >> ilm_ =weather, world;
Lapp/Saami [ i,l,m~mb,ē,] >> âľbme = heaven, snowstorm;

Proto *ičēppe==(?) mire , muck (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ _,š,ē,_,] >> isi_= pit; clay pit
Magyar/Hungar [ e,ś,ē,p~b,e~i,] >> iszap= muck, mire, wet sediment in rivers

Proto *jelä== light , day , sun (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ _,e~i,l,(a~e),] >> _íla, _íli, _íl =to shine;
Vogul/Mansi [ j~i,i,l~Λ~t,,] >> jâľli=lighten, jâlâ-kas=completely cloudless;

Proto *joke== river , water (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ ŋ~g,u,_,(e~a),] >> gu_=riverbank; i7; u-gu_ 2 =watering place, irrigation ;
Magyar/Hungar [ j~gy,a~é,(j),e~i,] >> you > -jó_ ="fo-lyó" river; i-(t/sz)=drink;
Vogul/Mansi [ j,a~o~u,(γ~x),i,] >> _ie, ia, ja =river; ( substitutes for lead j)
Ostyak/Khanti [ j,a~o~u,(γ~x),e,] >> ioγan =small river; ioχ=river;
Cherem/Mari [ j,a~o~u,(j),e,] >> jòγe=river,waters
Votyak/Udm [ j,o~a,_,,] >> ju-šur=river;
Zuryen/Komi [ j,o~a,_,,] >> ju =river;
Mordvin [ j,o~u,j~v,o,] >> jov =the river Moksa
Finn/Suomi [ j,a~o,k,e~ie,] >> joki=river;juχke=brook;
Estonian [ j,a~o,k,e~i,] >> jiki =river;
Lapp/Saami [ j,œ,kk,e,] >> jokka=river;

Proto *kaða== mountain, peak, summit, hight (or from kaća = peak, end point ) (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ g>h,a~u,(d~l),a,] >> gag =arrow head,nail,peg "point"; gag-suh=nail;
Magyar/Hungar [ h~g,a~e,j~gy,a~e,] >> hegy =peak, point, summit, mountain;
Finn/Suomi [ k,a,d,a~o,] >> *kaća > kasa = end, peak, summit, top;
Estonian [ k,a,d,ē,] >> kadsa =the pointed corner of the ax;
Lapp/Saami [ g,o>uo,δδ,ē,] >> goečče < =*kaća end point < *kaća

Proto *kilmε==(or ?kumε) snow (nature)
Magyar/Hungar [ k,i~e,m~v,,] >> hóv > hó, hav =snow; ?hül=to cool off;
Votyak/Udm [ k,i,l,m~v,,] >> kym =thin, newly fallen snow;
Finn/Suomi [ k,i~y,l,m,ε,] >> kylma=cold ? hanki=snow crust?
Livonian [ k,i,l,m,ε,] >> kiilm=cold ? aŋŋk =snow crust?
Estonian [ k,i~y,l,m~mb,ε,] >> kylm=cold ? hank=snow crust?
kume works for Hungarian but doesnt work well for the others. However lm > m in Hungarian and
the effect of the nasal changed the front vowel to back vowel as it usually does, resulting in the
final change. Doing it in a single pass is impossible, but not impossible in stages.

Proto *kinte== fog , mist (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ g,i~e,d,(e~a),] >> gidi 6, gidi-m 6= eclipsed, darkened (-im=formative)
Magyar/Hungar [ k,ö,d,e~i,] >> köd_ ~ ked ~ kögy(dialects) =fog, (+öz) to cloud an issue;
Votyak/Udm [ k,i,d,,] >> köd=in "čõη-köd" haze,vapour (čõη=smoke);kid=understanding,mood
Zuryen/Komi [ k,e,d,,] >> ked=smoke,haze,moisture,cloud;kid =understanding; mood;

Proto *kiwe== stone , rock (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ k,i~e,_,] >> ki-m=stone type ~ gi_-n=precious stone(gi+na); kù_ =metal (ore?);
Magyar/Hungar [ k,i~e,v,] >> kö(v) =rock, stone; kav-ics=pebble; kova =flint;
Vogul/Mansi [ k(w),o~u,w,i,] >> kúw,käw=stone
Ostyak/Khanti [ k,eu~e,w,e,] >> keu,koχ,kèw,kaw=stone
Cherem/Mari [ k,ü,(j),e,] >> kü_,küi=stone
Votyak/Udm [ k,ü~o,_,,] >> ko_,kü_=stone
Zuryen/Komi [ k,e,(i),,] >> iz-ki_=
Mordvin [ k,i~e,v,o,] >> kev_=stone
Finn/Suomi [ k,i~y,,] >> kivi =stone;
Estonian [ k,i~y,,] >> kivi,kive =stone

Proto *ko-mε==(k8mε) cave, hollow (nature)
Magyar/Hungar [ h~g,a~é,-m~v,ε,] >> hiu =attic, garret, loft, breach, gap; hé-z-ag=gap;
Ostyak/Khanti [ k,a~o~u,-m,,] >> kŏ_mər=empty space under the ice;
kŏm=space under an overturned boat
Cherem/Mari [ k,a~o~u,-m~v,,] >> koma-n=a convex shaped surface; (homoru?)
Finn/Suomi [ k,a~o,-m,ε,] >> komi, komo=emptyness, empty;
Lapp/Saami [ g,œ,-m,ε,] >> goabnâ= a convex shaped surface; (?gömb?)

Proto *koje== dawn (time) > koje-tel= sun (nature)
Magyar/Hungar [ h~g,a~é,j,e~i,] >> haj-nal=dawn; (-nál=at?)
Vogul/Mansi [ χ~h,a~o~u,j,i,] >> kuj=dawn, kui=morning redness;
Ostyak/Khanti [ k,a~o~u,j,e,] >> χunt =redness in the sky; kūńəl-kuńť =redness in the sky;
Zuryen/Komi [ k,o~a,j,,] >> kia, kyva=redness in sky(especially at dawn)
Finn/Suomi [ k,a~o,j~i,e~ie,] >> koi =dawn
Estonian [ k,a~o,j~i,e~i,] >> koi =morning redness of the sky;

Proto *kollε=fissure, gap, cavity, split (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ g>h,a,l,l,,] >> gala 3,4,5=cellar,store pit;
Magyar/Hungar [ h~g,o~a,l,,] >> hal-ok, hal-k=incision/notch in a tree that is to be cut down
Ostyak/Khanti [ k,a~o~u,tt,,] >> kŏl= crack, rift, interspace; hul =crack, rift,
Zuryen/Komi [ k,o~a,l,,] >> kolas=crack, distance, interval (space or time)
Finn/Suomi [ k,a~o,l,ε,] >> kolo =cavity, hole, crack, crevice, fissure
Lapp/Saami [ g,œ,l,l,ε,] >> gollo=fissure (in a hill, ice, stone)

