Irish Study Group

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[vijayjohn]

Cá huair a dhéanfaidh sibh an chéad ceacht eile?

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[Yasna]

Can someone tell me if this guy's Irish pronunciation is good enough to use him as a learning resource? I'm being cautious based on all the tales I've heard of bad Irish out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KePLTQvDbGU

[kevin]

I've heard worse Irish, though it's certainly not the most traditional pronunciation.

In particular, I couldn't hear a broad/slender difference at least in his r (a common problem when people just use the English r for both) and his d (I'm not that familiar with Munster Irish, and I know that non-palatalised slender d is a thing there, but it should still sound different from broad d).

My recommendation would be to use teaching material that was actually recorded by native speakers rather than random Youtube videos. If you prefer videos to just a textbook with audio, I'd recommend Now You're Talking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nz--Lp ... e=emb_logo (just the videos on Youtube)
https://eolas38.wixsite.com/ultach/copy-of-aonad-1 (videos with accompanying text book lessons)

If you don't need videos, there are more good options, also for different dialects (this one focuses on Ulster).

[linguoboy]

I've heard worse Irish, though it's certainly not the most traditional pronunciation.

That's a very generous way to phrase it.

In particular, I couldn't hear a broad/slender difference at least in his r (a common problem when people just use the English r for both) and his d (I'm not that familiar with Munster Irish, and I know that non-palatalised slender d is a thing there, but it should still sound different from broad d).

Was he aiming for Munster Irish? I heard him use final stress on agam and a few other words, but not at all systematically. And I didn't hear any diphthongisation before tense sonorants (which he pronounced identical to their lax counterparts in any case) no breaking of éa.

Overall, it sounded pretty typical of the kind of anglicised dialectal blend you hear from L2 speakers who had teachers from all around Ireland in their school years (although with some particularly odd features, such as pronouncing the /g/ in ag in all positions even though every traditional speaker I've heard elides this before verb-nouns beginning with a consonant). Probably fine for learning some vocab, but it you're aiming for native-like pronunciation, I would not take his as a model.

(If you're curious what native Munster Irish sounds like, here's an interview with members of the Ó Súilleabháin family of sean-nós singers. They're all native speakers of the West Muskerry variety, which is what the old TY Irish teaches and my chosen variety.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz2SauVFkSc)

My recommendation would be to use teaching material that was actually recorded by native speakers rather than random Youtube videos.

Seconded. It's a pricey proposition now, being out of the print, but the work Speaking Irish: an Ghaeilge bheo was one of the single best resources I've found because it not only includes videos of speakers of all contemporary varieties of native Irish but full transcripts of their speech with grammar and usage notes. Hopefully there's something similar currently available.

[kevin]

That's a very generous way to phrase it.

I mean, it always depends on the standards you apply. It's far from traditional native speech, but then consistently distinguishing /x/ from /k/ is already enough to automatically place you at least somewhere in the top half of Youtube Irish speakers...

Was he aiming for Munster Irish?

I think he said something like mostly Munster with a little Connacht in it. Which I guess already tells you that he's not really aiming for a specific traditional dialect.

I heard him use final stress on agam and a few other words, but not at all systematically. And I didn't hear any diphthongisation before tense sonorants (which he pronounced identical to their lax counterparts in any case) no breaking of éa.

Ah, yes. I hoped you would say something because I know these features in theory and if I heard them, I would associate them with Munster dialects, but I don't automatically notice if they are missing.

although with some particularly odd features, such as pronouncing the /g/ in ag in all positions even though every traditional speaker I've heard elides this before verb-nouns beginning with a consonant

Isn't this very typical for L2 learners? Same for "an".

[Saim]

I mean, it always depends on the standards you apply. It's far from traditional native speech, but then consistently distinguishing /x/ from /k/ is already enough to automatically place you at least somewhere in the top half of Youtube Irish speakers...

There are people broadcasting the fact that they speak Irish who put that little work into pronunciation?

[vijayjohn]

I mean, it always depends on the standards you apply. It's far from traditional native speech, but then consistently distinguishing /x/ from /k/ is already enough to automatically place you at least somewhere in the top half of Youtube Irish speakers...

There are people broadcasting the fact that they speak Irish who put that little work into pronunciation?

Yeah, because you're lucky if you can find Irish-language content at all in many domains. I think some Irish may even argue that this is just another accent of Irish, or something, which I don't really buy.

This whole discussion has been reminding me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9ssgmqW83g
This is perhaps the only live performance of a rock song in Irish I've ever seen apart from songs that were just translated straight from English. I'm not sure this band has ever done another song in Irish. The whole clip is in Irish, yet they sing e.g. cuala instead of chuala (with /k/ instead of /x/), and no one says a word about their pronunciation or anything.

[kevin]

There are people broadcasting the fact that they speak Irish who put that little work into pronunciation?

Tells you something about how overwhelming the majority of L2 speakers with bad pronunciation is compared to native speakers or learners with good pronunciation.

I'm not even sure if they can be blamed, they might not even be aware of the problem. This is how many schools teach Irish, because the teachers don't have good pronunciation either. I know some students with good Irish who say that at school they revert to an anglicised form of the language, both so that they are actually understood and because they don't want to stand out.

[Yasna]

Thanks for the analysis guys. I was hoping to casually gain some familiarity with Irish and pick up a few words and phrases (short, chatty Youtube videos are my favorite option for those purposes), but "far from traditional native speech" doesn't sound very enticing.

[linguoboy]

Honestly, you’re more likely to encounter non-traditional Irish both online and IRL and it’s easier for Anglophones to comprehend anyway.

[Eireannach]

Honestly, you’re more likely to encounter non-traditional Irish both online and IRL and it’s easier for Anglophones to comprehend anyway.

Most definitely, even in the Gaeltacht's, you can see some English influence. I believe up until the end of the 20th century in the Aran Islands, the elders were monolinguistic in Irish so I imagine that would be the purest type.

[linguoboy]

Honestly, you’re more likely to encounter non-traditional Irish both online and IRL and it’s easier for Anglophones to comprehend anyway.

Most definitely, even in the Gaeltacht's, you can see some English influence. I believe up until the end of the 20th century in the Aran Islands, the elders were monolinguistic in Irish so I imagine that would be the purest type.

I'm not really interested in the Victorian Romantic obsession with finding some mythical "pure" form of the language, unpolluted by Saxon corruption. It's impossible for any language spoken in Europe today not to exhibit some English influence.

Cad as duit, a Eireannaigh? Conas tánn tú ag tabhairt faoi Gaeilge dh'fhoghlaim?

[Eireannach]

Honestly, you’re more likely to encounter non-traditional Irish both online and IRL and it’s easier for Anglophones to comprehend anyway.

Most definitely, even in the Gaeltacht's, you can see some English influence. I believe up until the end of the 20th century in the Aran Islands, the elders were monolinguistic in Irish so I imagine that would be the purest type.

I'm not really interested in the Victorian Romantic obsession with finding some mythical "pure" form of the language, unpolluted by Saxon corruption. It's impossible for any language spoken in Europe today not to exhibit some English influence.

Cad as duit, a Eireannaigh? Conas tánn tú ag tabhairt faoi Gaeilge dh'fhoghlaim?

Oh yeah for sure, languages are constantly evolving and trying to find a 'Pure' strain is always going to be impossible as that would have evolved from another language or variant of the language. English has really worked its way into so many languages, due to its use from the 1600's and onwards as the language of administration by the British empire.

For your other question, I'm London Irish but my family more recently originates from the west of Éire, with my dad's side in Luimneach and my mum's in Gaillimh. My dad's side was from the north but with the plantation of Ulster we were exiled.
I have learnt some Irish from my family, and when I make the journey over to visit my extended family I learn from them and from reading Irish on signs and asking about it. I've started to hang around here to find more resources to learn as I'm starting to teach myself online.