Irish Study Group

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-06-23, 12:12

Honestly, I'm learning Irish from barely more than scratch myself, and through Wiktionary, you can in fact just look up thugann (which is probably exactly what I did since I have no idea how verb derivation works in this language yet):

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/thugann

Which of course would bring you here:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tugann#Irish

Which in turn, of course, would bring you to:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tabhair#Irish

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-06-23, 13:16

I honestly forgot that the infinitive of thugann was tabhair (I tried looking it up under 'tug' in the glossary), but I looked it up on teanglann.ie and it shows "could be a form of tabhair" at the top of the search results.

But all of this proves my point.

You absolutely love Wiktionary, don't you Vijay? :P

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby Antea » 2018-06-23, 17:40

What was the schedule, anyway? On Monday we have to be at which lesson of the book?

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby kevin » 2018-06-23, 17:54

vijayjohn wrote:Like, this is so lazy, and there's so much wrong with it, but it's still tempting. :P

And you didn't even mention vowels in the spelling yet, which were what confused me most when I started. Things only start to make sense when you understand that written vowels are often not meant to be pronounced, but just to indicate that the consonant next to them is broad or slender. Then the only challenge left is learning which of the vowels in a digraph or trigraph is the one that is supposed to be pronounced.

księżycowy wrote:I mean, you have to know to look up "tabhair" instead of "thugann".

I wouldn't think irregular verbs are related to understanding the orthography, though.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-06-23, 17:58

Antea wrote:What was the schedule, anyway? On Monday we have to be at which lesson of the book?


It's Tuesday, and the assignment is to finish Unit 1. When in doubt of the assignment or due date, check my first post in this thread. :)


kevin wrote:I wouldn't think irregular verbs are related to understanding the orthography, though.

I don't recall saying it did. :hmm:

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby kevin » 2018-06-23, 19:01

Oops, I thought you were replying to Vijay's attempt at making the orthography seem easier than it is. Maybe I should have looked at the exercise you mentioned before replying...

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-06-24, 3:04

księżycowy wrote:You absolutely love Wiktionary, don't you Vijay? :P

Nah, it's just a convenient resource. I didn't really know about teanglann.ie until now.
kevin wrote:And you didn't even mention vowels in the spelling yet, which were what confused me most when I started.

Oh yeah, sorry, I completely forgot to talk about the vowels! But...
Things only start to make sense when you understand that written vowels are often not meant to be pronounced, but just to indicate that the consonant next to them is broad or slender. Then the only challenge left is learning which of the vowels in a digraph or trigraph is the one that is supposed to be pronounced.

Now you've basically done it for me. :silly:
księżycowy wrote:
Antea wrote:What was the schedule, anyway? On Monday we have to be at which lesson of the book?


It's Tuesday, and the assignment is to finish Unit 1. When in doubt of the assignment or due date, check my first post in this thread. :)

I just said this in another thread, but I wonder whether it might be possible to have us each work through these things at our own pace so that no one has to feel left behind. :)

That being said, is it okay if we finish doing exercises or whatever ahead of schedule and post them here (but with spoiler tags so no one will accidentally see them in advance)?

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-06-24, 3:52

Yes. I've always said that people don't need to feel like they have to catch up or can't go ahead. I also think it's helpful to have something to shoot for though, hence the "assignments."

And you can report in anytime, I suppose. I like the idea of spoiler/spoil tags for early reports.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby linguoboy » 2018-06-24, 11:26

księżycowy wrote:I honestly forgot that the infinitive of thugann was tabhair

Tabhair isn't an "infinitive"--Irish doesn't have them--it's simply the citation form. It actually corresponds to the 2s imperative (which generally reflects the bare form of the stem). Older works (e.g. the original TYI) use the 1s.PRS, which was historically the convention for Latin verbs.
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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-06-24, 12:08

Right, citation form. I got tripped up on terminology.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-06-24, 21:34

linguoboy wrote:Older works (e.g. the original TYI) use the 1s.PRS, which was historically the convention for Latin verbs.

I'm pretty sure you've said this before, probably even citing that specific example, yet I forgot and was slightly surprised now that I know I have access to that TYI. I looked inside it and checked, and yep, there it is.