Proto *kome== (kame) wetlands, swamp, moore > shore (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ g>h,a,m~n,(e~a),] >> a-gam = swamp (a=water designator); gán=field,track of
Magyar/Hungar [ h~g,a~é,m~v,e~i,] >> hány, han-t =marsh,moore,swamp (m>n)
Vogul/Mansi [ χ~h,a~o~u,m,i,] >> xåm-es =;
Ostyak/Khanti [ k,a~o~u,m~w,e,] >> χom-əs =island in a swamp;
Zuryen/Komi [ k,o~a,m~v,,] >> kán =side of something;

Proto *kor-pi== (?) swampi woodland (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ g>h,u~a,r,-,p,i~e,] >> gur =water basin; ( gu_ =river bank, front land; )
Magyar/Hungar [ h~g,o~a,r,-,v,i~e,] >> hor-to -bágy =a marshy river wetlands next to the Tisza
Finn/Suomi [ k,a~o,r,-,p,i~y,] >> kor-pi =swampy wood land;

Proto *kume= sand, dust ; (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ g>h,a~u,m~n,(e~a),] >> dal-ham-un5=dust storm;
Magyar/Hungar [ h~g,u~o,m~v,e~i,] >> hom-ok=sand;

Proto *kumpa== wave , turbulent water, foam (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ g>h,a~u,b,a,] >> gúb=clense,purify; _agi_ =wave,flood; *hu-pu > uh-pu=foam
Magyar/Hungar [ h~g,u~o,b,a~e,] >> hab =foam,turbulent water,wave; habzó= foaming;
Vogul/Mansi [ χ~h,u~o~ö,mp,,] >> χump, kub =wave,foam
Ostyak/Khanti [ k,u~o~ö,mp,,] >> χump, kump= =wave, foam
Zuryen/Komi [ k,i~e,b~p,a,] >> ?gibav-ni=
Mordvin [ k,o,mb,a~o,] >> kombə-ldə=to undulate
Finn/Suomi [ k,u~o,mp~mm,a~o,] >> ?kummu-ta =, kumpuan
Estonian [ k,u~o,mp~mm,ē,] >> ?kummuma=
Lapp/Saami [ g,u~o,m~mb,p,ē,] >> ?gobolastet=

Proto *kura== fine-powder snow , frost > dew (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ g>h,a~u,r,a,] >> hara = pulverize;
Magyar/Hungar [ h~g,u~o,r,a~e,] >> har-ma-t =dew, mist;
Votyak/Udm [ k,i~e,r,e,] >> ger =frost, frosty patterns (on window pane), icicles;
Zuryen/Komi [ k,i~e,r,a,] >> gier =frost cover on things;
Finn/Suomi [ k,u~o,r,a~o,] >> kura =fine snow, powder snow;
Estonian [ k,u~o,r,ē,] >> kuuru-kene =snow + ?
Lapp/Saami [ g,u~o,rr,ē,] >> kåårrō =form hoar frost on trees; kåårrā-lahka=ice,ice crust;

Proto *kuńće== kuńće star (heavens) (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ k,a~u,g,(e~a),] >> kug > kù_=bright,pure, sacred, silver..;
Magyar/Hungar [ h~g,u~o,gy,e~i,] >> húgy =archaic term for star, constellation;
Vogul/Mansi [ χ~h,u~o~ö,ńš~š,,] >> χoś, koońš =star
Ostyak/Khanti [ k,u~o~ö,ńś~ś,,] >> hus, kos =star
Votyak/Udm [ k,i~e,ź,,] >> koź-ul=star =star

Proto *kuδe== morning, dawn > tomorow ; (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ g>h,a~u,d,(e~a),] >> húd=morning;
Magyar/Hungar [ h~g,u~o,l,e~i,] >> hol+nap=tomorow "dawn+sun";
Vogul/Mansi [ χ~h,u~o~ö,(l~t),i,] >> hol,qol=morning; holi=east, in the morning; kat-əl
Ostyak/Khanti [ k,u~o~ö,(l~t),e,] >> hŏt-ne =in the morning "dawn+sun"naj=sun?; kot-əl =sun;week; xoli=morning

Proto *kü-ma== (kü-me) outside , outland (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ k,u~i,_,] >> ki_+ed =exit;
Magyar/Hungar [ k,ü~ö,-m~v,_,] >> kiv-ül=outside of; ki_ =outward;
Vogul/Mansi [ k(w),u~o~a,-m,_,] >> kün, kwän, kwämnə=(being) out; kon =being out/Southern
Ostyak/Khanti [ k,u~o~a,-m,_,] >> küm =out, the exterior part; kömən, kim=out,outdoors,
Zuryen/Komi [ k,i~e,-m~v,_,] >> kiń- , kińći, kińja =?except, save;

Proto *kōľme== (or kuδme] ash 2 / hot (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ k,u,m,(e~a),] >> kum=hot,heat
Magyar/Hungar [ h~g,o,m,e~i,] >> chomuv > hamú, hamv- =ash; hev-es=heated;
Vogul/Mansi [ χ~h,ú,j,,] >> kūľem =ash
Ostyak/Khanti [ k,u,j,,] >> χōjəm =ash; kajəm=cinders;
Mordvin [ k,u,l,o,] >> kulov,kulu,kuloη =ash
Finn/Suomi [ k,u,l,m,e~ie,] >> kulmu ?=

Proto *kūra== mountain > height (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ k,a,r,a,] >> kur=mountain, highland, reach,attain,kindle,rise(sun); kur4=big;
Magyar/Hungar [ h~g,u,r,a~e,] >> *hor-om >_or-om =peak, -kora =big(not lead k!),
Vogul/Mansi [ χ~h,u~o,r,,] >> kar-is=mountain, high; kwor-em=sun god, caretaker of man;
Cherem/Mari [ k,uu,r,,] >> kur-ok=mountain
Votyak/Udm [ k,i,r,e,] >> kur, gur-es=mountain
Finn/Suomi [ k,uu,r,a~o,] >> kor-kea=high
Lapp/Saami [ g,u~o,rr,ē,] >> kurro=mountain;

Proto *leil==(lewle) spirit 2, soul 2, damp air (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ l,a~u,i,l,] >> lil=air,breath,soul,infection;
Magyar/Hungar [ l,e~i,,l,] >> lél-ek=soul; lehel=breath; lég =atmosphere; levegö=air;
Vogul/Mansi [ l,ə,,l~Λ~t,] >> lili-ät=breath; lele,lel=soul; lil=air; lilti=to breathe;
Ostyak/Khanti [ l~t~λ,ə,,l~Λ~t,] >> tit, λiλ, lil =air; tit, λiλ=soul;
Votyak/Udm [ ľ,o~a,,l,] >> lul=breath,breathe,steam,soul,spirit,heart,life;
Zuryen/Komi [ ľ,o~a,,l,] >> lol,lov,lō =air,gas;
Finn/Suomi [ l,e~ie,i~y,l,] >> löyly=damp air;
Estonian [ l,æ,i~y,l,] >> leil=damp air, air, life
Lapp/Saami [ l,æ,i~ie,l,] >> liewlâ=steam

