Old English Discussion

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Kirk
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Postby Kirk » 2006-05-30, 9:01

Nero wrote:
And this is not Old English, I think it's Early Modern English (or Shakespearan). Can someone confirm?


þu / ðu (thu) was the second person singular in Old english.

Somewhere in time it went to "thou" and then to "you"


Well, "thou" didn't transform into "you." It was simply replaced by "you" (except it wasn't replaced in those few dialects that still use "thou" or "tha"). "You" is not related to "thou," being from Old English "eow" which was from Proto Germanic *iuwiz, ultimately from PIE *ju.

einhar wrote:Another name for Freyr is Inguz or Ing.
Is England derived from this god Ing?


As Psi said, "English" derives from the term for "language of the Angles." "England" is from "Anglaland" (land of the Angles) but due to regular umlaut the /ɑ/ went to [ɛ] due to the following inflection. This explains the vowel difference between the "Angles" and the language they spoke, "Englisc," pronounced [ˈɛŋglɪʃ] in Old English.

Nendûr wrote:i had never thought about it from þu / ðu => Thou it just sounded more similar to they


Yes "thou" is actually a very old form, going back directly to Proto Indo European *tu (look at related forms in daughter IE languages: Latin tu, Irish tu, Welsh ti, Greek su, Lith. tu, O.C.S. ty, Skt. twa-m).

Regular sound changes from PIE /t/ > /θ/ produced Proto Germanic */θu/. PG */θu:/ then often became voiced due to a sandhi process, yielding /ðu:/ in many Germanic languages (most of which later hardened it to /du/ but a few languages like English and Icelandic have remained conservative in retaining the historical interdental fricatives). The Great Vowel Shift gets to take credit for the most recent change upon Old English /ðu:/, producing regular /ðaʊ/ in Modern English. Thus we have:

PIE */tu/ > PG */θu:/ > OE /ðu:/ > ME /ðaʊ/
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'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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Postby sa wulfs » 2006-05-30, 12:13

"Thou" is pronounced /ðaʊ/? Well, that's consistent with the long u of OE. ðú, but for some reason I always thought it was pronounced like you. Good to know.

I don't really like how /ðaʊ/ sounds, but meh.
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Hrōþabaírhts sa Wulfs | Hrōðbeorht se Wulf | Hróðbjartr Úlfrinn | Hruodperaht der Wolf | Hrôthberht thê Wulf

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Postby Alcadras » 2006-05-30, 20:48

i knew that old english and early english were the same :roll:

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Postby JackFrost » 2006-05-30, 21:00

Alcadras wrote:i knew that old english and early english were the same :roll:

???

Erm, Old English is Early English.
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Postby Alcadras » 2006-05-30, 21:10

erm,early modern english?

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Postby Kirk » 2006-05-30, 22:23

sa wulfs wrote:"Thou" is pronounced /ðaʊ/? Well, that's consistent with the long u of OE. ðú, but for some reason I always thought it was pronounced like you. Good to know.


Oh, really? You've never heard "thou" spoken? Did you grow up in an English-speaking environment?

I mean I know it's not that common anymore but "thou" is still heard every once in awhile, especially in fossilized phrases like "holier than thou" and other peripheral, if still noticeable, uses. Also, we had plenty of exposure to it in reading texts from Early Modern English in English lit. classes in high school.

sa wulfs wrote:I don't really like how /ðaʊ/ sounds, but meh.


Hehe--maybe we should just forget about the Great Vowel Shift and go back to Middle English? :D

[ðæt suːndz liːkʰ ɪt woɫdə beː weːɹd] ;)
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'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

I eat prescriptivists for breakfast.

maɪ nemz kʰɜ˞kʰ n̩ aɪ laɪk̚ fɨˈnɛ̞ɾɪ̞ks

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Postby sa wulfs » 2006-05-31, 10:07

[ðæt suːndz liːkʰ ɪt woɫdə beː weːɹd]

Hahaha :D

And for the record, I'm Spanish, and I've never been to an English-speaking country, so that explains why I've never heard "thou" spoken (my location is some sort of private joke) ;)
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Hrōþabaírhts sa Wulfs | Hrōðbeorht se Wulf | Hróðbjartr Úlfrinn | Hruodperaht der Wolf | Hrôthberht thê Wulf

Nero

Postby Nero » 2006-08-02, 23:38

So, Hwa her gecweðeþ þæt lǽden Englisc?