Anyway, I thought I'd go ahead and try to do the exercises for Unit 1 but skipped exercises 5 and 6 because they both look trivial to me:
► Show Spoiler

I totally cheated by going back over and over again and looking at the lesson material, though. :P Which is just as well, I guess, especially since I'm not studying Irish that seriously yet.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby kevin » 2018-06-24, 22:24

► Show Spoiler


So far the only non-standard thing seems to be dhuit/dhaoibh instead of duit/daoibh, so probably not worth my time rewriting the answers for comparison.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-06-24, 22:52

Here is the first dialogue rewritten into Munster (as best as I can; I imagine Linguoboy will help where needed) for those that are interested:

► Show Spoiler


I'll post any differences in the grammar and exercises tomorrow (at least partially :P ). Dialogue two as well.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-06-25, 0:22

I should've known better than to try to write my age out in Irish so early. :lol: Well, at least I made myself ten years younger in Irish words! :hmpf: And yes, I was really confused by the whole cuir/cuid thing, though at least I think I understand what the sentence meant.

Is the first consonant in d'aois pronounced [g] in Munster and/or Ulster, too? I noticed that in the recording, so I'm guessing that is how it's pronounced at least in Cois Fharraige.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-06-25, 0:51

vijayjohn wrote:Is the first consonant in d'aois pronounced [g] in Munster and/or Ulster, too? I noticed that in the recording, so I'm guessing that is how it's pronounced at least in Cois Fharraige.

I was surprised to hear that the first time or two. (Well, actually, I found more than just that surprising, but anyway... :P ). My instinct would be that that would be pronounced [d] in Munster, but I'll wait for linguoboy to confirm or deny.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-06-25, 3:28

So are you also learning about prepositions in Munster Irish while we're doing all this?

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby kevin » 2018-06-25, 7:49

księżycowy wrote:Tomás: Is me Tomás, agus cad is ainm duit?

Are you sure that Munster would say "Is mé" there? It feels very unusual to me, I'd always say "Is mise". Or, of course, you can echo the question and say "Tomás is ainm dom".

Máire: Cad thú é an t-aos thú?

Interesting construction, I didn't know this one before.

vijayjohn wrote:And yes, I was really confused by the whole cuir/cuid thing, though at least I think I understand what the sentence meant.

"cuir" is the verb "to put", "cuid" is "part" or "share". So the sentence literally means "Put on you your share of clothes." I'm actually surprised they use it so early, but after possessive pronouns, you have to use this "cuid" before plural and uncountable nouns (to varying degrees, depending on the dialect). The meaning is simply "Put on your clothes."

Is the first consonant in d'aois pronounced [g] in Munster and/or Ulster, too? I noticed that in the recording, so I'm guessing that is how it's pronounced at least in Cois Fharraige.

No, pronouncing "de" (and "do" as well) as [gə] is a Connacht thing. It's [də] in most other places.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-06-25, 9:30

kevin wrote:Are you sure that Munster would say "Is mé" there? It feels very unusual to me, I'd always say "Is mise". Or, of course, you can echo the question and say "Tomás is ainm dom".

Not as sure as I'd like to be. :P
I was trying to draw a contrast between Tomás' line and Máire's line and hadn't thought of the alternative you suggested, which is probably a better fit.

Máire: Cad thú é an t-aos thú?

Interesting construction, I didn't know this one before.

All the more interesting to me because you switched a pronoun. :hmm:

vijayjohn wrote:So are you also learning about prepositions in Munster Irish while we're doing all this?

I've already learned the basic prepositions and I've been learning the prepositional pronouns as of late.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby kevin » 2018-06-25, 10:40

księżycowy wrote:
Máire: Cad thú é an t-aos thú?

Interesting construction, I didn't know this one before.

All the more interesting to me because you switched a pronoun. :hmm:

Twice "thú" felt very unlikely, so I searched the net for it, and this is what I got for the Munster version (they also say it's what TYI teaches, though I don't have it on this computer, so I couldn't confirm).

The "é" refers to "an t-aos", I would say. It looks like this construction (German GnaG), which unfortunately doesn't seem to be explained in the English version of GnaG.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-06-25, 10:51

That makes sense. I guess I'm just used to the double é, í, and iad in copula constructions that I just followed suit here. :lol:


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