Proto *lomke== warm , flame , burn , light (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ l,a,h,_,] >> lah, _àh =shine, dry
Magyar/Hungar [ l,a~é,ng,e~i,] >> láng = (mk >ng) flame; me-leg=warm;
Vogul/Mansi [ l,a~o~u,m,,] >> lum-et=
Cherem/Mari [ l,a~o~u,m,e,] >> lom-əž=ash;
Votyak/Udm [ ľ,o~a,m,,] >> lom-al-ni=to burn; lum-it=lukewarm,mild,tepid;

Proto *lume==snow; (nature)
Magyar/Hungar [ l,u~o,m~v,e~i,] >> lom=broken ice;
Cherem/Mari [ l,o~u,m~v,e,] >> lum,lõm =snow;
Zuryen/Komi [ ľ,i~e,m~v,,] >> lym=snow;
Finn/Suomi [ l,u~o,m,e~ie,] >> lumi=snow;
Estonian [ l,u~o,m~mb,e~i,] >> lumi=snow;
Lapp/Saami [ l,u~o,m~mb,e,] >> lubmĕ=snow?ice;

Proto *lämpi== bog, swamp, marsh, marsh (nature) ;
Magyar/Hungar [ l,e,p,i~e,] >> láp =swamp, area of high water; lep=inundate;
Vogul/Mansi [ l,ä~e,mp,i~ü,] >> lup=
Cherem/Mari [ l,ä~e,b,i,] >> lap =low swampy ground,valley;
Zuryen/Komi [ ľ,e~i,b~p,e,] >> lep =
Finn/Suomi [ l,ä,mp~mm,i~y,] >> lampi= small lake,pond without outlet;lami=pond,woodland
Lapp/Saami [ l,ie~a,m~mb,p,i,] >> lapp-ad, luobbâl=small lake through which a river runs;

Proto *maγe== land , earth , territory , place (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ m,a~u,_,] >> ma-da = district (-da=locative);
Magyar/Hungar [ m,a~e,v~j,] >> vid-ék= countryside, megye =county; mezö =grass lands;
Vogul/Mansi [ m,o~u,γ~x~w,] >> má, me =place; maa =earth, land, place;
Finn/Suomi [ m,a,(v),] >> maa = land, country, medow, floor; metsa =woods < outer lands;
Estonian [ m,a,γ,e~i,] >> maa = land;

Proto *mäηä==(maa) land, earth (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ m,a,(g),] >> ma_-da = district-off; land, country; earth (-da=locative)
Magyar/Hungar [ m,e,g~v,e,] >> megye =county (not slav<latin origin, opposite!);
Finn/Suomi [ m,ää,_,] >> maa = land; metsa = outer forrest land;
Estonian [ m,ää,_,] >> maa = land

Proto *mīre== wind storm (?violent storm) ; ilmä = air & weather; (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ m,ī,r,_,] >> mer 2, mir 2 =storm wind, violent storm; mir=north wind; ?Marduk
Magyar/Hungar [ m,ī,r,e~i,] >> ne-mere=violent north wind(Transylvania); [m>v]??vihar =storm;
Finn/Suomi [ m,ī,r,e~ie,] >> myr-sky =strom;

Proto *naje==(najε) light , fire > sun (heavens) [Ugrian] (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ n~ŋ,a~i,_,] >> nu_11=light, fire; ne-bo =Mercury?
Magyar/Hungar [ n,a~e,j,e~i,] >> na_-p=sun < from naj + pi?
Vogul/Mansi [ n~ń,o~u,j,i,] >> nāj, nai=sun,fire
Ostyak/Khanti [ n~ń,o~u,j,e,] >> nai=fire, nai-xär=fire place

Proto *para== steam/sweat bath; (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ p~b,a~u,r,a,] >> abara =sweat
Magyar/Hungar [ b,a~e,r,a~e,] >> für-dö=a bath; foró=hot; pára=moisture in air;
pir-it=to singe, toast;

Proto *paľa== freeze, frost, ice-crust; (v) (nature)
Magyar/Hungar [ b>f,a~e,j~l,a~e,] >> fagy= frost, freeze; ľ > gy as in several other words;
Vogul/Mansi [ p,o~u,ľ~ť~>k',,] >> pōľi- =be cold, be freezing, burn;
Ostyak/Khanti [ p,o~u,ľ~ť~>k',,] >> pŏj =thich ice crust; păjət=get cold, catch cold;
Mordvin [ p,a,l,a~o,] >> palo- =be cold, be freezing; pul-ta- =burn;
Finn/Suomi [ p,a,l,a~o,] >> pala-le = be cold, be freezing, feel chily; paleltu- =freeze;
Lapp/Saami [ b,o>uo,l,ē,] >> buol-âš =frost, frosty, frost bite;

Proto *pilwe== cloud , mist , plume (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ p~b,i,l,_,] >> u-bill_a =soot<plume,smokecloud;(l~ŕ);a-bara=sweat;
bar-šeg=fog; pir 2,4 =mistiness (of eye)
Magyar/Hungar [ b>f,i~e,l,e~i,] >> fel-hö ~ fel-eg =cloud; l>r pára =mist, humidity;
Vogul/Mansi [ p,i~ü,l,,] >> pel-əη=cloud
Cherem/Mari [ p,i,l,e,] >> põl=cloud;
Votyak/Udm [ p~b,i,ľ,,] >> piľ-em, pil =cloud;
Zuryen/Komi [ p~b,e,l,,] >> pila=cloud;
Mordvin [ p,i~e,ľ,o,] >> p'eľ =cloud;
Finn/Suomi [ p,i~y,lv,e~ie,] >> pilvi =cloud
Lapp/Saami [ b,i~ie,ľv,e,] >> bâľvâ=cloud;

Proto *piče== smoke , plume [Ugrian] (nature)
Magyar/Hungar [ b>f,i~e,ś,e~i,] >> füś-t =smoke (ö>ü); búsz, búz =smoke (dialectical);
Vogul/Mansi [ p,i~ü,č~š~s,i,] >> pås-əm, pošš-am =smoke;
Ostyak/Khanti [ p,o,č,e,] >> puz-əη =smoke;

Proto *pore== dust , ash (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ p~b,u~a,r,_,] >> par-im=dry,arid land
EmeSal/Sumer [ p~b,e,r,_,] >> bír=dry up,
Magyar/Hungar [ b,o~a,r,e~i,] >> por_ =dust *archaism or loan from other FU or Turk language.
Vogul/Mansi [ p,a~o~u,r,i,] >> pär,per=ash
Finn/Suomi [ p,a~o,r,e~ie,] >> poro=coarse dust,ash,rubble

