Hungarian and Sumerian?

Moderator: Ashucky

millenia
Posts: 57
Joined: 2007-09-22, 6:33
Real Name: Fred Hamori
Gender: male
Location: Huntington Beach, California
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Lead W

Postby millenia » 2007-11-12, 1:50

LEAD W usually dropps except followed by ä, Vowel +Nasal, Vlk
the lead W also modifies the following vowel, changing it to a back vowel a or u, which may be a way of indicating a w sound also. Just as Irish uisce in English is pronounced wiskey.


FINNUGOR *waićε== [wajćε] type of wild duck (bird)
EmeGir/Sumer _us,_uz << [ _,u,i~e,š~s,i~e,]<< #w/_, V/u/#w_, i/i~e, ć/š~s, ε#/i~e/C_,
Magyar/Hungar vöcs-ök << [ v,a~e,,cs~gy~s,ε,]<< #w/v, a/a~e, i//V_, ć/cs~gy~s, - ,

FINNUGOR *wara== wait > guard
EmeGir/Sumer _ùru << [ _,u,r,a,]<< #w/_, V/u/#w_, - ,a/a,
Magyar/Hungar _ör << [ _,a~e,r,a~e,]<< #w/_/_Rr, a/a~e, - ,a/a~e,

FINNUGOR *waśke= iron, valuable metal(metal)
EmeGir/Sumer (gu)_us-kin>gus-kin << [ _,u,s,_,]<< #w/_, V/u/#w_, śk/s, V#/_/Ck_,
Magyar/Hungar vass << [ v,a~e,s,e~i,]<< #w/v, a/a~e, śk/s, e/e~i,
Finn/Suomi vaski << [ _,a,s~ts,k,e~ie,]<< #w/_/_VP, - ,ś/s~ts, - ,e/e~ie,

FINNUGOR *were== blood (body)
EmeGir/Sumer _ùri << [ _,u,r,_,]<< #w/_, V/u/#w_, - ,e#/_/r_,
Magyar/Hungar wer > vér << [ v,o,r,e~i,]<< #w/v, e/o/_r, - ,e/e~i,
Finn/Suomi veri << [ w,e~ie,r,e~ie,]<< #w/w, e/e~ie, - ,e/e~ie,

FINNUGOR *wete== [ also weðe ] water
EmeGir/Sumer *_aš << [ _,u,š,(e~a),]<< #w/_, V/u/#w_, t/š/V_V, e#/(e~a),
EmeSal/Sumer _eš << [ _,e,z~s,(e~a),]<< #w/_, V/e/#w_, t/z~s/V_V, e#/(e~a),
Magyar/Hungar viz << [ v,e~i,z~s,e~i,]<< #w/v, e/e~i, t/z~s/V_V, e/e~i,

FINNUGOR *wetä== (wiδa) lead
EmeGir/Sumer _ùs- << [ _,u,š,(a~e),]<< #w/_, V/u/#w_, t/š/V_V, ä#/(a~e),
Magyar/Hungar vez-et << [ v,e~i,z~s,e,]<< #w/v, e/e~i, t/z~s/V_V, ä/e,
Finn/Suomi vetää << [ w,e~ie,t,ä,]<< #w/w, e/e~ie, t/t, ä#/ä,

FINNUGOR *weća== (weća) all
EmeGir/Sumer _aš_ << [ _,u,š~s,a,]<< #w/_, V/u/#w_, ć/š~s, a#/a/VZ_,
Magyar/Hungar _össz-es << [ v,e~ö,cs~gy~s,a~e,]<< #w/v, e/e~ö/_P, ć/cs~gy~s, a/a~e,

FINNUGOR *wike== (wīke) take
EmeGir/Sumer _ú_-s ? << [ _,u,_,]<< #w/_, V/u/#w_, kV#/_,
Magyar/Hungar visz << [ ve,v~z,e~i,]<< #wi/ve, k/v~z/F_V, e/e~i,
Finn/Suomi vii-ma, vie-dä << [ w,i~y,k,e~ie,]<< #w/w, i/i~y, - ,e/e~ie,

FINNUGOR *wińća== (? wića) watch
EmeGir/Sumer _ugu-la << [ _,u,g,a,]<< #w/_, V/u/#w_, ńć/g/V_, a/a,
EmeSal/Sumer _i.bí << [ _,e,b,e,]<< #w/_, V/e/#w_, ńć/b/V_, a/e,
Magyar/Hungar figy-el [v>f] << [ ve,gy,a~e,]<< #wi/ve, ńć/gy, a/a~e,

FINNUGOR *wiδe== brain marrow
Magyar/Hungar vel-ö << [ ve,l,e~i,]<< #wi/ve, δ/l , e/e~i,
Finn/Suomi _ydi-n << [ _y,t~d,e~ie,]<< #wi/_y/_DV, δ/t~d, e/e~ie,

FINNUGOR *wiηe== end
EmeGir/Sumer _ug 5,7,8 << [ _,u,(g),]<< #w/_, V/u/#w_, ηV/(g)/_#,
Magyar/Hungar vég << [ ve,g~v,]<< #wi/ve, ηV/g~v,
Finn/Suomi vii-mane << [ w,ii,_,]<< #w/w, V/VV/C_ηV, ηV/_/CV_#,

FINNUGOR *woje== (woje) butter
EmeGir/Sumer *_ui >_u_ , _ia << [ _,u,_,]<< #w/_, V/u/#w_, jV/_/CR_#,
Magyar/Hungar vaj << [ v,a~é,j,e~i,]<< #w/v, o/a~é, - ,e/e~i,
Finn/Suomi voi << [ _,a~o,j~i,e~ie,]<< #w/_/_VP, o/a~o, j/j~i/R_, e/e~ie,

FINNUGOR *wole== to be
EmeGir/Sumer _ul 4 << [ _,u,l,(a),]<< #w/_/_Vl, V/u/#w_, - ,e#/(a)/l_,
EmeSal/Sumer ma-al << [ _,e,l,(a),]<< #w/_/_Vl, V/e/#w_, - ,e#/(a)/l_,
Magyar/Hungar vola > << [ v,o~a,l,e~i,]<< #w/v, o/o~a/_l(j), - ,e/e~i,
Finn/Suomi _olla << [ _,a~o,l,e~ie,]<< #w/_/_Rl, o/a~o, - ,e/e~ie,

FINNUGOR *wolnε== tin
EmeGir/Sumer _an(ak) << [ _,u,l,n~ŋ,,]<< #w/_/_Vl, V/u/#w_, - ,n/n~ŋ, ε#//CC_,
Magyar/Hungar _ón << [ v,o~a,l,n,,]<< #w/v, o/o~a/_l(j), - ,- ,ε#//CC_,

FINNUGOR *wore== mountain
EmeGir/Sumer _ùr << [ _,u,r,_,]<< #w/_, V/u/#w_, - ,e#/_/r_,
Magyar/Hungar _or-om << [ _,o~a,r,e~i,]<< #w/_/_Rr, o/o~a/_r, - ,e/e~i,

FINNUGOR *woče==(? wače) loose
EmeGir/Sumer _úš << [ _,u,š,(e~a),]<< #w/_, V/u/#w_, č/š, e#/(e~a),
Magyar/Hungar vész << [ v,o,s,e~i,]<< #w/v, o/o/_Z, č/s, e/e~i,

FINNUGOR *wärkä== (?warka & worka) sew
EmeGir/Sumer bur_ << [ ba,r,_,]<< - ,rC/r, V#/_/Ck_,
Magyar/Hungar varr << [ v,e,r,k,e,]<< #w/v, ä/e, - ,- ,ä/e,

FINNUGOR *walka== (walka- ) take down > separate (v)
EmeGir/Sumer bal << [ _,u,(l),_,]<< #w/_/_Vl, V/u/#w_, lk/(l), V#/_/Ck_,
Magyar/Hungar vál-ik << [ v,a~ö,l,a~e,]<< #w/v, a/a~ö/_l, lk/l, a/a~e,

