Moderator:Ashucky
Varislintu wrote:Vortarulo wrote:Dear <b>Belus</b>, please switch on your brain and compare John's claims with my counter-claims. Then you'll see it's nonsense what he says.
They are most likely the same person, Vortarulo .
Vortarulo wrote:John, what you write is sheer nonsense. It has errors and mistakes everywhere! They are so easy to prove...nJohn West-Hungary wrote:TAIFU = TÁJFUN
TÁJ = CLIME / LAND / LANDSCAPE
FUN = it isn't in hungarian, but:
FÚ = to blow / to bluster
Okay, táj means land(scape) in Hungarian. But "Taifuu" is not a native Japanese word, it's from Chinese again: 颱風 (Mandarin: "tái fēng"), of which the 風 (meaning 'wind') can be tracked back to Classical Chinese "prǝm". You cannot claim that "prəm" and "fú" or "fúj" are any similar.
他 is a Chinese loan (M: "tā"; CC: "(s)laj").
佗 is a Chinese loan (M: "tuó"; CC: "(s)laj(s)").
多 is a Chinese loan (M: "duō"; CC: "taj").
田 is a Chinese loan (M: "tián"; CC: "lhin").
Again, no similarity, neither in pronunciation nor in meaning.
millenia wrote:John
A few simple basic structural similarities dont proove a relationship. While they are necessary to be part of the proof, they aren't enough by themselves. There are many agglutinative languages in the world, especially in the old world, most aren't related to each other. However if you want some good examples of Japanese FinnoUgrian comparisons from a linguist, check Lajos Kazár which rather naively talks of a japanese Hungarian linguistic relationship, based on a group
comparison of basic terms. He is a trained linguist who lived and thought in japan for years. However, he fails to mention that some terms are also Altaic and doesnt talk about those ties. Still there are plenty of FU like words that are very interesting, even if the two arent in the same langauge family due to the huge gramatical differences.
The MAGYAR (hungarian) and the JAPAN are inflective languages...
.A SIO jelentése ( átirata SHIO --- mert a SIO-t "szió"-nak kellene mondani ) japánul
magyar: SÓ = salt
többek között "SÓ", "SÓS VÍZ", dagály/árapály,
"salt, salt water, tides"
John, The Altaic word for water is SU if I remember right and the word salt doesnt come from sea water or ocean water or salt water.
Searched the database using shio rewritten as しお.
潮, 汐 [しお, うしお] - (n) tide, current, salt water, opportunity
**These have nothing to do with salt.
塩 [しお, えん] - (n) salt
a NI jelentései:
Searched the database using ni rewritten as に.
丹 [に] - (n) red, red earth
二 [に] - (num) two
荷 [に] - (n) load, baggage, cargo
[ニ] - (n) 4th in a sequence denoted by the iroha system, 4th note in the diatonic scale (used in key names, etc.)
*** So what does this have to do with NI in Hungarian?
HON jelentései:
Searched the database using hon rewritten as ほん.
本 [ほん] - (n, pref, suf) book, volume, main, head, this, our, present, real, counter for long cylindrical things
[ホン] - (n) phon (unit of loudness)
The association of the SAKA witht these words make
little sense. Its a simple sound alike asociation and nothing more. It prooves nothing more that most languages of the world have similar sounding words meaning different things and occasionally by accident they may partially overlap in meaning.
The Scythians definitely did not come from Japan I can assure you, but from somewhere just east of Europe. Some even say from eastern europe, depending on who you associate them with.
Associating these words to similar sounding Hungarian words without understanding the whole thing is a big mistake.
Personally I am also not a fan of Nostratic, because of several reasons.
1. The over simplified relating of sound alike words with a very vaguely similar meaning is often taken to extreme. This is not to say that all of it is rubbish, but perhaps a big chunk of it is rubbish.