Proto *puηke== bend , knot , clump ; poηka =blister, swelling; (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ p~b,a~u,ŋ~g,_,] >> buŋ =blister;
Magyar/Hungar [ b~f,u~o,g,e~i,] >> bog- =knot, bog-oz=unknot, ( bog-lya=hay stack "clump" <
Vogul/Mansi [ p,u~o~ö,ηk>ηχ,,] >> puηk-el, poχlèp = button or knob like;
Ostyak/Khanti [ p,u~o~ö,ηk>ηχ,,] >> puηk-el = tree knot; pŏń- =roll up, wrap up;
Votyak/Udm [ p~b,i~e,(η)g,,] >> pog =clump
Zuryen/Komi [ p~b,i~e,g~k,,] >> bug-iľ =buckle
Mordvin [ p,o,ηg,o,] >> pok-il =swelling, yarn wound up into a ball?;
Finn/Suomi [ p,u~o,nk,e~ie,] >> punka ?, puńa =twisted,tangled,kink;
Estonian [ p,u~o,ng,e~i,] >> pung=round protruberance;
Lapp/Saami [ b,u~o,ηk~ηg~gg,e,] >> buģge =bump, lump, hump, swollen -expanded object;

Proto *ratu== copper (nature) (metal) << common loanword from Caucasus area;
EmeGir/Sumer [ r,a~u,t~d,a~u,] >> u-ru-du=copper < *rattu
Magyar/Hungar [ r,a~e,z~s,u~o,] >> réz=copper;
Finn/Suomi [ r,a,t,_,] >> ratu-a=copper

Proto *raćε== fissure , narrow opening (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ r,a~u,š~s,i~e,] >> *raš > ri_ =to break open;
Magyar/Hungar [ r,a~e,ś>sz,ε,] >> réś=fissure, narrow opening (similar to rep-ed=crack open);
Vogul/Mansi [ r,o~u,š~č,,] >> roź, ruź=hole, opening;
Cherem/Mari [ r,a~o~u,č~ź~z,,] >> raž, rož=hole

Proto *säηke== air > sky > god (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ _,a,ŋ~g,_,] >> *aη > _an_ =sky, high, father of the gods [ŋ>n];
Magyar/Hungar [ _,e,g,e~i,] >> _ég_ =sky < säηke is-TEN =ancient+god;
Ostyak/Khanti [ t~l,ä~e,ηk>ηχ,,] >> säηGe =light,clear (sky,water)?; sa`ηki=the great god
Zuryen/Komi [ š,e~i,g~k,,] >> syn-öd=air; sinε-d=weather; _in-mar=god;
Finn/Suomi [ s,ä,nk,e~ie,] >> sää- =weather;
Lapp/Saami [ s~š,ie~a,ηk~ηg~gg,e,] >> šańń =weather;

Proto *sükse== autumn , fall , rainy season < to fall down (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ s,u~i,š,(e~a),] >> šuš 2, šu_2,4 =overcast, cast down; šeη 3,7 =rain
Magyar/Hungar [ _,ü~ö,sz,e~i,] >> _ösz=autumn, fall season < rainy season; áz=to get soaked;
Vogul/Mansi [ t,u~o~a,γt,,] >> tüyjs, takwəs =fall time, autumn;
Ostyak/Khanti [ t~l,u~o~a,γt,,] >> sögəas ==fall time, autumn;
Cherem/Mari [ š,u~o,kš,e,] >> šəžə =fall time, autumn;
Votyak/Udm [ š,i~e,s,,] >> siz'-yl, śiźel =fall time, autumn;
Mordvin [ s,u~o,kś,o,] >> śokś, sokś, śoks =fall time, autumn;
Finn/Suomi [ s,u,k,s,i,] >> syksy, syys =fall time, autumn;
Estonian [ s,u,k,s,i,] >> sügis =fall time, autumn;
Lapp/Saami [ s~š,o,k,s,e,] >> čâk'čâ =fall time, autumn;


Proto *terε= area of open land (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ t~d,a~u,r,i~e,] >> dari=driver of animals
Magyar/Hungar [ t,o,r,ε,] >> tér =plaza, area of open land; ter-el=to drive animals, to keep
within an area.
Votyak/Udm [ t~d,o~u~e,r,,] >> tär =to return, to fit in, find a place;
Zuryen/Komi [ t,o~u~e,r,,] >> ter-ni =have room, plaza

Proto *tompε== (t8mp3- ) hill , mound (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ d,a,b,,] >> dub > du_ 6, =pile up; du_=hill; du-d=mound;tem-en =foundation
Magyar/Hungar [ t,a~é,b,,] >> domb=hill, dob=pile/toss up?
Vogul/Mansi [ t,a~o~u,mp,,] >> tomp=hill, tump=island

Proto *tullε== fire > ignite > ??noon (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ d,a~u,_,l,,] >> dalla=to shine, appear, beam, ray; dal=south/Del132;
dill-en=oven;
Magyar/Hungar [ t,u~o,l,,] >> dél=south,noon ~ gyul 2 =ignite; del-ne=country oven;
Cherem/Mari [ t,o~u,l,,] >> tul=fire;
Zuryen/Komi [ t,i~e,l,,] >> ti?l=fire;
Mordvin [ t,o,ľ,ε,] >> tol=fire;
Finn/Suomi [ t,u~o,l,ε,] >> tuli=fire;
Estonian [ t,u~o,l,ε,] >> tuli=fire
Lapp/Saami [ d~t,u~o,l,l,ε,] >> dolla=fire (North Saami), tullâ=fire (South Saami)

Proto *tälwä== winter < cold ? (nature) [? talme m~w > talwe] (time)
EmeGir/Sumer [ t,a,l,_,] >> ten_=cold (l~n), en-ten =winter time (en=time locative);( L< > N)
Magyar/Hungar [ t,e,l,e,] >> tél =winter, tél-en =in winter time (en=time locative);
Vogul/Mansi [ t,ä~e,l,,] >> täl,toal=winter; tal-nə =in winter time; tãjt =snow;
Ostyak/Khanti [ t,ä~e,l,,] >> tat,taΛ,tal;
Cherem/Mari [ t,ä~e,l,,] >> tel=winter;
Votyak/Udm [ t~d,o~u,ľ,,] >> tol=winter; tõl-yn=in winter time;
Zuryen/Komi [ t,e~i,l,,] >> tel=winter;
Mordvin [ ť,ä~e,ľ,e,] >> ťeľe=winter;
Finn/Suomi [ t,ä,lv,ä,] >> talv=snow;winter; talvõ-na =in winter time/Vaadja;
Livonian [ t,e,l,e,] >> tōla =winter
Estonian [ t,ä,lv,ä,] >> talv=snow;winter;
Lapp/Saami [ d~t,ie~a,ľv,ē,] >> dalve=winter;