FINNUGOR *wälke== (wäľe 2) light
EmeGir/Sumer *bul << [ ba,(l),_,]<< - ,lk/(l), V#/_/Ck_,
EmeSal/Sumer bil << [ ba,(l),_,]<< - ,lk/(l), V#/_/Ck_,
Magyar/Hungar vil-ág << [ v,e,l,e~i,]<< #w/v, ä/e, lk/l, e/e~i,
Finn/Suomi vaalkea << [ w,ä,l,k,e~ie,]<< #w/w, - ,- ,- ,e/e~ie,

FINNUGOR *wamta== (wamta) forrest
EmeGir/Sumer bad << [ b,u,d,a,]<< #w/b/_aN, V/u/#w_, Nt/d, a/a,
Magyar/Hungar vad-on << [ v,a~e,d,a~e,]<< #w/v, a/a~e, Nt/d, a/a~e,

FINNUGOR *wänte== guard-
EmeGir/Sumer pàd > pà_ << [ ba,d,(e~a),]<< - ,Nt/d, e#/(e~a),
Magyar/Hungar véd << [ v,e,d,e~i,]<< #w/v, ä/e, Nt/d, e/e~i,

FINNUGOR *wäre== daybreak (time)
EmeGir/Sumer bar 6,7 << [ ba,r,_,]<< - ,- ,e#/_/r_,
Magyar/Hungar vir-ad << [ v,e,r,e~i,]<< #w/v, ä/e, - ,e/e~i,

FINNUGOR *wärηε== [warε] crow (bird)
EmeGir/Sumer bur-u 4,5 << [ ba,r,,]<< - ,rC/r, ε#//CC_,
Magyar/Hungar varj-ú << [ v,e,r,g~v,]<< #w/v, ä/e, - ,ηV/g~v,
Finn/Suomi var-is << [ w,ä,r,(v),ε,]<< #w/w, - ,- ,η/(v), ε#/ε,

FINNUGOR *wäδε== [also wiδe] kill (v) Ugrian > waδe
EmeGir/Sumer bad << [ ba,d,i~e,]<< - ,δ/d, ε#/i~e/C_,
Magyar/Hungar _öl << [ _,e,l,ε,]<< #w/_/_VA, ä/e, δ/l , - ,

FINNUGOR *waηe== (*waηe) cut
EmeGir/Sumer bi_ 6 << [ b,u,(g),]<< #w/b/_aN, V/u/#w_, ηV/(g)/_#,
Magyar/Hungar vág << [ v,a~e,g~v,]<< #w/v, a/a~e, ηV/g~v,
Finn/Suomi veitsi << [ w,aa,_,]<< #w/w, V/VV/C_ηV, ηV/_/CV_#,

FINNUGOR *wāće== switch, frame (of structures)
EmeGir/Sumer _uš << [ _,u,š~s,(e~a),]<< #w/_, V/u/#w_, ć/š~s, e#/(e~a),
Magyar/Hungar váz << [ v,ā,cs~gy~s,e~i,]<< #w/v, - ,ć/cs~gy~s, e/e~i,

User avatar
nJohn West-Hungary
Posts: 679
Joined: 2004-12-31, 15:26
Real Name: John Nemeth
Gender: male
Location: Szombathely / Steinamanger / Savaria
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: Lead W

Postby nJohn West-Hungary » 2007-11-13, 22:46

"10). Prince, J. D. Materials for a Sumerian Lexicon with grammatical interoduction, 1908.


Tudok azonban magyarul, mégpedig úgy, hogy nálam jobban tudnak ezen a kerek világon, és, miután elolvastam a szumir szöveget többször is egymásután intenzíven figyelve annak ismerősen zengő otthonos dallamát, határozottan éreztem, anélkül, hogy bármit is értettem volna belőle, hogy az adott angol fordítás hibás. És akkor nekiláttam a szumir szóláncoknak és végigellenőriztem őket tagról-tagra éppen Prince - ismétlem kiváló - szófejtő szótára alapján, és az eredményt összevetettem az adott angol fordítással.


Nos, Prince világhírű szumirológus, nemzetközi szaktekintély s én nemhogy szumirológus, de a szó szakkövetelményei értelmében még csak nyelvész sem vagyok, merész; illetlen, sőt esetleg éppen nevetséges tehát ilyet kijelenteni, de a fordítás abszolút, sőt szinte hihetetlenül rossz volt.


Ám ítélje meg a magyar anyanyelvű olvasó maga.


A szumir szöveg, pontosan visszaadva a könyv literációját, így szól:
" nin - máe ni - zu - a - mu ú zae in - má -e -zu"


Angol fordításként ez - volt adva: "What I know thou (also) knowest for me" . (Amit én tudok te (is) tudsz számomra(?)) (A zárójelben levő beszúrás Prince betoldása a szöveg sántikáló értelmének támogatására.)


A to know (tudni) ige önmagában valóban intranzitív s a "what" (amit), mint határozatlan tárgy, még inkább intranzitívvé teszi. A fordításban, "amit én tudok" , magyarul is alanyi, tehát intranzitív, ragozásba kell tenni, vagyis a végződés -k (tudo-k), nem pedig -m (tudo-m). A szumir ige láncának végén viszont "-mu" van, a fordítás szerint intranzitív értelemben van, Prince megállapítása tehát helyes, és az én "agu- -", "mu- -m" elméletem megbukott. Az angol fordítás szerint! Sőt, mivel a mondat második felében levő "in" ige láncának vége "zu" (-sz), nem pedig a mi tárgyas ragozásunk 2. személyének (-d) megfelelő más végződés ("du" ?), a dolog elméletem számára még reménytelenebbnek látszott, mikor nekiláttam a szumir mondatelemzés keserves munkájának. Mindenekelőtt megkíséreltem tisztázni a "nin" jelentését, amit Prince "what"-nak fordított. Az angol "what"-nak már önmagában is nem kevesebb, mint négyféle jelentése van a magyarban: mi, mit, ami, amit, sőt jelenthet egy ötödiket is: milyen (mekkora). (What a mistake! Mekkora tévedés!). Az árja nyelvekben a mondatrészek kontúrjai megközelítőleg sem olyan élesek, mint a magyarban, ennélfogva hallatlan nehézséget okozott a "nin" angolnyelvű szófejtéséből, bármilyen gondos és alapos volt is az, kibogozni, hogy a "nin" lényegében vonatkozó névmás (11) , annak alaplényege tehát nem az, hogy "mi", hanem az, hogy a(mi), vagyis a vonatkozás maga.


Ebből fogaskerékszerű logikával következett egy csomó dolog. Az első mindjárt az volt, hogy a "nin"-t nem kell összekapcsolni a "más" szóval, és hogy korszerű képet kapjak a mondatról, leírtam a szöveget korszerű formában:


"Nin máe nizuamu, ú zae inmáezu" "




SUMER:

" nin - máe ni - zu - a - mu ú zae in - má -e -zu" = "Nin máe nizuamu, ú záe inmáezu! "


http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/hmult/cikkek/padanyi.htm

millenia
Posts: 57
Joined: 2007-09-22, 6:33
Real Name: Fred Hamori
Gender: male
Location: Huntington Beach, California
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Internal T

Postby millenia » 2007-11-14, 6:39

Intervocalic t changes to z in hungarian unconditionally
Intervocalic t changes to s in Sumerian when preceeded by a front vowel else its t or d.
Geminated tt remains t in Hungarian.
Geminated tt changes to s in Sumerian only when preceeded by a Sibilant else its t or d.