2. The overly simplified "family tree" that ties together agglutinative and inflexional languages into one group without any attempt to relate the branches by some scheme appears to me as a greatly
oversimplifying things. It avoids the obviously much stronger relationships of certain languages to each other to maintain our ignorance rather than to advance our knownledge. It may even be a politically motivated move.
3. Indo European languages and terms are not properly analyzed to indicate those terms which are common to indoEuropean proper, including Iranic and Hindi but many IndoEuropean terms are only in Europe and could be Old European substratum terms borrowed
by the conquerors from the natives.
4. By claiming all these to be IndoEuropean the old European survivors have been stripped of half of their own vocabulary and treated as outsiders and ignored.
Things are strirring however and changing.
LIST OF 35
with updates from our members.including Turkish speakers. The list was provided to me as an “excellent” test of relatedness. ?Then when the list was finished and published the person who offered it was silent. Its was not what he expected.
1) blood, *were /FU
vér/Hu, uir/Khanti,
bhür/Mari, vir/Votj, vir/Komi, veri/Finn,
varra/Lapp,
uri/Sumer, (#w >blk or b.) sumerian normally deletes lead w or uses b. it has no v or w.
2)bone, *luwe/FU
not in Hu, luu/Fi,Est; low/Vogul, ly/Komi, lu/Votj, lyy/Samoyed;
3)die, *kola /FU
hal- /Hu, hool/Vog, kole/Mari, kulem/Votj, kuole/Fi, kool-ma/Est, kaa/Samoyed
gul~halam=destroy/Sumer,
calu/Etruscan;
öl=die?kill/Turkic doesn’t match, where is the leading k/h/g? [Hungarian öl=to kill is a loan]
4)dog, (there are several words in FU) *kutta, *empe, *peni
*kutta: kutya/Hu; kuts/Est; kuts/Liv; kuti/Votj,Komi; kutka/Mordv (also in Hindi)
gidi =dog /Turk (not the usual word)
??kudda=to bite,biter/Sumer,
*peni: peni/Finn; puni/Votj; pon/Komi; piñe/Mordv;
*empe: amp/Vogul; ämp/Khanti; eb/Hungarian;
? kut >kurt =wolf /Turkic (perhaps but how do you explain the r?, this is not a match.)
*kur > _ur=dog /Sumer [ or-das=wolf (dialectical) in Hung ]
5)ear, *peljä =ear /FU
fül /Hu; pile/Mord; pil/Vogul; pil'e/Mordv; pel'/Komi; baelje/Lapp;
pi_, bur/Sumer [r~l alteration is very common in Sumerian according to Thompsen]
6)egg, *muñä =egg & testicle;(It can mean both)
mony,tojás/Hu; muno/Mari; muNi/Vogul; moñ/Fi; monne=egg/Lapp;
monne/Samoyed
nu-mun=seed, [m~n] nuz=egg, mu_ =penis/Sumer E.S.;
meni=sperm/Turkic
7)eye, *silma =eye /FU
szem/Hu; sem/Khanti; shin/Votj,Komi; shelme/Mord; silmä/Fi;
sima/Samoy;
Sumerian has si=see;
Sumerian igi=eye is not related to this but to
another FU term *koke =to see]
fire, *tawte, tat =fire; *naj =fire,light;/FU *tule=ignite,fire;
tüz=fire/Hu, taBt=fire/Vogul; tab =fire,fever;
tus-ti=in fire/Etruscan; dib=burn/Sumer
nai =fire,sun/Vogul,Khanti; nap=sun "fiery"/Hu;
nu (11)=fire /Sumer
tuli=fire/Fi; tol/Mordv; gyul=ignite/Hu;
dalla=shine,beam,ray/Sumer
tavish, teb, tav 'fire' /Turkic
9)fish, *kala /FU
hal/Hu; xul/Vog., kol/Votj,Mari; kal/Mordv; kala/Fi,Est; guöllé/Lap
kua~hu_/Sumer (trailining liquids drop, unless they are also first consonant)
[ balik=fish /Turkic does not appear to be related to kala, it’s a partially similar only, however a
k>h alteration with p >b however does exist in Altaic and even Japanese; nipon > nihon. So maybe it is possible. ]
10)full, *täwDe/FU D=dh, B=bh
tele/Hu; tail/Vogul; tet/Khant; dol-ak/Votj; täis/Fi;
dé_/Sumer, [Sumerian looses trailing l, j, N usually]
Thil-en, Thelu, thelu-sa =to fill/Etruscan;
dolu/Turkic
11)give, *amta =give <<give> dah/Sumer, (lead vowel lost when next consonant is a nasal mt)
ath~ut/Etruscan;
12)hand, *käte
kéz/Hu; kät/Vog; ket/Khant; kit/Mari; k'ed/Mordv; käsi/Fi,Est; giettâ/Lapp
Sumer has several terms kis-ib=hand,wrist kus'=forearm; haza=to hold;
kich 'leg' (dial.)/Turkic Note as a dialectical rare use it may be a loan, plus a leg should not be linked to hand.