Proto *täwte== fire (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ t,a,b,t,(e~a),] >> tab=fever-to burn, sting, fever;
tab,tab2=fire,to burn; dib=to burn
EmeSal/Sumer [ z,e,b,t,(e~a),] >>
Magyar/Hungar [ t,e,-,d,e~i,] >> tüz =fire; ?tap-ló=tinder;
Vogul/Mansi [ t,ä~e,-,t,,] >> taβt=fire;
Ostyak/Khanti [ t,ä~e,-,t,,] >> tuγa,tut=fire;

Proto *tōwe== pond > lake (nature)
Magyar/Hungar [ t,u,e~i,] >> tav_, tó_ =lake
Vogul/Mansi [ t,a,i,] >> tō=sea; tәw, tog, too =lake; tuman, tur=lake
Ostyak/Khanti [ t,a,e,] >> tŏg, təw =pond;
Cherem/Mari [ t,ū,e,] >> to-mõž=
Votyak/Udm [ t~d,ū~ō,,] >> ty =pond;

Proto *tūle== ( & tul-ma) wind (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ d,a,l,(a),] >> tu_ 15 &
Magyar/Hungar [ t,u,l,e~i,] >> dúl =raging (storm,war,etc); [t>s?] szél=wind
Ostyak/Khanti [ t,u~o,l~Λ~t,e,] >> tul=storm
Cherem/Mari [ t,uu,l,e,] >> tel=wind
Votyak/Udm [ t~d,i,l,,] >> tel,tev=weather,wind;
Mordvin [ t,o,l,o,] >> tuuli=strom, wind;
Livonian [ t,ū,l,e,] >> tuul=wind

Proto *wete== [ also weðe ] water , river (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ _,a~u,š,(e~a),] >> _eš =water; _a_, _e_ 4=water; ?_id =river;
Magyar/Hungar [ v,e~i,z~s,e~i,] >> viz =water; _ügy =small river; _i_=drink, i-t-al= a drink;
Vogul/Mansi [ (w),i,t,i,] >> vüt ~_üt =water
Cherem/Mari [ w~β,e~y~ə,δ~t,e,] >> βət=water,river
Votyak/Udm [ v,o~u~e,_,,] >> va_, vu_=water
Mordvin [ v~β,e~i,d,o,] >> v'ed=water

Proto *wolnε== tin, lead (nature) (metal)
EmeGir/Sumer [ _,u~a,n,,] >> _an(-ak) =tin
Magyar/Hungar [ v,o~a,n,,] >> _ón =tin; _olom=lead;
Vogul/Mansi [ (v),a~o~u,l~Λ~t,n~ń,,] >> _alen =tin
Ostyak/Khanti [ (w),a~o~u,l~Λ~t,n~ń,,] >> _olnε, olna =tin
Cherem/Mari [ (β),a~o~u,l,(n),,] >> βulnə =tinn

Proto *wore== mountain , peak , nose , muzzle, forrested mountain (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ _,u~a,r,_,] >> _ùr = mountain pass, roof, beam; [w>b] bar=high peak/DEL26;
Magyar/Hungar [ (v),o~a,r,e~i,] >> _or-om=mountain peak(-om=formative); orr=peak,nose;
Vogul/Mansi [ (v),a~o~u,r,i,] >> _uor=mountain;
Ostyak/Khanti [ (w),a~o~u,r,e,] >> wur=wooded mountain
Votyak/Udm [ w~β,o~a,r,,] >> vyr=hill
Zuryen/Komi [ v~β,o~a,r,,] >> vor=forrest
Lapp/Saami [ v,œ,rr,e,] >> varre=forrest

Proto *äsε== to heat , become very hot > fierry (a) (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ a,š~z,,] >> izi =fire
Magyar/Hungar [ e~i,sz~z,ε,] >> izz-ó=glowing hot coal; iz-ik =being very hot; iz-ad=perspire;
Vogul/Mansi [ i,š,,] >> iš-m=hot,warm;
Ostyak/Khanti [ (j)i,t~l,,] >> əat, ŏl =to heat;
Votyak/Udm [ e,z,,] >> es-ty- =to heat;
Zuryen/Komi [ y,z,,] >> õz-jy=catch fire; õzty- =fire;ignite,light;
Mordvin [ ä~e,z,ε,] >> ež-ďa=to heat,warm
Lapp/Saami [ æ~a,ss~cc,ε,] >> accâ-gâs=

Proto *ćakä== drifting ice, thin ice (nature) << a fragment;
EmeGir/Sumer [ š>s,a~u,_,(a~e),] >> šeŋ_ 8=ice,snow
Magyar/Hungar [ s~cs,a~e,(j),e,] >> zaj, szaj, śaj =thin ice crust on water.
Vogul/Mansi [ š~tš~č,o~u,(γ~x),,] >> ćoχ =thin ice that floats before river freezes;
Lapp/Saami [ č,o>uo,kk,ē,] >> čuokke= =ice crust on pasture;

Proto *ćatta= canal, water channel; (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ š>s,a~u,t~d,a,] >> pa5-šita, par-šita =water channel;
Magyar/Hungar [ s~cs,a~e,t,a~e,] >> csat-orna =canal; < orna=?Kworezmian? (pat-ak=creek)

Proto *ćelke== sparkle 1, shine > star (heavens) (v) (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ z,e~i,(l),_,] >> zal_-ag 2, su-lu-ug=shine,star (-ag, -āk, -a =verbal formative
Magyar/Hungar [ s~cs,e~i,l,e~i,] >> csill-og =shine,twinkle,gleam> csill-ag=star;(-og verbal
Vogul/Mansi [ š~tš~č,i,l(γ),,] >> sül-,sülγ =flash,gleam,sparkle,twinkle;
Ostyak/Khanti [ š~tš~č,e,l(γ),,] >> śuli-lta=to shine,light;
Cherem/Mari [ č~ś,e~y~ə,l(γ),e,] >> tsəlγə-žam=to glimmer, shine; tsolγe=lightning;
Votyak/Udm [ č~ts,e~i,l,,] >> čiľ-al-,śijal-,śiľal-=to glisten, glitter, shine, sparkle;
Mordvin [ ć,e~i,lg~ld,o,] >> tśiľďo-r =to glimmer,shimmer,shine;
Finn/Suomi [ s,e~ie,l,k,e~ie,] >> selke-ä=shiny sky/; Karelian: ťšilke-ttöa (tś>s)=to

