Irish Study Group

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-03, 0:41

Okay, it's everybody else that's weird, and their answer key is still fucked up! :twisted:

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby kevin » 2018-07-03, 9:18

vijayjohn wrote:So does cé as tusa make any sense like the answer key suggests, or is it really just a typo for cé as thusa?

There's an awful lot variation I've heard for this phrase, so I'm almost sure that these are actually both possible, but I think the one I would default to for Connemara would indeed be with "thusa". But then, this is not the dialect I'm most familiar with, so take it with a grain of salt.

Though given the paragraph you quoted, where it explicitly introduces "cé as thusa?", I'd say it's just a typo here.

vijayjohn wrote:(And IIRC the f in féin is actually pronounced [f] in Munster and maybe Ulster).

It's [h] in Ulster, as it should be. (Doesn't Munster sometimes also have [p]?)

vijayjohn wrote:In this book, they have eclipsis after both of those. I think? :? Because one of the examples in the book is Tá sé cúpla ciliméadar ón mBóthar Buí, and their answer key for sentence 4 in Exercise 9 says Tá sé gar don mbunscoil. But then another one of their example sentences is Tá sé gar don chéibh nua, which is lenition, not eclipsis, right??

I don't have the book here, but yes, if that's what it says, that looks inconsistent.

I'm so confused! You know what this means, right? I should've listened to księżycowy ages ago, burned this damn book in a fire, and joined the rest of y'all down in Munster. :lol:

Well, in fact, if mutations after prepostion + article confuse you, the only sane way out is Ulster. It uses a proper dative article for all of them, so it consistently lenites. :D

In the south, they have those silly remnants of an accusative article that causes eclipsis after prepositions (but obviously not for direct objects, because that would be what an accusative case is really meant for), but they couldn't even agree which prepositions should be generalised to use which case, so it's all just a mess. And the dentals rule applied to eclipsis in this one special case, which is pure nonsense.

(To add something a bit more constructive, here's a table of mutations after preposition + article for different dialects.)

vijayjohn wrote:Okay, it's everybody else that's weird, and their answer key is still fucked up! :twisted:

Well, to be fair, both Munster and Connacht are reasonably weird, and the answer key seems to be fucked up. :P

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby linguoboy » 2018-07-03, 16:12

kevin wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:(And IIRC the f in féin is actually pronounced [f] in Munster and maybe Ulster).

It's [h] in Ulster, as it should be. (Doesn't Munster sometimes also have [p]?)

Not as far as I know, but I'm not very familiar with the speech of the Gaeltacht na nDéise.

kevin wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:In this book, they have eclipsis after both of those. I think? :? Because one of the examples in the book is Tá sé cúpla ciliméadar ón mBóthar Buí, and their answer key for sentence 4 in Exercise 9 says Tá sé gar don mbunscoil. But then another one of their example sentences is Tá sé gar don chéibh nua, which is lenition, not eclipsis, right??

I don't have the book here, but yes, if that's what it says, that looks inconsistent.

Like I said, don mbunscoil is typical of Kerry whereas don chéibh nua would be found in the rest of Munster as well as CO.

Eclipsis after ón is typical of Munster. I think what threw me is the notion that there could be a variety with eclipsis after both ón and sa. Maybe in the transitional area between Munster and Connacht (i.e. Clare or na hÁrainneacha)?
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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby kevin » 2018-07-03, 20:33

The book claims to be based on the dialect of Cois Fharraige. So I do expect eclipsis after "sa", but lenition after "don" and "ón".

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby kevin » 2018-07-03, 22:07

I think we answered most of the questions already, but those two are left:

vijayjohn wrote:1. Tá sé cúpla ciliméadar ón dTrá Bháin [isn't it "Bháin" instead of "Bhán"?]

Both exist, in different places. :) But the one they asked for is "Trá Bháin".

2. An bhfuil áiseanna maithe sa Spidéal? Tá, tá bláthadóir, búistéara [the answer key says "búistéir"??], gruagaire, ionad sláinte, leabharlann, siopaí, scoileanna, oifig an phoist, séipéal, stáisiún peitril, agus cógaslann sa Spidéal.