Proto *kota== house , room (of house) , tent , family~clan (house)
EmeGir/Sumer [ g>h,u,t>d,a,] >> kit-uš=dwelling place (archaism)> ku--eš 3=tent >> ga_ =house; ŋá_ =house _é_ house;
EmeSal/Sumer [ m,e~i,t,e,] >> ma_ = house; ba =house;
Magyar/Hungar [ h~g,a~é,z~s,a~e,] >> ház=house, room, family; haz-a =homeland; ház-as=married;
Ostyak/Khanti [ k,a~o~u,t,,] >> xot=house
Cherem/Mari [ k,a~o~u,δ~t,,] >> kùδe =summer house
Votyak/Udm [ k,o~a,_,e,] >> ka_, ko_, korka =house (kor=beam of house)
Zuryen/Komi [ k,o~a,_,a,] >> ka,ko, kerka =house
Mordvin [ k,o~u,d,a~o,] >> kudo =house
Finn/Suomi [ k,a~o,t,a~o,] >> koti =home; kota=hut, cook house;
Estonian [ k,a~o,d,ē,] >> koda =summer house
Lapp/Saami [ g,œ,ht~tt,ē,] >> goatte=tent, hut

Proto *kute== to drag , to tow (v)
EmeGir/Sumer [ g>h,a~u,t>d,(e~a),] >> gíd = (archaism?) to drag, to tow, to pull, long;
Magyar/Hungar [ h~g,u~o,z~s,e~i,] >> húz =to dragg, to tow, to pull; hoz=bring; hosz-ú=long;
Vogul/Mansi [ χ~h,u~o~ö,t,i,] >> kute, χåt =pull, drag; kass-um-ti=to pull;
Votyak/Udm [ k,i~e,_,,] >> kisk=to pull
Zuryen/Komi [ k,i~e,_,,] >> ki-ski-ni

Proto *käte==(käte) hand (body)
EmeGir/Sumer [ ŋ>g,a~u,š,(e~a),] >> kiš-ib=hand, wrist;kùš, a-kùš =forearm,cubit; haz-a =to
Magyar/Hungar [ k,e,z~s,e~i,] >> kéz =hand; kesz-tyü = glove; kez-el=to handle;
Savard/Hungar [ k,e,z~s,e~i,] >> kezi =hand;
Vogul/Mansi [ k(w),ä~e,t,i,] >> koåt ~ kåt, kä:t =hand;
Ostyak/Khanti [ k,ä~e,t,e,] >> ket, kot, =hand;
Cherem/Mari [ k,ä~e,δ~t,e,] >> kit=hand;
Zuryen/Komi [ k,e~i,_,,] >> ki_ =hand;
Mordvin [ k,ä~e,d,o,] >> k'eď =hand;
Finn/Suomi [ k,ä,s,i,] >> käsi =hand, kasivarsi=arm;
Estonian [ k,ä,s,i,] >> käsi=hand;
Lapp/Saami [ g,ie~a,ht~tt,e,] >> giettâ =hand;

Proto *kütē-ppε== center , middle (a) +ppε =formative suffix) (place)
EmeGir/Sumer [ k,u~i,š,ē,-,b,,] >> *kuz > guz--?=centrum (ref.uncertain) + ib=middle;
gis-ka=door sil
Magyar/Hungar [ k,ü~ö,z~s,ē,-,p~b,,] >> köz-ép=center, in between, küszöbb=doorsil;
Vogul/Mansi [ k(w),u~o~a,t,I,-,p,,] >> kwät-l=central; koťəťľ=middle;
Ostyak/Khanti [ k,u~o~a,t,ē,-,b,,] >> kŏt =between rooms; kŏD-əp =in the middle;
Cherem/Mari [ k,u~o,δ~t,ē,-,p,,] >> kêδ-al=middle
Votyak/Udm [ k,i~e,_,ē,-,p,,] >> _os-kusip=doorsil (os=door);
kosp =common area, space between two areas;
Zuryen/Komi [ k,i~e,_,ē,-,p~b,,] >> kosp

Proto *mete== honey (food)
EmeGir/Sumer [ m,e~i,š,(e~a),] >> mud-gi =sweetnes; ?? archaism
Magyar/Hungar [ m,e~i,z~s,e~i,] >> méz =honey; méz-es =honey like; >> édes, ézes =sweet
Vogul/Mansi [ m,i,t,i,] >> maγ =honey;??
Cherem/Mari [ m,e~y~ə,δ~t,e,] >> mü_ , müj =honey
Votyak/Udm [ m,o~u~e,_,,] >> mu_, mü_ =honey
Zuryen/Komi [ m,o~u~e,_,,] >> ma_ =honey
Mordvin [ m,e~i,d,o,] >> meď, mäd'=honey
Finn/Suomi [ m,e~ie,s,i,] >> mesi =honey
Estonian [ m,e~i,s,i,] >> mesi =honey

Proto *nate== sister in law ? Aunt (family)
Cherem/Mari [ #,(n),a~o~u,δ~t,e,] >> nudõ=younger sister of husband or wife
Lapp/Saami [ n,o>uo,ht~tt,e,] >> nóte=younger sister of wife

Proto *pata== heat,cook > cooking pot (tool) (v) also IE
Magyar/Hungar [ b>f,a~e,z~s,a~e,] >> föz =to cook; füt =to heat; faz-ék = large pot, kettle (-ék=deverb);
Ostyak/Khanti [ p,o~u,t,,] >> put =kettle;
Cherem/Mari [ p,a~o~u,δ~t,,] >> pat, pot = kettle (copper or iron)
Finn/Suomi [ p,a,t,a~o,] >> pata =cooking pot;
Estonian [ p,a,d,ē,] >> pada =cooking pot;
Lapp/Saami [ b,o>uo,ht~tt,ē,] >> batte = pot, cauldron;

Proto *pitä==hold , bind (v)
EmeGir/Sumer [ p~b,i~e,š,(a~e),] >> peš =palm frond (used as tying material?)
Magyar/Hungar [ b>f,i~e,z~s,e,] >> füz=to tie together, knit, lace together; füzfa=willow tree (used as rope)
Vogul/Mansi [ p,i~ü,t,,] >> pĭt =come, get, begin, become;
Cherem/Mari [ p,i,δ~t,,] >> pida, pidä- =knit, tie;
Mordvin [ p,i~e,d,e,] >> peďa =attach oneself; stick, adhere, start, begin;
Finn/Suomi [ p,i~y,t,ä,] >> pitä- =hold, keep;

Proto *putε== freezing , cold , icecrust (a)
Magyar/Hungar [ b~f,u~o,z~s,ε,] >> fáz- =being cold
Vogul/Mansi [ p,u~o~ö,t,,] >> pot=freezing; put=ice crust;
Ostyak/Khanti [ p,u~o~ö,t,,] >> pàtta=freeze, freeze over;

Proto *ratu== copper (nature) (metal) << common loanword from Caucasus area;
EmeGir/Sumer [ r,a~u,t>d,a~u,] >> u-rudu=copper
Magyar/Hungar [ r,a~e,z~s,u~o,] >> réz=copper;
Finn/Suomi [ r,a,t,_,] >> ratu-a=copper

Proto *taηketa== stiff (??from cold) (a)
Mordvin [ t,a,ηg,e~i,d,a~o,] >> tangoda=
Finn/Suomi [ t,a,nk,e~ie,t,a~o,] >> tankea =

Proto *tumpeta= a storage drum "drum+ deverbal" (tool)
Magyar/Hungar [ t,u~o,b,e~i,z~s,a~e,] >> dob-oz = a box, a cylinder, a container;

Proto *täηe-etε= quiver (tool)
Magyar/Hungar [ t,e,g~v,e~i,-,e~i,z~s,ε,] >> teg-ez =quiver; tok=case, container; dug=to hide
away, put away;
Vogul/Mansi [ t,ä~e,χ~γ,i,-,i,t,,] >> tä_ut=quiver; (?)
Ostyak/Khanti [ t,ä~e,ηk~ηχ,e,-,e,t,,] >> tīu_ət =quiver; (?)