Proto *ćukka== (ćukka) peak , point (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ š>s,a~u,g~h,_,] >> suk-ud, zug-ud=height, tall;
Magyar/Hungar [ s~cs,u~o,k,a~e,] >> śág =mound, hill;(arch); csákó=peaked hat;
Vogul/Mansi [ š~tš~č,u~o~ö,k,,] >> ćakə =hill, peak;
Ostyak/Khanti [ š~tš~č,u~o~ö,k,,] >> sak =peak, point;
Votyak/Udm [ č~ts,i~e,k,e,] >> čuk=
Zuryen/Komi [ č~ts,i~e,k,a,] >> ćuk=
Mordvin [ ć,o,k,a~o,] >> ćoća-ńa =pointed, sharp;
Finn/Suomi [ s,u~o,kk~k,a~o,] >> sukki =peak +?
Lapp/Saami [ č,u~o,kk~hk,ē,] >> çok'ka =summit, mountain top;

Proto *ćuηkä==(ćiηkä) hill , peak , height (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ š>s,a~u,ŋ~g,_,] >> suk-un=height; suh-ur=crest; suhur=tree top;
Magyar/Hungar [ s~cs,u~o,g,e,] >> ség,ság,szeg =hill (old usage); szig-et=island;
Vogul/Mansi [ š~tš~č,u~o~ö,ηk>ηχ,,] >> śaχ-l=mound; säηk=hill,mound;
Ostyak/Khanti [ š~tš~č,u~o~ö,ηk>ηχ,,] >> ťäk=point,corner,cape,promotory; śŭηk=small earthen
Cherem/Mari [ č~ś,o~u,ηg~g,,] >> ťšoηga, šüηk =hill peak
Votyak/Udm [ č~ts,i~e,(η)g,,] >> ćuk=
Zuryen/Komi [ č~ts,i~e,g~k,,] >> ćuk=lonely hill, mountain, cone-shaped mountain or peak;
Mordvin [ ć,o,ηg,e,] >> ćoηgă=island
Estonian [ s,u~o,ng,ä,] >> sünk =higher
Lapp/Saami [ č,u~o,ηk~ηg~gg,ē,] >> čok'kâ=summit, mountain top;


Proto *čette== dark, early dawn; (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ s,e~i,t~d,(e~a),] >> *sudu > ud-šu =dark (metathesis) =become/time dark;
EmeSal/Sumer [ z~š,e,z~š,(e~a),] >> gan-'sis'=dark;
Magyar/Hungar [ s~cs,e~i,t,e~i,] >> śet-ét ~ śöt-ét =dark
Vogul/Mansi [ č~š,i,t,,] >> šät, šät-kur =greying sky, early dawn; jäl-šäte-mi=gets dark;
Ostyak/Khanti [ tś~ś,e,t,,] >> tšətī-mətà=dawn;
Estonian [ s,e~i,s,e~i,] >> sitik =black currant;

Proto *čittε== bake 1, cook, sun shine (heavens) (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ s,i~e,š,,] >> še_-ŋ =cook,boil,hot,heat; šuš-ur 2=stove,grill;
Magyar/Hungar [ s~cs,i~e,t,,] >> śüt=bake, sunshine; śül=is baking; śu-gár =sunbeam, beam;
Vogul/Mansi [ č~š,i~ü,t,,] >> šit- =sunshine, šiti=bake;

Proto *čuηk-ara= (?) sunbeam, ray of light (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ s,a~u,ŋ~g,-,a,r,a,] >> suku 11= shine brightly + ara =light
Magyar/Hungar [ s~cs,u~o,g,-,a~e,r,a~e,] >> sug-ár =sunbeam, ray of light, ray;
Vogul/Mansi [ č~š,u~o~ö,ηk>ηχ,-,o~u,r,,] >> sax =sunny;

Proto *śala== lightning (also *ćelke) (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ š>s,a~u,l,a,] >> zal =bright, luminous
Vogul/Mansi [ s~t,o~u,l~Λ~t,,] >> sal =flash; sal-na =lightning;
Ostyak/Khanti [ s~t,o~u,l~Λ~t,,] >> săt, sătə-mt- =flash (of lightning); paj-săt =lightning and
Finn/Suomi [ s,a,l,a~o,] >> sala-ma =lightning (-ma=formative)

Proto *śene== (ś8"ne) tinder or *śüðe =charcoal (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ š>s,e~i,(n),] >> šeg_ 6 ?=hot (η>g) [if šene > śeηe then šeg)
Magyar/Hungar [ sz,e~i,n,e~i,] >> szén_ =coal; (in Hungarian the two words became mixed)
Vogul/Mansi [ s~t,i,n~ń,i,] >> süli=coal; seeni, šeeni=fungus on trees;
šiini=tuber,protruberance on a birch;
Ostyak/Khanti [ s~t,e,n~ń,e,] >> säńə =tinder fungus on birch trees;
Cherem/Mari [ š~s,e~y~ə,(n),e,] >> šin, šen =fungus, tinder;
Votyak/Udm [ ś~š,e~i,n,,] >> seηka, śeηkõ, śeηki
Mordvin [ š~ś,e~i,n,o,] >> šen, šin=fungus;, tinder;
Finn/Suomi [ s,e~ie,n,e~ie,] >> sieni=fungus (used for tinder)
Estonian [ s,e~i,n,e~i,] >> seen=fungus (used for tinder)
Lapp/Saami [ č,æ~ie~i,ń~n,e,] >> čadna =tinder fungus on birch trees; (?? dn)

Proto *śoηke== (s8"ŋε) wedge , spike , nail (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ š>s,a,ŋ~g,_,] >> sag-tag 2,3,4 =wedge, triangle; sah-in=peg, nail;
Magyar/Hungar [ sz,a~é,g,e~i,] >> szeg~szög=wedge,spike,nail,triangle;
_ék=wedge; cseg-ely=wedge shaped;
Vogul/Mansi [ s~t,a~o~u,ηk>ηχ,,] >> seηka, seηk =spike, wedge
Votyak/Udm [ ś~š,o~a,(η)g,,] >> čog =peg, spike; ťšog =nail;
Zuryen/Komi [ ś~š,o~a,g~k,,] >> čuk=mountain;

Proto *śurε== pitch (tree) (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ š>s,a~u,r,i~e,] >> esir-hia 2, esir 2 =bitumen , pitch;
Magyar/Hungar [ sz,u~o,r,ε,] >> szúr-ok=pitch, tar, blackened by smoke
Votyak/Udm [ ś~š,i~e,r,,] >> śir=resin, tar;
Zuryen/Komi [ ś~š,i~e,r,,] >> śir=bitumen, resin, tar;

Proto *šappe== dry up, receeding water (v) (nature)
Magyar/Hungar [ _,a~e,p~b,e~i,] >> _ap-ad =receeding waters
Votyak/Udm [ š,e~y,p,,] >> šup-al-=dry out, receeding water
Zuryen/Komi [ š,e~y,p~b,,] >> šup-al-ni=receeding water