"búistéir" is the standard nominative. "búistéara" is generally genitive, but the dialect of Cois Fharraige seems to use it for the nominative, too.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-04, 4:02

Go raibh maith agaibh! :)

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-05, 3:16

Wait, so now what do we do? Is Unit 3 now due on Tuesday, July 10? And:
księżycowy wrote:Here is the first dialogue rewritten into Munster (as best as I can; I imagine Linguoboy will help where needed) for those that are interested [...] I'll post any differences in the grammar and exercises tomorrow (at least partially :P ). Dialogue two as well.

Is this still happening?

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-07-05, 9:35

Hopefully? :P

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby Antea » 2018-07-06, 14:37

I have to resume with the lessons, because I stopped last week, and apart from watching again some episodes of “Outlander”, I haven’t done much :roll:

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby silmeth » 2018-07-06, 21:56

kevin wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:(And IIRC the f in féin is actually pronounced [f] in Munster and maybe Ulster).

It's [h] in Ulster, as it should be. (Doesn't Munster sometimes also have [p]?)


And that’s why it should be written *shéin in the whole Gaeldom except perhaps for Munster where it should stay féin – it comes from PIE *swé- (through some Proto-Celtic *swe-sin-) and cognates with English self and Polish się goddammit. *shéin would make more sense both phonologically and etymologically… The fact that /s/ coming from /sw/ lenited to /f/ (except for when in some dialects it lenited to /h/ like all other /s/s) really confused those Old Irish monks and their writing system. :P

kevin wrote:Well, in fact, if mutations after prepostion + article confuse you, the only sane way out is Ulster. It uses a proper dative article for all of them, so it consistently lenites. :D

And yet it uses this dative article consistently with nominative-accusative nouns. :(

In some modern(ish) Munster texts you at least can find fé chosaibh, leis na fearaibh, ag ceannaigh, ag báistigh

kevin wrote:In the south, they have those silly remnants of an accusative article that causes eclipsis after prepositions (but obviously not for direct objects, because that would be what an accusative case is really meant for)


What surprised me when learning and reading about the history of the language: Céitinn – as late as 17th century – a few times actually used eclipsis for direct object: … ⁊ go mbíodh ag fásgadh ar a bhrághaid go mbeireadh an mbreith gcóir. When I started learning about the loss of case system in Irish, and merging of accusative and nominative, I believed the initial mutations in direct objects were long forgotten by then.

kevin wrote:but they couldn't even agree which prepositions should be generalised to use which case, so it's all just a mess.

Which makes me do basically what Cork does according to German GnaG table – eclipse basically after every preposition+article except for sa/san/ins an, den and don – three exceptions aren’t that bad. But true, leniting everything the Ulster/Scottish way is much more consistent. ;-)

Oops, sorry for making a lengthy off-topic. :oops:
polszczyzna jest moją mową ojczystą (pl), Is Gaelainn na Mumhan atá á foghlaim agam (ga) ((ga-M)), mám, myslím, dobrou znalost češtiny, rozumím a něco mluvím (cs), Jeg lærer meg bokmål på Duolingo (no-nb) (og eg ville lære nynorsk ein gong (no-nn))

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby kevin » 2018-07-07, 12:05

I appreciate the lengthy off-topic, which I wouldn't even consider off-topic, it's just interesting background information. I didn't know that eclipsis for the direct object was still in use in the 17th century!

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby Antea » 2018-07-09, 7:11

So, I wanted to write an Irish saying in my profile, and I found this one: “Bíonn siúlach scéalach” that, according to the given translation, means something like “travellers have tales to tale” meaning that “travels broad the mind”.

But I still don’t have the level to verify if that’s correct, and I used some translators who give different translations to these words. If you already have some level of the language, how would you grammatically translate these three words?