Proto *wete== [ also weðe ] water , river (nature)
EmeGir/Sumer [ _,a~u,š,(e~a),] >> *_aš >> _a_ 4 =water;
EmeSal/Sumer [ _,e,z~s,(e~a),] >> _eš >> _e_ 4 =water;
Magyar/Hungar [ v,e~i,z~s,e~i,] >> viz =water; _ügy =small river; _i_=drink, i-t-al= a drink;
Savard/Hungar [ v,e~i,z~s,e~i,] >> vezi =water;
Vogul/Mansi [ (w),i,t,i,] >> vüt ~_üt =water
Cherem/Mari [ w~β,e~y~ə,δ~t,e,] >> βət=water,river
Votyak/Udm [ v,o~u~e,_,,] >> va_, vu_=water
Mordvin [ v~β,e~i,d,o,] >> v'ed=water

Proto *witä== (wiδa) guide, lead, steer, lead to (v)
EmeGir/Sumer [ _,u,š,(a~e),] >> _ùs- =to drive, to follow
Magyar/Hungar [ ve,z~s,e,] >> vez-et =lead, drive, direct; ?visz =to carry along;
Cherem/Mari [ w~β,i,δ~t,,] >> wide-, wüde =carry, guide, lead
Votyak/Udm [ v,i,_,,] >> βiδ-em =
Mordvin [ _u,d,e,] >> ved-ams=lead, wet'a
Finn/Suomi [ _y,t,ä,] >> vetää= 'ziehen'= to pull
Estonian [ _ü,d,ä,] >> veda-ma=lead

Proto *śata== hundred (number)< s'atha <IndoEuropean loan?
EmeGir/Sumer [ š>s,a~u,t>d,a,] >> sus=60 and 1/6 (equivalent multiplier)
Magyar/Hungar [ sz,a~e,z~s,a~e,] >> száz =hundred
Vogul/Mansi [ s~t,o~u,t,,] >> sååt
Ostyak/Khanti [ s~t,o~u,t,,] >> sot,sat
Cherem/Mari [ š~s,a~o~u,δ~t,,] >> süδö
Votyak/Udm [ ś~š,e~y,_,e,] >> sö_
Zuryen/Komi [ ś~š,e~y,_,a,] >> śo_
Mordvin [ š~ś,a,d,a~o,] >> šada
Lapp/Saami [ č,o>uo,ht~tt,ē,] >> čuotte

Proto *katte==(also χonte?)move
EmeGir/Sumer gud+uru << [ g>h,a~u,d~t,(e~a),]<< #k/g>h/_RC , a/a~u/C_C, tt/d~t, e#/(e~a),
Magyar/Hungar hot > hat~het << [ h~g,a~e,t,e~i,]<< #k/h~g/_R, a/a~e, tt/t, e/e~i,
Ostyak/Khanti ket-e << [ k,a,t,,]<< #k/k/_R, - ,tt/t, e#//CC_,
Votyak/Udm kut- << [ k,o~u,ť~t,,]<< #k/k, a/o~u/#k_, tt/ť~t, e#//_,
Zuryen/Komi kut-ni << [ k,o~u,ť~t,,]<< #k/k, a/o~u/#k_, tt/ť~t, e#//_,

Proto *kattε==[kuttε] back > hump > *kute =belly > abdomen (body)
EmeGir/Sumer *had >haš 4 << [ g>h,a~u,d~t,,]<< #k/g>h/_RC , a/a~u/C_C, tt/d~t, ε#//CC_,
Magyar/Hungar hát << [ h~g,a~e,t,,]<< #k/h~g/_R, a/a~e, tt/t, ε#//CC_,
Vogul/Mansi χutai << [ χ~h,a,t,,]<< #k/χ~h/_R, - ,tt/t, ε#//_ ,
Ostyak/Khanti kùt-λ << [ k,a,t,,]<< #k/k/_R, - ,tt/t, ε#//_,
Votyak/Udm gač << [ k,o~u,ť~t,,]<< #k/k, a/o~u/#k_, tt/ť~t, ε#//_,
Zuryen/Komi gač << [ k,o~u,ť~t,,]<< #k/k, a/o~u/#k_, tt/ť~t, ε#//_,
Finn/Suomi kanta << [ k,a,tt~t,ε,]<< #k/k, - ,tt/tt~t, ε#/ε,

Proto *kotteη== swan (bird) [Ugor][Altaic] (animal) (birds)
Magyar/Hungar hattyú_ << [ h~g,a~é,t,e~i,(v),]<< #k/h~g/_R, o/a~é, tt/t, e/e~i, η#/(v),
Vogul/Mansi kotàη, xotaη << [ χ~h,a~o~u,t,i,η,]<< #k/χ~h/_R, o/a~o~u, tt/t, e/i, η#/η,
Ostyak/Khanti kŏtəη << [ k,a~o~u,t,e,η,]<< #k/k/_R, o/a~o~u, tt/t, - ,η#/η,

Proto *kutte== (*kute) six
EmeGir/Sumer *gaš > _aš << [ g>h,a~u,d~t,(e~a),]<< #k/g>h/_RC , u/a~u, tt/d~t, e#/(e~a),
Magyar/Hungar hot(arch) > hat << [ h~g,u~o,t,e~i,]<< #k/h~g/_R, u/u~o, tt/t, e/e~i,
Savard/Hungar hotu << [ h~g,u~o,t,e~i,]<< #k/h~g/_R, u/u~o, tt/t, e/e~i,
Vogul/Mansi khat, hót << [ χ~h,u~o~ö,t,,]<< #k/χ~h/_R, u/u~o~ö, tt/t, e#//CC_,
Ostyak/Khanti hut << [ k,u~o~ö,t,,]<< #k/k/_R, u/u~o~ö, tt/t, e#//CC_,
Cherem/Mari kut << [ k,o~u,ť>ć,e,]<< #k/k, u/o~u, tt/ť>ć, - ,
Votyak/Udm kuusi << [ k,i~e,ť~t,,]<< #k/k, u/i~e, tt/ť~t, e#//_,
Zuryen/Komi kudyt << [ k,i~e,ť~t,,]<< #k/k, u/i~e, tt/ť~t, e#//_,
Mordvin kota << [ k,o,t,o,]<< #k/k, u/o, tt/t, e#/o,
Finn/Suomi kuusi, kuud-en << [ k,u~o,s,e~ie,]<< #k/k, u/u~o, tt/s/_e, e/e~ie,
Estonian kuus << [ k,u~o,s,e~i,]<< #k/k, u/u~o, tt/s/_e, e/e~i,
Lapp/Saami guťtâ << [ g,u~o,ťt~ht,e,]<< #k/g, u/u~o, tt/ťt~ht, - ,

Proto *kütta== dog (animal)
EmeGir/Sumer kudda? << [ k,u~i,d~t,a,]<< #k/k, ü/u~i, tt/d~t, a/a,
Magyar/Hungar kutya << [ k,ü~ö,t,a~e,]<< #k/k/_F, ü/ü~ö, tt/t, a/a~e,
Savard/Hungar kutha << [ k,ü~ö,t,a~o,]<< #k/k/_F, ü/ü~ö, tt/t, a/a~o,
Vogul/Mansi kuť-uw << [ k(w),u~o~a,t,,]<< #k/k(w)/_F, ü/u~o~a, tt/t, a#//CC_,
Votyak/Udm kuti << [ k,i~e,ť~t,e,]<< #k/k, ü/i~e, tt/ť~t, a#/e,
Zuryen/Komi kuti << [ k,i~e,ť~t,a,]<< #k/k, ü/i~e, tt/ť~t, a#/a,
Mordvin kut-ka << [ k,u~o,t,a~o,]<< #k/k, ü/u~o, tt/t, a#/a~o,
Estonian kut-s << [ k,u,ťt~ht,ē,]<< #k/k, ü/u, tt/ťt~ht, a#/ē,

Proto *latte== (l8ttε) watch
EmeGir/Sumer u-lut-in << [ l,a~u,d~t,(e~a),]<< #l/l, a/a~u/C_C, tt/d~t, e#/(e~a),
Magyar/Hungar lát << [ l,a~e,t,e~i,]<< #l/l, a/a~e, tt/t, e/e~i,

Proto *tuttake=?? raft [unknown origin] (tool)
EmeGir/Sumer ad-ag << [ d,a~u,d~t,a~u,_,(e~a),]<< #t/d/_R, u/a~u, tt/d~t, a/a~u/C_C, k/_/V_, e#/(e~a),
Magyar/Hungar tut-aj << [ t,u~o,t,a~e,(j),e~i,]<< #t/t, u/u~o, tt/t, a/a~e, k/(j)/R_V, e/e~i,

Proto *wettä-= to cast
Magyar/Hungar vet << [ _,e~i,t,e,-,]<< #w/_/_Vtt, e/e~i, tt/t, ä/e, - ,
Cherem/Mari üδem << [ (β),e~y~ə,ť>ć,ä~e,-,]<< #w/(β)/_VCC, e/e~y~ə/_C, tt/ť>ć, ä/ä~e, - ,
Mordvin viď-ems << [ v~β,e~i,t,ä~e,-,]<< #w/v~β, e/e~i/_C, tt/t, ä/ä~e, - ,

Proto *witte==(witte) five
EmeGir/Sumer _ia_ << [ _,u,š,(e~a),]<< #w/_, i/u/#w_, tt/š/i_, e#/(e~a),
Magyar/Hungar _öt << [ ve,t,e~i,]<< #wi/ve, tt/t, e/e~i,
Savard/Hungar (h)ütü << [ ve,t,e~i,]<< #wi/ve, tt/t, e/e~i,
Vogul/Mansi _ät << [ vu,t,,]<< #wi/vu/_D, tt/t, e#//CC_,
Ostyak/Khanti uet << [ _u,t,,]<< #wi/_u/_D, tt/t, e#//CC_,
Cherem/Mari wit << [ (β),i,ť>ć,e,]<< #w/(β)/_VCC, - ,tt/ť>ć, - ,
Votyak/Udm vit << [ v,i,ť~t,,]<< #w/v/_F, - ,tt/ť~t, e#//_,
Zuryen/Komi vit << [ v,e,ť~t,,]<< #w/v/_F, i/e, tt/ť~t, e#//_,
Mordvin v'eťe << [ v~β,i~e,t,o,]<< #w/v~β, i/i~e, tt/t, e#/o,
Finn/Suomi viisi << [ w,i~y,s,e~ie,]<< #w/w, i/i~y, tt/s/_e, e/e~ie,
Estonian viis << [ v~u,i~y,s,e~i,]<< #w/v~u, i/i~y, tt/s/_e, e/e~i,
Lapp/Saami viťtâ << [ v,i~ie,ťt~ht,e,]<< #w/v, i/i~ie, tt/ťt~ht, - ,

Proto *ćatta== war
EmeGir/Sumer sad_ , sa_-bad 2,3 << [ š>s,a~u,d~t,a,]<< #ć/š>s, a/a~u/C_C, tt/d~t, a/a,
Magyar/Hungar csata << [ s~cs,a~e,t,a~e,]<< #ć/s~cs, a/a~e, tt/t, a/a~e,
Finn/Suomi sota << [ s,a,tt~t,a~o,]<< #ć/s, - ,tt/tt~t, a#/a~o,
Estonian sita << [ s,a,ťt~ht,ē,]<< #ć/s, - ,tt/ťt~ht, a#/ē,

Proto *ćitta= canal
EmeGir/Sumer pa5-šita, par-šita << [ š>s,i~e,š,a,]<< #ć/š>s, i/i~e, tt/š/i_, a/a,
Magyar/Hungar csat+ orna << [ s~cs,i~e,t,a~e,]<< #ć/s~cs, i/i~e, tt/t, a/a~e,

Proto *ćatte-= foldable tent > tent from "bind" (house)
EmeGir/Sumer šud-ug << [ š>s,a~u,d~t,e~i,-,]<< #ć/š>s, a/a~u/C_C, tt/d~t, e/e~i, - ,
Magyar/Hungar sát-or << [ s~cs,a~e,t,e~i,-,]<< #ć/s~cs, a/a~e, tt/t, e/e~i, - ,

Proto *ćutte== ankle bone (body)
Magyar/Hungar csont << [ s~cs,u~o,t,e~i,]<< #ć/s~cs, u/u~o, tt/t, e/e~i,
Estonian konti << [ s,u~o,s,e~i,]<< #ć/s, u/u~o, tt/s/_e, e/e~i,
Lapp/Saami čutta << [ č,u~o,ťt~ht,e,]<< #ć/č, u/u~o, tt/ťt~ht, - ,

Proto *čette== dark
EmeGir/Sumer *sudu > ud-šu << [ s,e~i,d~t,(e~a),]<< #č/s , e/e~i, tt/d~t, e#/(e~a),
EmeSal/Sumer gan-'sis' << [ z~š,e,z~š,(e~a),]<< #č/z~š, e/e , tt/z~š, e#/(e~a),
Magyar/Hungar śet-ét ~ śöt-ét << [ s~cs,e~i,t,e~i,]<< #č/s~cs, e/e~i, tt/t, e/e~i,
Vogul/Mansi šät, šät-kur << [ č~š,i,t,,]<< #č/č~š, e/i, tt/t, e#//CC_,
Ostyak/Khanti tšətī-mətà << [ tś~ś,e,t,,]<< #č/tś~ś/_F, - ,tt/t, e#//CC_,
Estonian sitik << [ s,e~i,s,e~i,]<< #č/s/_VŜŜ, e/e~i, tt/s/_e, e/e~i,

Proto *čittε== bake 1
EmeGir/Sumer še_-ŋ << [ s,i~e,š,,]<< #č/s , i/i~e, tt/š/i_, ε#//CC_,
Magyar/Hungar śüt << [ s~cs,i~e,t,,]<< #č/s~cs, i/i~e, tt/t, ε#//CC_,
Vogul/Mansi šit- << [ č~š,i~ü,t,,]<< #č/č~š, i/i~ü, tt/t, ε#//_ ,

Proto *śette== ( ) tie
EmeGir/Sumer šed 3,4,5 << [ š>s,e~i,d~t,(e~a),]<< #ś/š>s, e/e~i, tt/d~t, e#/(e~a),
Magyar/Hungar szöt-es << [ sz,e~i,t,e~i,]<< #ś/sz, e/e~i, tt/t, e/e~i,
Cherem/Mari šüδ-əš ? << [ š~s,e~y~ə,ť>ć,e,]<< #ś/š~s, e/e~y~ə/_C, tt/ť>ć, - ,
Finn/Suomi siota << [ s,e~ie,s,e~ie,]<< #ś/s, e/e~ie, tt/s/_e, e/e~ie,
Lapp/Saami čâd-nâ << [ č,æ~ie~i,ťt~ht,e,]<< #ś/č, e/æ~ie~i/_C, tt/ťt~ht, - ,

Proto *śette== apart
EmeGir/Sumer sud,šed,še_ << [ š>s,e~i,d~t,(e~a),]<< #ś/š>s, e/e~i, tt/d~t, e#/(e~a),
Magyar/Hungar szét << [ sz,e~i,t,e~i,]<< #ś/sz, e/e~i, tt/t, e/e~i,

millenia
Posts: 57
Joined: 2007-09-22, 6:33
Real Name: Fred Hamori
Gender: male
Location: Huntington Beach, California
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: Lead W

Postby millenia » 2007-11-14, 7:40

A nin elég biztosan a régi elavult alakban van irva
és valoban niN vagyis ni(ng) és igy az az értelme
hogy valamijen tárgy, vagyis magyarul az egyik változata "anyag".

(Az) anyag(ot) ami(t) én is(mer)em úgy te-nek-em is(mer)-sz. [ v. ismerjed]
ning maé ni-zu-a-mu ú zae in-má-e-zu"
nag/nang =thing, material Hu. anyag
maé=that which Hu ami
ni = I, self Hu én
zu=know Hu is-mer=known of
em =I Hu -Vm =I (transitive)
ú=and or as/like Hu *új > úgy=like that
zae =you Hu te
in =for Hu -nek- =for
má =me Hu -em =me
zu=know Hu is(mer) =know of
zu =you Hu -sz =you (intrasnitiv

The thing which I know as you (should) know for me.
zu is also in Hungarian ész, since the verb and noun
in Sumerian is often the same. Hu; ész=mind, esz-el=think out, esz-es=smart.

M=nazal vellar ~ng; ù=és v mint, úgy.
Az anyag it lehet hogy csak egy jelzö hogy valami,


Belus wrote:"10). Prince, J. D. Materials for a Sumerian Lexicon with grammatical interoduction, 1908.


Tudok azonban magyarul, mégpedig úgy, hogy nálam jobban tudnak ezen a kerek világon, és, miután elolvastam a szumir szöveget többször is egymásután intenzíven figyelve annak ismerősen zengő otthonos dallamát, határozottan éreztem, anélkül, hogy bármit is értettem volna belőle, hogy az adott angol fordítás hibás. És akkor nekiláttam a szumir szóláncoknak és végigellenőriztem őket tagról-tagra éppen Prince - ismétlem kiváló - szófejtő szótára alapján, és az eredményt összevetettem az adott angol fordítással.


Nos, Prince világhírű szumirológus, nemzetközi szaktekintély s én nemhogy szumirológus, de a szó szakkövetelményei értelmében még csak nyelvész sem vagyok, merész; illetlen, sőt esetleg éppen nevetséges tehát ilyet kijelenteni, de a fordítás abszolút, sőt szinte hihetetlenül rossz volt.


Ám ítélje meg a magyar anyanyelvű olvasó maga.


A szumir szöveg, pontosan visszaadva a könyv literációját, így szól:
" nin - máe ni - zu - a - mu ú zae in - má -e -zu"


Angol fordításként ez - volt adva: "What I know thou (also) knowest for me" . (Amit én tudok te (is) tudsz számomra(?)) (A zárójelben levő beszúrás Prince betoldása a szöveg sántikáló értelmének támogatására.)


A to know (tudni) ige önmagában valóban intranzitív s a "what" (amit), mint határozatlan tárgy, még inkább intranzitívvé teszi. A fordításban, "amit én tudok" , magyarul is alanyi, tehát intranzitív, ragozásba kell tenni, vagyis a végződés -k (tudo-k), nem pedig -m (tudo-m). A szumir ige láncának végén viszont "-mu" van, a fordítás szerint intranzitív értelemben van, Prince megállapítása tehát helyes, és az én "agu- -", "mu- -m" elméletem megbukott. Az angol fordítás szerint! Sőt, mivel a mondat második felében levő "in" ige láncának vége "zu" (-sz), nem pedig a mi tárgyas ragozásunk 2. személyének (-d) megfelelő más végződés ("du" ?), a dolog elméletem számára még reménytelenebbnek látszott, mikor nekiláttam a szumir mondatelemzés keserves munkájának. Mindenekelőtt megkíséreltem tisztázni a "nin" jelentését, amit Prince "what"-nak fordított. Az angol "what"-nak már önmagában is nem kevesebb, mint négyféle jelentése van a magyarban: mi, mit, ami, amit, sőt jelenthet egy ötödiket is: milyen (mekkora). (What a mistake! Mekkora tévedés!). Az árja nyelvekben a mondatrészek kontúrjai megközelítőleg sem olyan élesek, mint a magyarban, ennélfogva hallatlan nehézséget okozott a "nin" angolnyelvű szófejtéséből, bármilyen gondos és alapos volt is az, kibogozni, hogy a "nin" lényegében vonatkozó névmás (11) , annak alaplényege tehát nem az, hogy "mi", hanem az, hogy a(mi), vagyis a vonatkozás maga.


Ebből fogaskerékszerű logikával következett egy csomó dolog. Az első mindjárt az volt, hogy a "nin"-t nem kell összekapcsolni a "más" szóval, és hogy korszerű képet kapjak a mondatról, leírtam a szöveget korszerű formában:


"Nin máe nizuamu, ú zae inmáezu" "




SUMER:

" nin - máe ni - zu - a - mu ú zae in - má -e -zu" = "Nin máe nizuamu, ú záe inmáezu! "


http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/hmult/cikkek/padanyi.htm

millenia
Posts: 57
Joined: 2007-09-22, 6:33
Real Name: Fred Hamori
Gender: male
Location: Huntington Beach, California
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Másik Szumir mondat

Postby millenia » 2007-11-17, 7:53

mu lugal ud ba-záh-dè-na-g'á nír-da hé-a bí-in-dug.

Angolul ugy magyarázák hogy:
He has declared by the name of the king when I shall run away (from the lord). A zárt rész híányzott.

*nime=name mu /Sumer név (m>v)/Hung
lu-gal=great man,leader/Sumerian elökelö/Hung
*luw=he,she/Ugrian lu=person/Sumerian ö/Hung
ud=time, when/Sumer idö=time/Hung
*kälä =arise,cross over gal=arise,big/Sumer kel/Hung

*pale=inside/locative ba-=from, ib=in /Sumer -ba=into,bol=from,out of/Hung
záh=run away/Sumer szök=run away, escape/Hung
*edhe =away dè=away/Sumer dh>l el/Hung
-na- =will/Sumer -na-=would/Hung
*me =I,me eN="eg'"/Sumer én, -ok=I/Hung
*najer=prince/Ugrian nír=lord,victor /Sumer nyerö=victor/Hung
*-ta =from -da/Sumer -tol/Hung
hé-a =be(imperative)/Sumer, hagy,-hat-=let it be/Hu
"legyen"
-bí-in =speak,said; besz(él)=speaks,talks/Hung
-dug4=auxiliary verb -dog =formtive-frequentive auxiliary.

Szószerint:
Neve (az) elökelö(király) idejé-ben szök-el-né-k (az) ur-tol légyen beszélgete.

Értelme:
A király nevé-ben beszélgete/mondta azt amikor elszöknék az urtol.

Fontos észreveni hogy a ragozási sorrend más, de a morfémák és szavak egyeznek. Az idö változtatot mégis.

User avatar
nJohn West-Hungary
Posts: 679
Joined: 2004-12-31, 15:26
Real Name: John Nemeth
Gender: male
Location: Szombathely / Steinamanger / Savaria
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: Másik Szumir mondat

Postby nJohn West-Hungary » 2007-11-18, 13:43

Hi, millenia !


It's a very big job. This is already a komplex dictionary ....




Other:






2,650+ SIMILAR IRISH AND FINNISH WORDS


WITH AN IRISH TIE-IN TO URALIC ROOTS







http://hometown.aol.com/irishWord/irish-finn3.htm




.

User avatar
nJohn West-Hungary
Posts: 679
Joined: 2004-12-31, 15:26
Real Name: John Nemeth
Gender: male
Location: Szombathely / Steinamanger / Savaria
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: Másik Szumir mondat

Postby nJohn West-Hungary » 2007-11-18, 21:52


User avatar
Vortarulo
Posts: 563
Joined: 2005-12-25, 12:41
Real Name: André Müller
Gender: male
Location: Leipzig
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Postby Vortarulo » 2007-11-18, 22:34

LOL, you guys are hilarious. :D :D :D

Honestly, this Irish-Finnish stuff is the most stupid crap I've ever read. I doubt that even 1% of all their words is even remotely cognate.