Proto *šarε== flood , storm (nature) or *are=watery, swampy place; (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ (s~š),a~u,r,i~e,] >> _ur,_ri,_ra=flood, uru2,5,18: n.,
devastating flood; arah=to drown;
Magyar/Hungar [ _,a~e,r,ε,] >> _ár =flood, ár-aszt = to irrigate by flooding; áram =stream,
Vogul/Mansi [ t,o~u,r,,] >> tur/tor=
Ostyak/Khanti [ t~l,o~u,r,,] >> uri =ancient riverbed that partly dried up and formed a small
Votyak/Udm [ š,e~y,r,,] >> šor=
Mordvin [ š~č,a,r,ε,] >> uro=flood
Finn/Suomi [ _,a,r,ε,] >> _aro =shallow inlet of a river/Karelian; grassed low lying

Proto *šäre-== rivulet , vein , spring (nature) (body)
EmeGir/Sumer [ š,a,r,e~i,-,] >> sùr=ditch,drain; sug=swamp, flood basin;
Magyar/Hungar [ _,e,r,e~i,-,] >> _ér_=rivulet,vein;
Vogul/Mansi [ t,ä~e,r,i,-,] >> tūr=lake, tor =lake;
Ostyak/Khanti [ t~l,ä~e,r,e,-,] >> tor =lake; lar =high watter;
Cherem/Mari [ z,ä~e,r,e,-,] >> šär 2
Votyak/Udm [ š,o~u,r,o~u~e,-,] >> šur = river, stream;
Zuryen/Komi [ š,e~i,r,o~u~e,-,] >> šor = river, stream;
Livonian [ _,e,r,e,-,] >> _ur-ga =stream/Liv

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nJohn West-Hungary
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Postby nJohn West-Hungary » 2007-11-30, 8:57

.



Hi, millenia !


Do you know work of SZABÉDI LÁSZLÓ ?

[url]http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szabédi_László[/url]

In his work ( A magyar nyelv őstörténete. A finnugor és az indoeurópai nyelvek közös eredetének bizonyítékai, Bukarest, Kriterion, 1974)

there are the LATIN ( PROTO LATIN) and the FU languages belong to the ANCIANT LATIN, and Anciant Latin splited proto-latin and FU cc. 1500 BD.

He ( Szabédi) educed more and more (FU) and hungarian words from anciant latin by regulated voice mutations.....


E.G:

GRE:TIA (anciant latin) proto-FU *KRE:TJE ---> FU *KE:TJE ---> UG *KETY ----> magyar KEGY

KEGY +

KEGYes
KEGYetlen
KEGYed
KEGYetek

aspect variant:

KIES
KIETLEN
KIET
KIETEK

KE:D
KÉTEK


*KEGYE --> *KEJE *KÉ


etc...

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Postby Kuba » 2007-11-30, 9:33

nJohn West-Hungary wrote:[url]http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szabédi_László[/url]

English, please! ;) (Or German, Russian, Polish, Spanish...)

nJohn West-Hungary wrote:there are the LATIN ( PROTO LATIN) and the FU languages belong to the ANCIANT LATIN, and Anciant Latin splited proto-latin and FU cc. 1500 BD.

He ( Szabédi) educed more and more (FU) and hungarian words from anciant latin by regulated voice mutations...

:goodone: Quite a bold claim, to say at least.
Image
Image

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Postby nJohn West-Hungary » 2007-11-30, 11:51

Kuba wrote:
nJohn West-Hungary wrote:[url]http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szabédi_László[/url]

English, please! ;) (Or German, Russian, Polish, Spanish...)

nJohn West-Hungary wrote:there are the LATIN ( PROTO LATIN) and the FU languages belong to the ANCIANT LATIN, and Anciant Latin splited proto-latin and FU cc. 1500 BD.

He ( Szabédi) educed more and more (FU) and hungarian words from anciant latin by regulated voice mutations...

:goodone: Quite a bold claim, to say at least.



Hi, Kuba !

Sorry, I didn't find in these languages, but Esperanto okay (for the time being):

[url]http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/László_Szabédi[/url]


From "The anciant history of the Hungarian language. The proof of the common origin of the FU and IE" :

http://forum.index.hu/Article/showArticle?t=9137936&la=73759366

( I'd like to show bigger picture...)


:goodone: Quite a bold claim, to say at least
.



Look at the ALINEI.........


.

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Postby nJohn West-Hungary » 2007-11-30, 15:57

.



Well, Here are the bigger pictures:


E.G. 4 pages from 540 pages.....


http://img2.tar.hu/njohu/img/32902717.jpg#3

http://img2.tar.hu/njohu/img/32902716.jpg#3


.

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Postby millenia » 2007-12-01, 5:11

OK I finally remembered his book.

nJohn West-Hungary wrote:.
Hi, millenia !

Do you know work of SZABÉDI LÁSZLÓ ?

[url]http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szabédi_László[/url]

In his work ( A magyar nyelv őstörténete. A finnugor és az indoeurópai nyelvek közös eredetének bizonyítékai, Bukarest, Kriterion, 1974)

there are the LATIN ( PROTO LATIN) and the FU languages belong to the ANCIANT LATIN, and Anciant Latin splited proto-latin and FU cc. 1500 BD.


Thats pretty unlikely, if you ask me. The reason for some common words in Latin is Etruscan, which gave the Latin's many of their culture words and technology, not IndoEuropean words. Hungarian has also borrowed from late Latin, as that was the official language for a long time, even if the common people didnt use it much some tricled down.

The problem with Etruscan is that we only know some 250 or so words and their rough meaning. Some more certain than others. You know my list on that. There are a lot of words in Latin and German, Celtic, Russian and others which isn't IndoEuropean but are old European loan words. But you can't just take something that vaguely sounds similar and say thats a match. You must be a lot more rigorous than that. So maybe your examples could be used to show you what I mean.



nJohn West-Hungary wrote:.

GRE:TIA (ancient latin) proto-FU *KRE:TJE ---> FU *KE:TJE ---> UG *KETY ----> magyar KEGY


First of all I never heard of FU *kre:tje, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be. But it's unusual that no Hungarian FU comparison of it has been made, if it existed. I just dont know it. However, this is highly unlikely sound change IN HUNGARIAN. Hungarian or most languages would never loose the R, since R is a very stable sound in Hungarian. At most it may switch to an L, while usually it keeps the R. Sumerian has the word as ki.ag=love,care. I also tie the word kéj in the same basic root family, although that's "lust" but it follows the j~gy alternation sound rule and Sumerian creates g out of j often.

By the way Etruscan does have this word also, but not in the form which you list and which I dont think is related at all. Instead its Etruscan c=k,
and x is equivalent in sound relationship to gy in Hungarian, when its internal to the word;

cexa =care, good will kegy.
cexa =ritual, sacred things kegy - tárgy
ix =how,like this igy, hogy
mex = people, tribe, nation megy-er,magyar
+ar=plural suffix.
Ru max =the Roman people.
saxu, sacu=head *cäNkä > _agy=brain/skull
par + nix=magistrate (?grand judge) biró nagy.
fex- =to observe the rules fegy-el-em

I leave it to you guys to verify that the meanings
are IDENTICAL. No funny stuff. I however dont guarantee that every Etruscologist agrees in the interpretation of the words, but I didnt make them up. If you need I can give the sources.


Fred

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Postby nJohn West-Hungary » 2007-12-01, 23:26

.


Hi, millenia !

SZABEDI's sourcelist on the left page:

strangely M. BRÉAL at A. BAILLY: Dictionnaire étymologique latin 5-éme ed., Paris, 1902.


and

L. CLÉDAT: Dictionaire Étymologique de la langue francaise , Paris, 1914.

Szarvas-Simonyi: MAgyar NYelvtörténeti Szótár
Szinnyei József: Magyar NYelvhasonlítás
Bárczi Géza: Szófejtő szótár


http://img2.tar.hu/njohu/img/32934167.jpg#3



.

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Postby nJohn West-Hungary » 2007-12-02, 8:31

354 méh "bee"

ŠL 433/16, 8; MSL III 151/354, 433/2, 9; 433/22a; Gost. 90, 164, 776; Szabédi 59, 110, 242, 478

Sum. nim-gir, nim, num

Latin musca

Greek muîa, German Mücke


http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:ckOFQUmLsfYJ:mek.oszk.hu/05000/05021/05021.pdf+musca+latin+m%C3%A9h&hl=hu&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=hu



at SZABÉDI:

MUSCA ---- őslatin = MUSCA , nyelvjárásban *MUXA ,
FU: *MÜKSE
UGor: *MÜKHS / *MIKHS
magyar: *MIKH --- MÉH

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Postby millenia » 2007-12-05, 7:09

It looks like you found one of the few similar words in Mr Toth's book. Most are very bad comparisons, that often don't even sound similar, and don't have similar meanings. No sound rules to explain the differences. Not all bad, but too many are, which destroy the whole credibility of the method.
I have read Szabédi's book a long time ago, and I know he does have some interesting parallels, for which there can be much better explanations that Latin being related.

( merchant and ár=cost??? are not similar, however English ware is similar to _áru, since Hungarian oftel looses lead w.) When one is free to play the game of 'free association' with words, anything can be made to be related.

There are predominantly totally dissimilar words in this. I know there are some that are good, but you can't build on that small percentage. To try to make FinnoUgrian a branch of IndoEuropean is to me really crazy! There is one gentleman who has claimed the opposite, that IndoEuropean derives from FinnUgor. I think he is wrong also. These couldn't be more dissimilar languages, and never mind that they are now neigbors and share a lot of vocabulary, that's just the results of later influence. The key fact is that they have totally different typology. Latin however sort of sits on the border line because it does have many agglutinative features, which the later Romance languages never copied. Perhaps a result of the influence of Etruscan? as some have claimed. I could go through the many bad examples, but why bother? You should be able to notice them yourself, without being shown the obvious.

I liked this bee example though for Latin. Its a word shared with some IE languages. As for Sumerian, it doesn't look like they really know what their word for bee was. Normally Sumerian changes the ks sound cluster in *mukse to an s', so that *muks'e would become mus' in Sumerian, and this word has the description of a biting insect in the dictionaries? Is it a flying, biting insect? I don't know, but it's a safer bet that this is linked. Your example of nim, nim-gir is another flying bug, most likely a catepillar (lepke), which is a word that is totally unlike the word for bee, except that it has an "m" in it also. Thats not enough! Toth mentions sound rules but I dont see them being applied.

Belus wrote:354 méh "bee"

ŠL 433/16, 8; MSL III 151/354, 433/2, 9; 433/22a; Gost. 90, 164, 776; Szabédi 59, 110, 242, 478

Sum. nim-gir, nim, num

Latin musca

Greek muîa, German Mücke


http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:ckOFQUmLsfYJ:mek.oszk.hu/05000/05021/05021.pdf+musca+latin+m%C3%A9h&hl=hu&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=hu



at SZABÉDI:

MUSCA ---- őslatin = MUSCA , nyelvjárásban *MUXA ,
FU: *MÜKSE
UGor: *MÜKHS / *MIKHS
magyar: *MIKH --- MÉH

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Postby millenia » 2007-12-05, 7:20

Belus wrote:354 méh "bee"

ŠL 433/16, 8; MSL III 151/354, 433/2, 9; 433/22a; Gost. 90, 164, 776; Szabédi 59, 110, 242, 478

Sum. nim-gir, nim, num

Latin musca

Greek muîa, German Mücke


http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:ckOFQUmLsfYJ:mek.oszk.hu/05000/05021/05021.pdf+musca+latin+m%C3%A9h&hl=hu&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=hu



at SZABÉDI:

MUSCA ---- őslatin = MUSCA , nyelvjárásban *MUXA ,
FU: *MÜKSE
UGor: *MÜKHS / *MIKHS
magyar: *MIKH --- MÉH

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Postby Kuba » 2007-12-05, 12:41

nJohn West-Hungary wrote:GRE:TIA (anciant latin) proto-FU *KRE:TJE ---> FU *KE:TJE ---> UG *KETY ----> magyar KEGY

The acient Latin "cognate" would rather be "GRAICIA/GRAECIA", as far as I know...
There are similarities - but since FU and IE languages have been neighbours for a long time, cognates are usually somewhat shaky. I wouldn't exclude the possibility of a remote connection, but claims for superfamilies are not on sound ground, too, unfortunately too much time has passed without any literate societies.
Either way I don't understand why so many speakers of many languages are so eager to construct awsome theoretical unfirm buildings to prove their language is the oldest. All languages are old in a certain perspective...
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Postby millenia » 2007-12-06, 7:28

I agree that a lot of these superfamilies are useless, and often oversimplified as though that was the ultimate source. They aren't.
Comparisons are also done in a loose way, which also makes them not accepted.

Kuba wrote:
nJohn West-Hungary wrote:GRE:TIA (anciant latin) proto-FU *KRE:TJE ---> FU *KE:TJE ---> UG *KETY ----> magyar KEGY

The acient Latin "cognate" would rather be "GRAICIA/GRAECIA", as far as I know...
There are similarities - but since FU and IE languages have been neighbours for a long time, cognates are usually somewhat shaky. I wouldn't exclude the possibility of a remote connection, but claims for superfamilies are not on sound ground, too, unfortunately too much time has passed without any literate societies.
Either way I don't understand why so many speakers of many languages are so eager to construct awsome theoretical unfirm buildings to prove their language is the oldest. All languages are old in a certain perspective...


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