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby silmeth » 2018-07-09, 9:16

The translation ‘travellers have tales to tell’ is given in the FGB, so I’d believe it. :)

Very literally, word-by-word, using Hiberno-English words, it means does-be walking news-bearing.

bíonn – habitual present of , ‘does be’, ‘is habitually, typically, in general, not necessarily at the very exact moment’. Habitual present tense is often used to describe general, usual conditions, compare eg. another proverb bíonn adharca fada ar na buaibh thar lear, lit. ‘the cows overseas have long horns’, meaning ‘the grass is always greener on the other side’.

siúlach – adjective from the verb siúil ‘to walk’ – ‘walking, strolling’, judging from FGB’s usage example: is siúlach an duine é, ‘he travels a lot’ I’d guess it might just be used as a noun to describe a traveller. But I am not really sure if something like *an siúlach seo ‘this traveller’ – using this word really as a noun – would be possible, probably not.

scéalach – adjective from the noun scéal ‘story’, translated in FGB as ‘news-bearing, gossiping’.

So if I were to translate it literally into English, I’d go with ‘a traveller is (usually, always) news-bearing’.

EDIT: oops, I just realized I’ve written ‘Hiberno-Irish’ before… Yeah, well, that’s not what I meant. :P
Last edited by silmeth on 2018-07-09, 17:02, edited 1 time in total.
polszczyzna jest moją mową ojczystą (pl), Is Gaelainn na Mumhan atá á foghlaim agam (ga) ((ga-M)), mám, myslím, dobrou znalost češtiny, rozumím a něco mluvím (cs), Jeg lærer meg bokmål på Duolingo (no-nb) (og eg ville lære nynorsk ein gong (no-nn))

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby Antea » 2018-07-09, 10:29

silmeth wrote:So if I were to translate it literally into English, I’d go with ‘a traveller is (usually, always) news-bearing’.


Thanks for the explanation! :D

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby linguoboy » 2018-07-09, 14:24

silmeth wrote:siúlach – adjective from the verb siúil ‘to walk’ – ‘walking, strolling’, judging from FGB’s usage example: is siúlach an duine é, ‘he travels a lot’ I’d guess it might just be used as a noun to describe a traveller. But I am not really sure if something like *an siúlach seo ‘this traveller’ – using this word really as a noun – would be possible, probably not.

I've never seen it substantivised like that, only with a modified noun, e.g. "Fear siúlach a bhí in Mike Flaherty." (Rónán Mac Con Iomaire); "Nuair ba phobal fáin é an cine daonna ar fad, bhí an duine siúlach ina shaoirse féin." (Irish Times).

Cf. fear siúil ("man of-walking") "hobo, tramp". Note that there is an ethnic group in Ireland known in English as "Travellers" and in Irish as an Lucht Siúil. Perhaps because of the negative connotations of fear siuil etc., the preferred singular form is now fear den Lucht Siúil or duine den Lucht Siúil.
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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby Antea » 2018-07-09, 14:50

linguoboy wrote:I've never seen it substantivised like that, only with a modified noun, e.g. "Fear siúlach a bhí in Mike Flaherty." (Rónán Mac Con Iomaire); "Nuair ba phobal fáin é an cine daonna ar fad, bhí an duine siúlach ina shaoirse féin." (Irish Times).

Cf. fear siúil ("man of-walking") "hobo, tramp". Note that there is an ethnic group in Ireland known in English as "Travellers" and in Irish as an Lucht Siúil. Perhaps because of the negative connotations of fear siuil etc., the preferred singular form is now fear den Lucht Siúil or duine den Lucht Siúil.


Thanks a lot! It’s fascinating and it really seems so different to any other language I’ve learned before. I have to get used to the grammar. I hope I will stick to it enough time, to reach some level :yep:

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-09, 23:15

Okay, it's almost Tuesday anyway, so I'm not even bothering to use spoil tags this time. :)

Exercise 1

1. Tá Máire pósta.
2. Tá Máirtín singil.
3. Is baintreach fir é Cathal.
4. Tá Áine pósta.
5. Tá Pádhraic singil (but the answer key says "pósta" wtf fucking answer key?!).
6. Tá Caitríona scartha.

Exercise 2

PÓL: An bhfuil páistí agat, a Thomáis?
TOMÁS: Tá, tá páistí agam. Agus féin?
PÓL: Níl, níl páistí agam.
PEIG: An bhfuil clann agaibh, a Ghráinne agus a Sheosaimh?
GRÁINNE: Níl clann againn fós. Tá muid ag súil le páiste.
PEIG: Bail ó Dhia oraibh!

Exercise 3

1. teaghlach
2. clann
3. babaí
4. páiste
5. naíonán
6. baibín
7. gasúr
8. leanbh
9. leanbán

Exercise 4

1. Cén uimhir fóin atá agat?
2. Céard atá agaibh?
3. Tá beirt agam anseo.
4. Cén seoladh atá agaibh?
5. Tá seoladh nua agat.
6. Tá deirfiúr agam.
7. Cé mhéad páiste atá agaibh?
8. Tá deartháir amháin agam.

Exercise 5
(oh boy, I have a bad feeling about this one...I don't do well with languages with multiple copula forms, at least initially :doggy: )

1. Bíonn clár ceoil ag Gráinne Ní Dhomhnaill ar Raidió na Gaeltachta.
2. Bíonn amhráin de gach uile shórt ar chlár Ghráinne.
3. Is as Conamara í Gráinne.
4. Bíonn clár Ghráinne ar an aer gach maidin ag leathuair tar éis a sé.
5. Bíonn Tá (see? Told you I wouldn't get it!) sé le fáil ar an raidió in Éirinn agus ar an Idirlíon ar fud an domhain.
6. Bíonn ceol agus an nuacht ar gach clár.
7. Bíonn Gráinne i gcónaí ag caint faoin aimsir in Éirinn.

Exercise 6

1. ocht -> ochtar
2. naoi -> naonúr
3. cúig -> cúigear
4. seacht -> seachtar
5. ceithre -> ceathrar
6. sé -> seisear

Exercise 7

1. Máire: Cé mhéad páiste atá agat?
2. Áine: Páiste amháin.
3. Máire: Cén t-aimn atá air?
4. Áine: Séamas atá air.
5. Seán: mhéad páiste atá agaibh?
6. Niall agus Fionnuala: Tá beirt againn.
7. Seán: Cén t-aimn atá orthu?
8. Fionnuala: Aoife atá ar ár n-iníon agus Ciarán atá ar ár mac.

Exercise 8

1. Cé mhéad deartháir atá agat? - Ceathrar
2. Cé mhéad deairfiúr atá agat? - Béirt
3. Cé mhéad deartháir is deairfiúr atá agat? - Cúigear

Exercise 9

1. Seo í m'iníon Ciara.
2. An bhfuil aithne agat ar mo dheartháir?
3. Seo é mo mhac Eoin.
4. An bhfuil aithne agat ar mo dheairfiúr? Ohmigod I keep misspelling 'brother' in this language!!
5. Seo iad mo thuismitheoirí.

Exercise 10

1. bean chéile - wife
2. mac - son
3. tuismitheoirí - parents
4. deartháir - brother
5. máthair - mother
6. fear céile - husband
7. deirfiúr - sister
8. iníon - daughter
9. athair - father

Exercise 11

1. Cén t-ainm atá ort? (Céad ainm agus sloinne)
Vijay John

2. Gnéas Fireann Baineann

3. Cén náisiúntacht atá agat? (Má tá níos mó ná náisiúntacht amháin agat, luaigh gach ceann diobh.)
Éireannach
Náisiúntacht éile, sonraigh
Meiriceánach

Gan aon náisiúntacht

4. Céard é do stádas pósta reatha? (Freagair má tá tú 15 bliana d'aois nó níos sine)
[X] i mbosca amháin

Singil (níor phós riamh)
Pósta (an chéad phósadh)
Athphósta (i ndiaidh Baintreachais)
Athphósta (i ndiaidh Colscartha/Neamhnithe)
Idirscartha
Colscartha
Baintreach

5. Cé mhéad páistí atá agat?
Duine ar bith

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-07-09, 23:27

What lesson are you guys on this week? I'd like to try catching up. (Kinda :P )

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-09, 23:28

księżycowy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Wait, so now what do we do? Is Unit 3 now due on Tuesday, July 10? And:
księżycowy wrote:Here is the first dialogue rewritten into Munster (as best as I can; I imagine Linguoboy will help where needed) for those that are interested [...] I'll post any differences in the grammar and exercises[/b] tomorrow (at least partially :P ). Dialogue two as well.

Is this still happening?

Hopefully? :P

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-07-09, 23:31

Trying to guilt me into continuing my Munster translations? :P

Unit 3? Ok.


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