This should be a good proof to John & friends, that it's no big deal to find 63470562 gazillion "cognates" for two absolutely unrelated languages. I mean, hey, they're not even using PIE and PFU.

Ugh... such a huge website, so many nonsense.
[flag]de[/flag] ← native
[flag]eo[/flag] [flag]us[/flag] [flag]zh[/flag] ← fluent
[flag]nl[/flag] [flag]th[/flag] [flag]tlh[/flag] ← intermediate
[flag]fr[/flag] [flag]ddo[/flag] [flag]es[/flag] [flag]lo[/flag] ← conversational
...and also a little bit of [flag]la[/flag] [flag]zhc[/flag] [flag]pt[/flag] [flag]ru[/flag] [flag]tr[/flag] [flag]tpi[/flag] [flag]ja[/flag] [flag]bo[/flag] [flag]pl[/flag] [flag]id[/flag] and [flag]art-tkp[/flag]

User avatar
pastorant
Posts: 2627
Joined: 2005-05-31, 19:36
Real Name: Anthony Witherspoon
Gender: male
Location: ન્યૂ યોર્ક્
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Postby pastorant » 2007-11-18, 23:11

Reminds me of a site a couple of years back where they tried to prove Algonquin was derived from Old Norse!
toboggon = to (road) + vagon (wagon)

If I can find the site, I'll post it.
PastorAnt
ᏱᎦᏊ ᎣᏌᏂᏳ ᎠᏓᏅᏙ ᎠᏓᏙᎵᎩ ᏂᎪᎯᎸᎢ ᎾᏍᏋ ᎤᏠᏯᏍᏗ ᏂᎯ
yigaquu osaniyu adanvto adadoligi nigohilvi nasquv utloyasdi nihi
May God's blessings always be with you.
(Use Code2000 font to see)
Image

Cherokee, Yoruba, Esperanto, Spanish, Burmese, Amharic

User avatar
Zorba
Posts: 3169
Joined: 2006-03-24, 21:09

Postby Zorba » 2007-11-18, 23:45

Yeah It's scary to think someone obviously spent a great deal of time writing that Irish-Finnish nonsense. :?

User avatar
hanumizzle
Posts: 2932
Joined: 2007-06-22, 23:02
Gender: male
Location: concat(List.intersperse " " (map (x -> reverse x) ["lol", "tuw"]))
Country: US United States (United States)

Postby hanumizzle » 2007-11-19, 6:56

pastorant wrote:Reminds me of a site a couple of years back where they tried to prove Algonquin was derived from Old Norse!
toboggon = to (road) + vagon (wagon)

If I can find the site, I'll post it.


Maybe something along the lines of

http://www.vinlandsite.com/Lilnguaone.htm
Oleksij wrote:i wouldn't believe she's a psychiatrist in a million years
more like a psycho
but then...
all psychiatrists are psychoes


You'd better not pout, you'd better not cry
You'd better not shout, I'm telling you why
Santa Claus is dead

User avatar
nJohn West-Hungary
Posts: 679
Joined: 2004-12-31, 15:26
Real Name: John Nemeth
Gender: male
Location: Szombathely / Steinamanger / Savaria
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Postby nJohn West-Hungary » 2007-11-19, 11:04

Vortarulo wrote:Honestly, this Irish-Finnish stuff is the most stupid crap I've ever read. I doubt that even 1% of all their words is even remotely cognate.

This should be a good proof to John & friends, that it's no big deal to find 63470562 gazillion "cognates" for two absolutely unrelated languages. I mean, hey, they're not even using PIE and PFU.

Ugh... such a huge website, so many nonsense.





Zorba wrote:Yeah It's scary to think someone obviously spent a great deal of time writing that Irish-Finnish nonsense. :?



Hi, Vortarulo and Zorba !

It is YourS MIND only..
Where are the REDUCTION / DEDUCTION , ARGUMENTS... ?

The REVALUATION of the history.......

Don't You forget:

SCOTT LITTLETON - LINDA MALCOR: From Scythia to Camelot

A Radical Reassessment of the Legends of King Arthur, the Knights of the Round Table, and the Holy Grail (Arthurian Characters and Themes) (Paperback)



HUNGARIAN girdle iron mounting: from 9th C. AD:
Image


SCYTHIAN Gold Plaque Late 7th-early 6th centuries BC :
Image


HUNGARIAN girdle iron mounting from 9th C. AD:
Image

SCYTHIAN Gold Plaque in the Form of a Goat 6th century BC :
Image

User avatar
Vortarulo
Posts: 563
Joined: 2005-12-25, 12:41
Real Name: André Müller
Gender: male
Location: Leipzig
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Postby Vortarulo » 2007-11-19, 13:25

nJohn West-Hungary wrote:Hi, Vortarulo and Zorba !

It is YourS MIND only..
Where are the REDUCTION / DEDUCTION , ARGUMENTS... ?

The REVALUATION of the history.......


I was referring to the Finnish-Irish relationship here. It's totally obvious that it's sheer nonsense, one doesn't need to be a linguist there. And it is even easier to prove their theory wrong than to falsify your Hungarian-Sumerian theory.

Both the relationships of Irish Gaelic within Indo-European and the relationship of Finnish within Finno-Ugric / Uralic is well established. We can trace back almost any Irish root to their Proto-Indo-European form, which of course is not attested but makes sense when being reconstructed. Same goes for Finno-Ugric/Uralic, although the forms might be a bit less well established there.
Irish underwent an extreme change in grammar and sound. Even the most stable Indo-European words (like "nose", "night", etc.) which are quite similar in most IE languages, are scrambled until total dissimilarity in the Gaelic languages.

Thus, one <u>has</u> to compare the proto-languages, not some modern forms. Also Finnish underwent many changes, although they're not that large as in Irish.

The "paper" also fails to make a distinction between loanwords like Irish "IDÉ" (idea) and derivations like "AONAD" (unit) from AON (one), which has nothing to do semantically with the Finnish AINE meaning "material, substance". Just have a look at the translations: They bare almost no semantical relationship to each other.

From these points I deem that Irish-Finnish paper worthless and pseudo-scientific nonsense. And I'm perfectly sure that every sane linguist will agree with me.
Once again: This only refers to <i>their</i> paper. I also knew some guy who once tried to prove the relationship of (Caucasian) Avar and German(!). That was similarly laughable.

Oh, and John, Please leave your image spam at home, they prove nothing and this is not the right place to compare ancient artcraft. After all, they're all birds and horses and stuff... of course they resemble each other! :-P

- André
[flag]de[/flag] ← native
[flag]eo[/flag] [flag]us[/flag] [flag]zh[/flag] ← fluent
[flag]nl[/flag] [flag]th[/flag] [flag]tlh[/flag] ← intermediate
[flag]fr[/flag] [flag]ddo[/flag] [flag]es[/flag] [flag]lo[/flag] ← conversational
...and also a little bit of [flag]la[/flag] [flag]zhc[/flag] [flag]pt[/flag] [flag]ru[/flag] [flag]tr[/flag] [flag]tpi[/flag] [flag]ja[/flag] [flag]bo[/flag] [flag]pl[/flag] [flag]id[/flag] and [flag]art-tkp[/flag]

User avatar
Zorba
Posts: 3169
Joined: 2006-03-24, 21:09

Postby Zorba » 2007-11-19, 16:25

Reminds me of a history teacher that I had at school who tried to convince us all that the Pyramids of Egypt were built by Irishmen.

User avatar
Oleksij
Posts: 4762
Joined: 2005-06-28, 16:46
Real Name: Олексій Мірошниченко
Gender: male
Location: Nicosia
Country: CY Cyprus (Κύπρος / Kıbrıs)
Contact:

Postby Oleksij » 2007-11-19, 18:29

Zorba wrote:Reminds me of a history teacher that I had at school who tried to convince us all that the Pyramids of Egypt were built by Irishmen.

:biglol: Never heard that one before.

But the 'pyramids' of Kerry were built by Irishmen indeed.

Image
Moja ulica murem podzielona - świeci neonami prawa strona, lewa strona cała wygaszona, zza zasłony obserwuję obie strony.
My Youtube Channel
Last.fm

User avatar
Zorba
Posts: 3169
Joined: 2006-03-24, 21:09

Postby Zorba » 2007-11-19, 19:21

Yes! I had forgotten, his theory was based on the idea that structures like that (the 'beehive' stone huts) in Ireland were structurally similar to the Pyramids.

User avatar
nJohn West-Hungary
Posts: 679
Joined: 2004-12-31, 15:26
Real Name: John Nemeth
Gender: male
Location: Szombathely / Steinamanger / Savaria
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Postby nJohn West-Hungary » 2007-11-19, 22:04

Vortarulo wrote:
nJohn West-Hungary wrote:Hi, Vortarulo and Zorba !

It is YourS MIND only..
Where are the REDUCTION / DEDUCTION , ARGUMENTS... ?

The REVALUATION of the history.......


I was referring to the Finnish-Irish relationship here. It's totally obvious that it's sheer nonsense, one doesn't need to be a linguist there. And it is even easier to prove their theory wrong than to falsify your Hungarian-Sumerian theory.

Both the relationships of Irish Gaelic within Indo-European and the relationship of Finnish within Finno-Ugric / Uralic is well established. We can trace back almost any Irish root to their Proto-Indo-European form, which of course is not attested but makes sense when being reconstructed. Same goes for Finno-Ugric/Uralic, although the forms might be a bit less well established there.
Irish underwent an extreme change in grammar and sound. Even the most stable Indo-European words (like "nose", "night", etc.) which are quite similar in most IE languages, are scrambled until total dissimilarity in the Gaelic languages.

Thus, one <u>has</u> to compare the proto-languages, not some modern forms. Also Finnish underwent many changes, although they're not that large as in Irish.

The "paper" also fails to make a distinction between loanwords like Irish "IDÉ" (idea) and derivations like "AONAD" (unit) from AON (one), which has nothing to do semantically with the Finnish AINE meaning "material, substance". Just have a look at the translations: They bare almost no semantical relationship to each other.

From these points I deem that Irish-Finnish paper worthless and pseudo-scientific nonsense. And I'm perfectly sure that every sane linguist will agree with me.
Once again: This only refers to <i>their</i> paper. I also knew some guy who once tried to prove the relationship of (Caucasian) Avar and German(!). That was similarly laughable.

Oh, and John, Please leave your image spam at home, they prove nothing and this is not the right place to compare ancient artcraft. After all, they're all birds and horses and stuff... of course they resemble each other! :-P

- André



Hi, Vortarulo !

Sorry, but E.G. the HUNGARIAN-FINNISH COMPARISON is by MODERN WORDS !!!!!
And the problem is that, in those HYPOTHETICAL THEORY the hungarian words changed only from the FU's age..............

Where are the re-enactmented FU-words ???

The lingustics said the "KALA" (finn. --> changed ----> "HAL" (hung.) (=FISH)

but "KUOLE-" (finn.) -----> changed -----> "HAL" (hung.) (='die' )


etc....etc....etc......


So THESE are the nonsences .........but very.....


Image

User avatar
nJohn West-Hungary
Posts: 679
Joined: 2004-12-31, 15:26
Real Name: John Nemeth
Gender: male
Location: Szombathely / Steinamanger / Savaria
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Postby nJohn West-Hungary » 2007-11-19, 22:10

Vortarulo wrote:
Oh, and John, Please leave your image spam at home, they prove nothing and this is not the right place to compare ancient artcraft. After all, they're all birds and horses and stuff... of course they resemble each other! :-P

- André


Vortarulo !

Wherever is language, TEHERE are MINIMUM 2 men.....wherever are people, there are culture.......

User avatar
Paokala
Posts: 7
Joined: 2007-10-31, 2:07
Real Name: Alek Szahala
Gender: female
Location: Helsinki
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Postby Paokala » 2007-11-19, 22:32

millenia wrote:Lapp/Saami assâ- << [ a~ä,čč~ss,ie~a,-,l,ē,]<< #a/a~ä/_U, ś/čč~ss, e/ie~a, - ,- ,a#/ē,


Hmm, could you explain me the way you write your sound shift rules. They're really difficult to understand. Only things I understand are the symbols # (word boundary)and _ (place where sound shift applies). But the rules are otherwise really obscure, ie. #a/a~ä/_U or a#/ē?

millenia wrote:
Proto *lū== people
EmeGir/Sumer lú << [ l,a,]<< #l/l, ū/a,
Magyar/Hungar _ö << [ l,u,]<< #l/l, ū/u,
Finn/Suomi luu << [ l,uu,]<< #l/l, ū/uu,


Hmm, what does that 'luu' mean? I know only "luu" as 'bone' (< *luwe). And what's the ū/a after lú?
<img src="http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/~asahala/imagae/signature.gif">

User avatar
Vortarulo
Posts: 563
Joined: 2005-12-25, 12:41
Real Name: André Müller
Gender: male
Location: Leipzig
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)
Contact:

Postby Vortarulo » 2007-11-19, 22:54

nJohn West-Hungary wrote:Hi, Vortarulo !

Sorry, but E.G. the HUNGARIAN-FINNISH COMPARISON is by MODERN WORDS !!!!!
And the problem is that, in those HYPOTHETICAL THEORY the hungarian words changed only from the FU's age..............

Where are the re-enactmented FU-words ???

The lingustics said the "KALA" (finn. --> changed ----> "HAL" (hung.) (=FISH)

but "KUOLE-" (finn.) -----> changed -----> "HAL" (hung.) (='die' )


I'm not sure if I understand you right. But well... I think this is because we do have written examples of older Hungarian (written in those Hungarian runes), but – at least to my knowledge – not much written in old Finnish. Finnish and Hungarian are the best known FU-languages, even the best known Uralic ones. So one has to start with modern Finnish and old Hungarian. There's simply no Ancient Finnish to start with.

In Irish we have Old Irish, something Ancient Celtic and much more. Indo-European is very large, so one doesn't have to rely on modern forms of Irish.

You showed two good examples for cognates in Hungarian and Finnish, but I didn't really understand what you were trying to say there... Yes, <i>kala</i> and <i>hal</i> are cognates, and I think all Uralic languages have similar forms like <i>xol</i>, <i>xal</i>, <i>hala</i>, Saami has <i>guolle</i>. Even in the remote Uralic languages, they're of this velar+V+labial kind.

I'm not an expert in Finno-Ugristics, but I imagine that one can reconstruct the proto-words in Finno-Ugric or Proto-Uralic pretty well from that.

The only words that *I* find interestingly similar to Indo-European are the pronouns and the word "name".

<b>P.S.:</b> Oh, I get it! You wonder where the reconstructed words for Proto-Finno-Ugric are! Aaaah, right.
Well, there are Proto-Uralic-forms in the Starostin database, and the source says: <i>"This is the database that had been originally (in the early 90's) started by E. Helimski on the basis of Redei's dictionary (UEW), but left unfinished."</i> — sounds like well established proto-words for me.
[flag]de[/flag] ← native
[flag]eo[/flag] [flag]us[/flag] [flag]zh[/flag] ← fluent
[flag]nl[/flag] [flag]th[/flag] [flag]tlh[/flag] ← intermediate
[flag]fr[/flag] [flag]ddo[/flag] [flag]es[/flag] [flag]lo[/flag] ← conversational
...and also a little bit of [flag]la[/flag] [flag]zhc[/flag] [flag]pt[/flag] [flag]ru[/flag] [flag]tr[/flag] [flag]tpi[/flag] [flag]ja[/flag] [flag]bo[/flag] [flag]pl[/flag] [flag]id[/flag] and [flag]art-tkp[/flag]


Return to “Ancient, Classical and Extinct Languages”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest