ἑλληνὶς γλῶττα - ancient Greek

Moderator: Ashucky

User avatar
Oleksij
Posts: 4762
Joined: 2005-06-28, 16:46
Real Name: Олексій Мірошниченко
Gender: male
Location: Nicosia
Country: CY Cyprus (Κύπρος / Kıbrıs)
Contact:

Re: ἑλληνὶς γλῶττα - ancient Greek

Postby Oleksij » 2009-02-08, 18:12

Ποιός έβαλε την αρχαίαελληνικη γλώσσα εδώ ρε στόκε; :evil:
Moja ulica murem podzielona - świeci neonami prawa strona, lewa strona cała wygaszona, zza zasłony obserwuję obie strony.
My Youtube Channel
Last.fm

KingHarvest
Posts: 4168
Joined: 2008-03-21, 5:46
Gender: male
Location: New York
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: ἑλληνὶς γλῶττα - ancient Greek

Postby KingHarvest » 2009-02-08, 21:15

ημερείστε, παιδιά μου! The merge makes sense as people who know Ancient Greek tend to know Latin, and Modern Greekers don't necessarily know Ancient Greek or vice versa.
Most men are rather stupid, and most of those who are not stupid are, consequently, rather vain.
-A.E. Housman

User avatar
Dminor
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 3730
Joined: 2005-08-14, 20:29
Real Name: Stefan Norbruis
Gender: male
Location: Leiden, Netherlands
Country: NL The Netherlands (Nederland)

Re: ἑλληνὶς γλῶττα - ancient Greek

Postby Dminor » 2009-02-08, 21:46

On linguistic grounds, it doesn't make sense at all. :noclue: Do you think people wouldn't look for ancient Greek in the Greek forum?
काव्यशास्त्रविनोदेन कालो गच्छति धीमताम् । व्यसनेन च मूर्खाणां निद्रया कलहेन वा

modus.irrealis
Posts: 3677
Joined: 2007-10-04, 20:41
Gender: male
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)

Re: ἑλληνὶς γλῶττα - ancient Greek

Postby modus.irrealis » 2009-02-08, 23:54

But surely it should be Ancient Greek / Latin :whistle:

User avatar
Oleksij
Posts: 4762
Joined: 2005-06-28, 16:46
Real Name: Олексій Мірошниченко
Gender: male
Location: Nicosia
Country: CY Cyprus (Κύπρος / Kıbrıs)
Contact:

Re: ἑλληνὶς γλῶττα - ancient Greek

Postby Oleksij » 2009-02-09, 19:09

Dminor wrote:On linguistic grounds, it doesn't make sense at all. :noclue: Do you think people wouldn't look for ancient Greek in the Greek forum?

Obviously - both Ancient Greek and Latin are classics, but it makes more sense to keep an Ancient Greek thread in the Greek subforum, don't you think?

Προφανώς τα αρχαίαελληνικά και τα λατινικά είναι κλασικές γλώσσες, άλλα θα ήταν πιο λογικό να έχεις ένα αρχαίαελληνικό thread στο ελληνικό subforum, δεν νομίζετε;
Moja ulica murem podzielona - świeci neonami prawa strona, lewa strona cała wygaszona, zza zasłony obserwuję obie strony.
My Youtube Channel
Last.fm

KingHarvest
Posts: 4168
Joined: 2008-03-21, 5:46
Gender: male
Location: New York
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: ἑλληνὶς γλῶττα - ancient Greek

Postby KingHarvest » 2009-02-09, 20:12

Yet, I think the point still stands that Latinists are more likely to know Ancient Greek than Modern Greekers (especially considering the moderator of the Greek forum doesn't know Ancient Greek whereas I do).
Most men are rather stupid, and most of those who are not stupid are, consequently, rather vain.
-A.E. Housman

User avatar
Dminor
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 3730
Joined: 2005-08-14, 20:29
Real Name: Stefan Norbruis
Gender: male
Location: Leiden, Netherlands
Country: NL The Netherlands (Nederland)

Re: ἑλληνὶς γλῶττα - ancient Greek

Postby Dminor » 2009-02-10, 0:24

In that case you can also make me moderator of the Greek forum, I know both ancient and modern Greek. If you do too, you could also be the moderator. But in fact, it doesn't matter who is the moderator; people can just as well help without having that status. Or do you really think people who know both Latin and ancient Greek won't find the Greek forum to help over there or viceversa? It is really nonsensical to group languages together in this way and not on linguistical grounds. Especially in this case, not only because they are in fact different stages of the same language, but also, even though you may deem people who know Latin more 'likely' than speakers of modern Greek to know ancient Greek as well, we actually have some people here who do know both ancient and modern Greek, such as myself. I hope this decision can be reversed, it hurts my eyes.
काव्यशास्त्रविनोदेन कालो गच्छति धीमताम् । व्यसनेन च मूर्खाणां निद्रया कलहेन वा

KingHarvest
Posts: 4168
Joined: 2008-03-21, 5:46
Gender: male
Location: New York
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: ἑλληνὶς γλῶττα - ancient Greek

Postby KingHarvest » 2009-02-10, 1:03

If it bothers you that much, take it up with the higher ups. I didn't suggest the merger - I was asked if I could handle Ancient Greek in addition to Latin if the forums were merged.
Most men are rather stupid, and most of those who are not stupid are, consequently, rather vain.
-A.E. Housman

User avatar
obler9
Posts: 446
Joined: 2008-09-27, 22:17
Real Name: davide
Country: IT Italy (Italia)

Re: ἑλληνὶς γλῶττα - ancient Greek

Postby obler9 » 2009-02-11, 5:49

Latin and ancient Greek together under the Vatican flag?? :shock: :shock: :shock:

KingHarwest,

Seriously... I agree with people thinking Latin and ancient Greek can't be put in the same space.
Latin and Greek have not a real linguistic relation. Just it often happens they are studied at the same time because of the western classicist taste: but this is not a forum on the humanities; this is a forum on languages and Latin is a language, ancient Greek is an other one.
Neither ancient Greek should be placed in the same space with modern Greek... The most obvious thing it is to remake a distinct space on ancient Greek only: It should be even worse to put ancient and modern Greek together!
linguaholic wrote:I usually eat them with ketchup (I hate mayo, plus it's not vegan), also like satésauce (salty peanut stuff). Hummus sounds great, but I don't see anybody making that available here anytime soon.

Le parole sono importanti!

KingHarvest
Posts: 4168
Joined: 2008-03-21, 5:46
Gender: male
Location: New York
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: ἑλληνὶς γλῶττα - ancient Greek

Postby KingHarvest » 2009-02-11, 5:53

Once again: I am not the one responsible for the merger. If you have a problem with it, take it up with the moderators who are in charge.
Most men are rather stupid, and most of those who are not stupid are, consequently, rather vain.
-A.E. Housman

User avatar
Sean of the Dead
Posts: 3884
Joined: 2008-10-11, 17:51
Real Name: Sean Jorgenson
Gender: male
Location: Kent
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: ἑλληνὶς γλῶττα - ancient Greek

Postby Sean of the Dead » 2009-02-11, 6:03

Obler dear, Latin and Greek are both IE languages, so they are related linguistically, albeit a bit far. ;)
Main focuses: [flag]kw[/flag] [flag]he[/flag]
Sub focus: Plautdietsch
On my own: [flag]is[/flag]

User avatar
obler9
Posts: 446
Joined: 2008-09-27, 22:17
Real Name: davide
Country: IT Italy (Italia)

Re: ἑλληνὶς γλῶττα - ancient Greek

Postby obler9 » 2009-02-11, 6:26

sjheiss wrote:Obler dear, Latin and Greek are both IE languages, so they are related linguistically, albeit a bit far. ;)

sjheiss, please... You know what I meant. So we could make one forum on Italian and Norwegian because they're both IE languages.... or one forum on French and Swedish for the same reason.
The family is the same, but the branch is different: Latin is an Italic language, Greek is Greek: this is clearly what my poor English meant about "relations" between the two languages... Don't force me to point out obvious things.
Last edited by obler9 on 2009-02-11, 6:45, edited 1 time in total.
linguaholic wrote:I usually eat them with ketchup (I hate mayo, plus it's not vegan), also like satésauce (salty peanut stuff). Hummus sounds great, but I don't see anybody making that available here anytime soon.