Eom Ic ánlíepig her? 8)

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Postby culúrien » 2006-09-03, 19:15

are there any books or internet resources whatsoever to learn old english?
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Postby ego » 2006-09-03, 19:33

celebrian23 wrote:are there any books or internet resources whatsoever to learn old english?


http://www.ucalgary.ca/UofC/eduweb/engl ... /index.htm

This one seems very good:

http://www.wmich.edu/medieval/research/ ... index.html

Old English is amazing and definetely on my list but not for now.. Perhaps in 2-3 years :oops: . Is anyone of you advanced?

Nero

Postby Nero » 2006-09-03, 19:43

ego wrote:
celebrian23 wrote:are there any books or internet resources whatsoever to learn old english?


http://www.ucalgary.ca/UofC/eduweb/engl ... /index.htm

This one seems very good:

http://www.wmich.edu/medieval/research/ ... index.html

Old English is amazing and definetely on my list but not for now.. Perhaps in 2-3 years :oops: . Is anyone of you advanced?


Those are exactly the two pages I've been using / would reccomend :lol:

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Postby culúrien » 2006-09-03, 19:59

what's one more language on top of the 6 i'm already learning :D
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Postby Dminor » 2006-09-04, 23:54

Oh man, I want to learn this tooooo :yum:
काव्यशास्त्रविनोदेन कालो गच्छति धीमताम् । व्यसनेन च मूर्खाणां निद्रया कलहेन वा

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Postby Gormur » 2006-09-05, 22:43

and to be accurate, we better use Elder Fuþark to write it. Forget that Roman alphabet. :evil:

:laser:
Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma

Nero

Postby Nero » 2006-09-05, 23:45

Gormur wrote:and to be accurate, we better use Elder Fuþark to write it. Forget that Roman alphabet. :evil:

:laser:


I thought Old English used the latin script, but with a few outdated letters:

Image

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Postby Gormur » 2006-09-06, 17:07

Nero wrote:
Gormur wrote:and to be accurate, we better use Elder Fuþark to write it. Forget that Roman alphabet. :evil:

:laser:


I thought Old English used the latin script, but with a few outdated letters:

Image


In England, the Futhorc was further extended to 28 and finally to 33 runes, and runic writing in England became closely associated with the Latin scriptoria from the time of Anglo-Saxon Christianization in the 7th century. The futhorc started to be replaced by the Latin alphabet from around the 9th century. In some cases, texts would be written in the Latin alphabet but runes would be used in place of the word it represented, and the þorn and wynn came to be used as extensions of the Latin alphabet. By the Norman Conquest of 1066 it was very rare and disappeared altogether shortly thereafter. From at least five centuries of use, less than 200 artifacts bearing futhorc inscriptions have survived.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_Futhorc
Eigi gegnir þat at segja at bók nøkkur er hreinferðug eðr ønnur spelluð því at vandliga ok dáliga eru bœkr ritnar ok annat kunnum vér eigi um þœr at dœma

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Postby culúrien » 2006-09-07, 1:49

No escric la cas asucative i nominative. Ho pots explicar? Estic confusa. En l'anglès vell. 8)
I don't understand the acusative and nominative cases. Can you explain? I'm confused. In old english. 8)
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Postby JackFrost » 2006-09-07, 3:38

celebrian23 wrote:No escric la cas asucative i nominative. Ho pots explicar? Estic confusa. En l'anglès vell. 8)
I don't understand the acusative and nominative cases. Can you explain? I'm confused. In old english. 8)

Nominative - I, he, she, we, they (subject)
Accusative - me, him, her, us, them (direct object)
Dative - to me, to him, to her, to us (indirect object)
Genetive - ours, mine, theirs, yours (possession)
Neferuj paħujkij!

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Postby ego » 2006-09-07, 11:44

So, is anyone fluent, advanced or intermediate in Old English?

Nero

Postby Nero » 2006-09-07, 21:16

celebrian23 wrote:No escric la cas asucative i nominative. Ho pots explicar? Estic confusa. En l'anglès vell. 8)
I don't understand the acusative and nominative cases. Can you explain? I'm confused. In old english. 8)


Oh right, because neither spanish nor Catalan/welsh/lakota/arabic/etc have cases :lol:

Nominative is what is doing the action.
Accusative is what is receiving the action

I carry the book
Nominative Accusative


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