Irish Study Group

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2019-02-09, 20:03

Hey Vijay, I'm asking the following for a few different reasons, but I'm thinking I don't want to continue with Colloquial Irish. At least not as a starting text. I could easily see it as either a companion text, or (more likely) follow up text. I just happen to ber thinging that that I was quite successful with a more grammar driven approach, rather than a more "fill in the blank" approach. Plus there's the errors and such. Not that those are insurmountable, but they are a bit irritating.

Are you ok with switching texts? Or, more broadly, what do you think?

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-02-10, 6:05

I think all of these sound like pretty minor issues, and if you let them stand in your way, you'll never actually get through a textbook.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2019-02-10, 10:10

Maybe to you they're minor issues.

The point isn't simply to just get through a textbook, it's to effectively learn the language. And, for the record, I'm not saying we should go to TYI, if that's a concern. I'd be just as happy going through Learning Irish.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-02-10, 19:13

księżycowy wrote:The point isn't simply to just get through a textbook, it's to effectively learn the language.

I know, but you're not going to do either if you keep just switching textbooks every few lessons. First you said you wanted to take a more conversational approach and therefore do Colloquial, now you're saying you want to take a more grammatical approach. But you can't possibly know for sure which approach actually works better for you without really trying both of them. A conversational approach tends to work better for me, but the reason why I know that is precisely because I have pursued a grammatical approach before, too - all the way to the end of the book. And even then that doesn't mean I'd never pursue a grammatical approach again; sometimes, the only materials I have focus on grammar anyway, so then of course I have to use them even if it isn't ideal for me personally.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2019-02-10, 19:21

I'm actually saying that I want to switch precisely because I did so well with the more grammatical approach of TYI. I forget what exact lesson I made it too, but it was a good way into the textbook.

I like First Year Polish, for example, precisely because it has a good balance between conversational stuff and grammar. There is a clear correlation between the dialogue and the grammar presented. You can also take the grammar and see how things work together. I feel that either TYI or LI would be closer to this type of approach for me. Thus being more ideal. For me at least.

I'm not trying to say you have to stop using Colloquial, I just know what works for me.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-02-10, 19:25

księżycowy wrote:I'm actually saying that I want to switch precisely because I did so well with the more grammatical approach of TYI. I forget what exact lesson I made it too, but it was a good way into the textbook.

Then why did you switch from it?

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2019-02-10, 19:30

Well, I'm not sure I remember exactly now, but I think it was around the time I was trying to get things trimmed down as far as what I was learning actively. Or maybe it was when I was switching over to focusing on German or something.

.......

I don't think I really do remember. :hmm:

All I can clearly remember is this time I was trying to be nice and was willing to give Colloquial Irish another try because you where willing to restart this study group with me. If that makes any sense.....

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-02-10, 19:39

Well, since you don't remember, I went back and looked at what you actually said at the time.

I know that FYP has been working out well for you and focuses a bit more on grammar than Colloquial does, and it's great that that's been going well for you, but notice that it still has dialogues. Plus you also use Begegnungen for German, which has also been working well for you and doesn't seem all that grammar-focused, either. TYI does not have any dialogues, only translation exercises (pretty much), which was precisely one of your complaints about it at the time. You said you really wanted "a textbook (with audio!) that has dialogues and texts and what not. Not just exercise sentences. I had thought to off set that weakness in TYI by using the texts on the Cork Irish site that have audio, and digesting passages of what ever text I pick first. (Plus I have Séadna in hardcopy, with audio)."

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2019-02-10, 20:05

Begegnungen (and German) is an odd-ball. Plus I also have the A- and B-Grammatik books, which are nothing but grammar (with exercises). :P

And I think I have enough resources to completely offset the issues I have with TYI. I would like a textbook with more than just exercise sentences, but I have readers (with audio) and texts galore (with audio).

But, before we get ahead of ourselves, I did say I had no problem going through Learning Irish by Ó Siadhail instead of TYI. Either way, I'm switching over to one of them. Sorry Vijay.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-02-10, 21:01

I don't understand why you seem to think this has anything to do with me. I am fine with doing anything. I'll do Colloquial, I'll do TYI (in fact I already did both with you!), I'll do Learning Irish (I even have Learning Irish in print and did start going through it once years ago), I'll do a random grammar, I'll even just pick sentences out of a linguistics paper, whatever you want. That's not the point. It all depends on what you want because you're the one who really wants to learn Irish. This is all about you and what you will stick with.

It's not like you lacked these resources when you went through TYI. So why didn't you use them? You really need to think about what stopped you from going down roughly the same path that you say you want to pursue now or else you'll just regret it and want to switch back all over again in another month or so.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2019-02-10, 21:10

Well, since you say it's about me (I tend to think of this more as us, since you are participating, regardless of your wanting to really learn it or not), I guess we'll start doing TYI again. And this time I'm going to really start using all of my resources. Starting with the short stories I have (with audio).

I'll see if I can figure out what stopped my, in the meantime. I made it so far, and yet what was it that threw that off? :hmm:

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-02-10, 21:15

Do that before you start going with TYI again or else you'll stop doing it anyway.

I don't even understand your point about the connection between the texts and the grammar. Colloquial also teaches grammar, and that grammar is connected with the dialogues. They just don't really do translation exercises and include more cultural information (as well as the occasional tidbit of information about dialect differences). EDIT: And the exercises are spread out throughout the lesson instead of all coming at the end.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2019-02-10, 21:42

I'm not going to get into an internet fight with you, Vijay.

EDIT: And, no. I'm not saying you're gunning for a fight with me. I just see this going in an unproductive path if we're not careful.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby kevin » 2019-02-10, 21:48

How about you just regularise what you've been doing lately and switch the book weekly? First week Colloquial, second week TYI, third week Buntús na Gaeilge, fourth week Learning Irish, fifth week Now You're Talking, sixth week... :P

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-02-10, 22:04

I could be wrong, but that sounds to me like it runs the risk of both being confusing and running over the same material again and again.
księżycowy wrote:I'm not going to get into an internet fight with you, Vijay.

EDIT: And, no. I'm not saying you're gunning for a fight with me. I just see this going in an unproductive path if we're not careful.

I'm not trying to get into an Internet fight with you, and I'm sorry for sounding so harsh with you and probably should be less annoyed by the fact that you're talking about switching resources again especially since I'm genuinely interested in why you're choosing to do this. But I've been trying really hard to help you with learning various languages you're interested in, and now it sounds like you're just being stubborn all of a sudden for no clear reason despite not knowing any language other than English all that well yet, in which case I don't see why I should bother helping you with any of your languages, possibly even German or Polish.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2019-02-10, 22:11

It was the study group that initially knocked me off from using TYI!

viewtopic.php?f=126&t=30031&start=460#p1110995

viewtopic.php?f=126&t=53874#p1111681

I think it was just too much to try to keep up with Munster and learn Connacht on top of it. Plus, if memory serves me correctly, that was before I started to get serious about German and Polish, and fixing my wanderlusts must have stopped me completely for a time.

I'm not trying to get into an Internet fight with you, and I'm sorry for sounding so harsh with you and probably should be less annoyed by the fact that you're talking about switching resources again especially since I'm genuinely interested in why you're choosing to do this. But I've been trying really hard to help you with learning various languages you're interested in, and now it sounds like you're just being stubborn all of a sudden for no clear reason despite not knowing any language other than English all that well yet, in which case I don't see why I should bother helping you with any of your languages, possibly even German or Polish.


Well, I am stubborn. :P

But I'm not trying to piss you off. Nor did I intend to make it sound like Colloquial Irish doesn't teach grammar. It's just the presentation of grammar and vocabulary I guess.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-02-10, 22:28

Okay, I'm really confused right now, so I think I better at least take a break from this group at least until I can figure out wtf you're talking about. :lol:

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby kevin » 2019-02-10, 22:37

vijayjohn wrote:I could be wrong, but that sounds to me like it runs the risk of both being confusing and running over the same material again and again.

I wasn't serious, but it's essentially what this group is already looking like to me. I don't see how you (generic you) could ever make any menaingful progress if you keep switching resources and then always start reviewing them from the beginning instead of progressing to new things.

I mean, I'm still not convinced of textbooks anyway, but I don't want to contribute to the mess by suggesting to do something entirely different. ;)

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2019-02-10, 22:53

vijayjohn wrote:Okay, I'm really confused right now, so I think I better at least take a break from this group at least until I can figure out wtf you're talking about. :lol:

Agreed, let's take a break and figure things out. :)

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-02-10, 22:55

Thanks!

I might have to exchange a few PMs with you before I actually make sense of it all. I hope you don't mind if I end up doing that. :P


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