13)horn, *shorwe =horn
szarv/Hu; sur/Mari; shur/Komi,Voth; shuro/Mordv;sarvi/Fi; coarve/Lap;
si_=horn, tur=horned animal/Sumer (s>t common in Ugrian)
?? sür- 'to butt'/Turk this is rather indirect tie in and can't be counted as a trusted match.
14)I, *me =I,me; (m~n)
én=I, -m=I,me/Hu; äm,män/Vog; miñ/Mari; me/Mari; mina/Fi
eng=self, -m =self,me; men=I,myself /Sumer;
_mi, me=I/Etruscan;
men, ben 'I' ; -m 'my, am' /Turk (also IE has matches with this) Ancient shared pronouns are common.
15)know, *tumte= know, can; *kac^ce =able,know,understand
tud =know,understand,táltos/Hu; tunte/Fi; tod/Komi;
tal/Sumer
tut- 'to understand'/Turkic
okos=smart/Hu; hoc^=understand/Vog; kuz^=able/Komi;
gas'-s'u/Sumer
16)louse, *täje=louse;
te-tü=louse, tü-z=to pierce,stabb/Hu; tij/mari; toj/Komi; täi/Fi;
?dih=sting/Sumer;
17)moon, *kuNe N=nk (nazal vellar)
hova>hav>hó=month; hód,hold=moon; xaw/Vog; koN/Mordv; kuu/Fi;
*hana > na-na=moon god; hada=shiny; _id=moon {k>h>blk)/Sumer
kamer, kemer 'moon' /Turkic (how about ai?) Its also interesting that the Turkic word for sun kün also is quite similar to uralic word for moon.
which is also in Akkadian as ku?
18)name, *nime =name,thing [also IE]
név=name,nem=type,sex/Hu; näm/Vog; ñim/Votj; lem/Mord; nâmâ/Lp
nam- =thing,material,abstracts/Su;
lum =abstracts/Etruscan
-lom=abstracts/Hungarian;
nam 'name', laap 'nick name' /Turkic
19) new = *wuDhe [Dh >l is common]
_új/Hu; _uu/Mari; vil/Udm; vil'/Udm; _uusi/Fi; _oDDha/Lapp
gi-bil /Sumer (gi should be viewed as a prefix or the root, since j>g in sumerian is common.) #w>blk or b;
20) nose= *wore or kure, (varies but in Hungarian its related to peak. It is not normally tied to nose in FU languages.)
_or=nose, orm=mtn peak/Hu; in other FU lang it just means peak;
kiri=nose,muzzle/Sumer; kur=mountain,peak, úr=roof,peak/Sumer;
bur-un =nose [*w>b] /Turkic
21) one, (this is explained in more than one way, and as such can have a bunch of synonyms.
*edil=single; *ükse=one <iNese>v), av=old /Hu; [ k>v is common in Hungarian.]
ii,ji= year/Mari; ije/Mordv;
ika/Fin; jakke/Lapp;
av-il=year,aged/Etruscan; {k>v}
(??m~v mu/Sumer)
ok 'time', okt 'time', chagh 'time, age, era', bil 'time', oza 'time', /Turkic
All technical criticisms are welcome, but simple jeers and sneers or useless oppinions will be just ignored.
Fred H.
nJohn West-Hungary wrote:and What is the origin of TAIWAN ( hungarian: TAJVAN ) ??
Tajvan 台灣, Taiwan and its capital: TAIPEI - TAIBEJ - TAJPEJ ?
TAI ( TAJ / TÁJ ---> ÉGTÁJ) ( in hungarian: TÁJ ---- TÁJék, TÁJol, TÁJékoztat, TÁJékozódik...etc... )
CHINESEs coming to TAIWAN in 18. centure only...
There lived the KETAGALAN ( NON chinese) tribes.
Today the native populace 2 % only....
millenia wrote:LIST OF 35
with updates from our members.including Turkish speakers. The list was provided to me as an “excellent” test of relatedness. ?Then when the list was finished and published the person who offered it was silent. Its was not what he expected.
Belus wrote:http://tmnall.iweb.bsu.edu/default.htm
millenia wrote:Your links were quite interesting. Its quite a wide net your group is trying to spread, but with a very small number of reference words. From reading what I could find there are a lot of questions that come to mind. But before that I would like to ask for your list of Sumerian words that were used, because my experience with this is that many of the words used in these Sumerian comparisons are quite mangled from their old forms and greatly truncated, thereby totally clouding their links. I am also curious as to how sensitive this comparison program is to sound changes, because after 5,000 + years such changes may also cover up the similarities. Many computer programs are quite lousy at patern recognition as I know from using automated programs, which most humans can outperform quite easily. In your list of language families with good results, very few were included that are no longer living in a close neighboorhod of each other. There was only one major one IndoEuropean listed. That should tell you that its not very capable of finding sound correspondences.
millenia wrote:Over 5 years or so ago we were tried a simple program called gloto, which was quite bad at recognizing more complicated similarities.. perhaps because of the lack of proper symbols, and too much reliance on the plain Latin alphabet. In any case we collected a list of 200 basic words from quite a large number of languages and the program could then plot out the language tree. This was far from perfect also since the lists given by modern linguists on Sumerian often has the problems I mentioned, although since then I have found quite a few of the old and more complete forms of the words also, that are much easier to match. So I dug up that old list and can share the results.
millenia wrote:Is there any way to force the mail to include a text file without being changed, by removing spaces?
Fred H.
Frebery wrote:The Hungarian laguage is a member of the Finno-Ugric family tree. Khanty and Mansi (languages) and the closest relatives of it, and these languages are spoken in little parts of Russia. It is related to Finnish although the similarity is very low because the base languages separated in about 3000 BC.
Oleksij wrote:i wouldn't believe she's a psychiatrist in a million years
more like a psycho
but then...
all psychiatrists are psychoes
Frebery wrote:I can just tell you what they teach in Hungary about Hungarian people because I only know that.
So, according to my teacher who teaches Hungarian and speaks Finnish fluently and lived in Finnland for years
Stacy wrote:Vortarulo I admire your noble effort in proving these misguided people wrong. I would like to point out that posting pictures of books does not guarantee that the contents are true. You can also buy this book but that doesn't mean the things in it are fact
Oleksij wrote:i wouldn't believe she's a psychiatrist in a million years
more like a psycho
but then...
all psychiatrists are psychoes
Vortarulo wrote:Belus wrote:http://tmnall.iweb.bsu.edu/default.htm
Okay. So what are you trying to tell us with this link, [s]John[/s] Belus? We already knew that the Formosan languages are considered to be Austronesian.
Thanks for the link anyway, maybe I can drag some 40-words-lists for some Formosan languages out of them (we haven't much of them in our project, currently).
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