Le parole sono importanti!

User avatar
obler9
Posts: 446
Joined: 2008-09-27, 22:17
Real Name: davide
Country: IT Italy (Italia)

Re: ἑλληνὶς γλῶττα - ancient Greek

Postby obler9 » 2009-02-11, 6:42

KingHarvest wrote:Once again: I am not the one responsible for the merger. If you have a problem with it, take it up with the moderators who are in charge.

I had read that. But I talk with you in order to convince you to ask the other moderators to solve this problem, since you know them better and since they made you moderator for this forum.
At least show them this discussion started by various users.
linguaholic wrote:I usually eat them with ketchup (I hate mayo, plus it's not vegan), also like satésauce (salty peanut stuff). Hummus sounds great, but I don't see anybody making that available here anytime soon.

Le parole sono importanti!

User avatar
ILuvEire
Posts: 10398
Joined: 2007-12-08, 17:41
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: ἑλληνὶς γλῶττα - ancient Greek

Postby ILuvEire » 2009-02-11, 9:50

obler9 wrote:Neither ancient Greek should be placed in the same space with modern Greek... The most obvious thing it is to remake a distinct space on ancient Greek only: It should be even worse to put ancient and modern Greek together!


I agreed with everything else, but this. I don't think there are enough people interested in Ancient Greek to have its own forum, similar to Old English on the English forum.
[flag]de[/flag] [flag]da[/flag] [flag]fr-qc[/flag] [flag]haw[/flag] [flag]he[/flag] [flag]es[/flag]
Current focus: [flag]ga[/flag] [flag]ar[/flag]
Facebook | tumblr | Twitter
“We need to make books cool again. If you go home with somebody and they don't have books, don't fuck them.” —John Waters

User avatar
ego
Posts: 4918
Joined: 2004-12-06, 15:19
Real Name: Thanasis
Gender: male
Location: SX
Country: GB United Kingdom (United Kingdom)

Re: ἑλληνὶς γλῶττα - ancient Greek

Postby ego » 2009-02-27, 13:55

Thank God I wasn't here to see ancient Greek under the Vatican flag.

About the 'tsk' sound, it's rather a click, actually it's exactly the c! sound of Xhosa, Zulu and the Khoekhoe languages. Sometimes we execute it alone without any movement of the head. Denotes boredom usually, when you are too bored to say 'no' or even more your head, you just say c!.
I always thought it is a middle eastern thing, I am not sure but I think Arabs do it too

InstantlyClassic
Posts: 1
Joined: 2009-03-22, 18:31
Real Name: Klaas
Gender: male
Location: Drachten
Country: NL The Netherlands (Nederland)

Re:

Postby InstantlyClassic » 2009-03-22, 18:56

ego wrote:1) Do you know what δυνητική ευκτική is in English? Something like "potential optative" I guess. There's also a potential indicative. I have a question about it. Does it have to be accompanied by ἂν always? I have seen clauses characterized as "potential optatives" even when ἂν was not present. When they were negative my guess was that μὴ was replacing it, but I have seen other clauses where no special particle was present. Like for example:
Οὐκ ἐποίησεν Ἀγασίας εἰ μὴ ἐγὼ ἐκέλευσα

2) According to my books, this is a 2d-class conditional clause, which expresses "a non-realistic and impossible hypothesis" and it should contain εἰ + past indicative in the hypothesis and potential indicative in the main clause.. So οὐκ ἐποίησεν Ἀγασίας is supposed to be "potential indicative".

3) So how do we distinguish potential optative and potential indicative from normal optative and indicative?


1] I think you’re right.

2] I’ve been taught that the protasis past indicative in such cases should contain ἄν.

3] A potential optative and indicative should be accompanied by ἄν in opposition to normal optatives and indicatives.

rotzi
Posts: 148
Joined: 2005-02-27, 20:37
Real Name: dominik s.
Gender: male
Location: DE
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)

Grammar question: what construction is this?

Postby rotzi » 2009-11-01, 12:57

Hi all,

I wonder what rule of Ancient Greek grammar justifies the following construction. I couldn't find an answer in Herbert W. Smyth's Greek Grammar (though I didn't flip through all the pages on syntax), so I'm posting here to get ideas from you.

Diog.Laert., Lives, 6.2.46: „Εἴθε καὶ τὴν κοιλίαν ἦν παρατρίψαντα μὴ πεινῆν.“
(rough translation: If only hunger could be chased away by merely rubbing one's belly.
see here for a source: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... hapter%3D2 )

What strikes me as odd is the fact that the sentence lacks a subject in the nominative. I would expect something like the following infinitive construction with an equivalent meaning:

* Εἴθε καὶ τὴν κοιλίαν παράτριψαι ποιοίη οὐ πεινῆν.

Is it a periphrastic form used in the original sentence? But what would be the subject?

Thanks a lot for any helpful hints.

Dominik

modus.irrealis
Posts: 3677
Joined: 2007-10-04, 20:41
Gender: male
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)

Re: Grammar question: what construction is this?

Postby modus.irrealis » 2009-11-01, 14:00

Hi,

This is just a rarer meaning of εἰμί which can be used impersonally to mean "it is possible" (see meaning A.2.VI in the LSJ entry). That's why there's no subject (although maybe you could make a case for the infinitive being the subject).

rotzi wrote:* Εἴθε καὶ τὴν κοιλίαν παράτριψαι ποιοίη οὐ πεινῆν.

Just to mention, this has a slight difference in that you used the optative instead of the imperfect, so (at least in Classical Greek), your wish is about the future while the other one is an unattainable wish about the present. (Also you would have to have μὴ here instead of οὐ).

rotzi
Posts: 148
Joined: 2005-02-27, 20:37
Real Name: dominik s.
Gender: male
Location: DE
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)

Re: Grammar question: what construction is this?

Postby rotzi » 2009-11-01, 14:13

Hi again,

thanks a lot. That leaves one question: why is the participle in the accusative (shouldn't it be nominative?), and why is there a participle at all (and not an infinitive)?

modus.irrealis wrote:This is just a rarer meaning of εἰμί which can be used impersonally to mean "it is possible" (see meaning A.2.VI in the LSJ entry). That's why there's no subject (although maybe you could make a case for the infinitive being the subject).

...except that there is no infinitive here, but rather an aorist participle in the accusative.

modus.irrealis wrote:Just to mention, this has a slight difference in that you used the optative instead of the imperfect, so (at least in Classical Greek), your wish is about the future while the other one is an unattainable wish about the present. (Also you would have to have μὴ here instead of οὐ).

Thanks for this hint!

modus.irrealis
Posts: 3677
Joined: 2007-10-04, 20:41
Gender: male
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)

Re: Grammar question: what construction is this?

Postby modus.irrealis » 2009-11-01, 14:34

rotzi wrote:That leaves one question: why is the participle in the accusative (shouldn't it be nominative?), and why is there a participle at all (and not an infinitive)?


πεινῆν is the infinitive here that's governed directly by ἦν. παρατρίψαντα here is the accusative because it goes with the implicit subject of that infinitive (and the subject of the infinitive is always in the accusative).

As to why there's a participle, I honestly think that's half the secret to understanding Ancient Greek :D. I know you were asking for the grammatical reason, but my experience is that Greek often uses a participle together with some other verb form where other languages I know would just use coordination. For example, I would say that this here is basically equivalent in English to "if only it were possible to rub your belly and not be hungry."


Return to “Ancient, Classical and Extinct Languages”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest