Ceist faoi "déag" uimhreacha sa tuiseal ginideach

Fear_a_Phléasc
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Ceist faoi "déag" uimhreacha sa tuiseal ginideach

Postby Fear_a_Phléasc » 2015-03-09, 6:51

I tried addressing this as part of another thread but it ended in disaster. So I'm distilling that aspect of the question into a new thread in hopes that I might get a productive answer to it.

In the Caighdeán, what is the correct form of the article in the genitive before "11" bunuimhreacha? That is to say is it:
1. na haon fhuinneog déag
2. an aon fhuinneog déag
3. na n-aon fhuinneog déag

I've consulted various documents including the official Caighdeán Athbhreithnithe on the subject and it is not clear in any of them, specifically relating to the article.

I'm very familiar with the basic rules of most aspects of the number system but I would love to have this specific question answered. Thanks.
Last edited by Fear_a_Phléasc on 2015-03-10, 0:45, edited 1 time in total.

An Lon Dubh
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Re: Ceist faoi "11" uimhreacha sa tuiseal ginideach

Postby An Lon Dubh » 2015-03-09, 20:31

In the Caighdeán, what is the correct form of the article in the genitive before "11" bunuimhreacha? That is to say is it:
1. na haon fhuinneog déag
2. an aon fhuinneog déag
3. na n-aon fhuinneog déag

The Caighdeán considers aon to be a masculine noun, so essentially:
an aon fhuinneog déag

The noun phrase following "aon" behaves the same way in either case (i.e. déag before adjectives, with adjectives in plural and lenited):

an t-aon fhuinneog déag mhóra
dath an aon fhuinneog déag mhóra

For any body else reading, the numbers 11-19 are sort of a special case, as for higher numbers it always breaks down to "1-10 numeral" + "constant":

aon bhó mhór is fiche = 21 big cows (one big cow and twenty)

so the question of the genitive is reduced to genitive behaviour with 1-10. For 11-19 this is not the case.

Also the forms I give above are for the Caighdeán, you are very unlikely to hear them from a native speaker or even read them, as few fluent speakers would know the Caighdeán in that detail. Asking a couple of native speakers, I got six different answers for "colour of the eleven big windows", none of them the Caighdeán one.

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Re: Ceist faoi "11" uimhreacha sa tuiseal ginideach

Postby Fear_a_Phléasc » 2015-03-09, 22:24

That makes sense. Thanks for your detailed reply. It's difficult to use Google to find examples of these in print because you can't tell it to look for genitive case obviously :P The best I was able to do was find an example of "na n-aon bhliain déag" on an Irish website, apparently treating this as any other plural genitive, which is semi consistent at least with the way that adjectives are declined after the "teens" (which is to say it's the plural lenited form - i.e. aon bhád mór vs. trí bhád mhóra.) whereas, as you say, the other non-déag compound numbers are treated as their base number plus the larger component, i.e. aon bhád mór is fiche. What you are reporting about it being "an aon fhuinneog déag" is consistent with at least one comprehensive document I found (Mechura's "Uimhreacha") which does contain some obvious errors but appears to mostly be thorough. I had doubts about it precisely because of some of the errors I found in his document though.

My confusion partially stems from the differences among sources that still appear to be attempting to adhere to the Caighdeán but still differing in treatment of the article, and also a strange assertion even in the official Caighdeán document that "de réir inscne an ainmfhocail, úsáidtear an nó na sa tuiseal ginideach roimh an mbunuimhir aon nuair nach mbíonn déag ag gabháil leis", but then going on to say "ag oscailt na haon fhuinneog déag" :hmm:

Out of curiosity, what were some of the variations reported by native speakers? To be honest, I'm often wary of these for some reasons, which sounds like a funny thing to say, considering they should be the most reliable but the issue with Irish is a bit more complex, partially because of what constitutes a native speaker. That is to say, I've seen people identify themselves as native speakers because they come from a Gaeltacht but their actual mastery of the language isn't always perfect. Also, as a native English speaker, I run into native English speakers all the time who don't know the "correct" way of saying things. The same is true of other languages and as a foreign learner I strive to learn the most "correct" version of things that I can, obviously taking into consideration what people who speak the language every day actually say. It's an imperfect analogy, obviously, but I wouldn't expect a foreign German learning English as a second language to learn things like "ain't" as standard. That said, I'm always curious to know what natives say and do attempt to mirror that. It's a tricky subject though, for sure, and it highlights some of the less-discussed complexities of learning to speak a living language.

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Re: Ceist faoi "11" uimhreacha sa tuiseal ginideach

Postby An Lon Dubh » 2015-03-15, 16:38

Fear_a_Phléasc wrote:Out of curiosity, what were some of the variations reported by native speakers?

For all but one, they used a form that is almost always used in complicated situations:

dath na n-aon chinn déag de fhuinneoga(ibh) móra

So they "avoid" the question of the genitive, there was some disagreement over "an aon" or "na n-aon".

One speaker, who is very traditional grammatically said:

na n-aon bhfuinneog ndéag mór

which is essentially the Classical Irish form.

Fear_a_Phléasc wrote:That said, I'm always curious to know what natives say and do attempt to mirror that. It's a tricky subject though, for sure, and it highlights some of the less-discussed complexities of learning to speak a living language.

It is difficult certainly, just be cautious of the fact that some elements of the Caighdeán are traditionally incorrect as well to some degree. The Caighdéan is largely Clare Irish with certain archaic elements and regularisations. Although some of these regularisations are logical, they don't correspond to any living form or any form ever used.
By the Caighdéan I mean the grammatical system set out in the document "An Caighdéan Oifigiúil", this being different from the odd "official" Irish that has grown from schools, bureaucracy and learner use.

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Re: Ceist faoi "déag" uimhreacha sa tuiseal ginideach

Postby An Lon Dubh » 2015-03-17, 12:35

Bhí ceist agat orm a linguoboy, más buan mo chuimhne, i dtaobh an fhocail "fichead", ach dheineas dearúd air, cad í an cheist aríst a mhic?

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Re: Ceist faoi "déag" uimhreacha sa tuiseal ginideach

Postby Fear_a_Phléasc » 2015-03-18, 7:18

Interesting. So the "na n-aon" is actually in use. That was the only example I could find on the internet even though I can't find any official documentation to support it. It also makes the most sense if you think about all the rules in total, in my opinion.

Yeah, but "correct" I don't necessarily mean the Caighdeán, I just mean what would be considered correct among people who actually know what the "correct" grammar is as it was spoken. In my previous analogy, I don't think even in a region of the USA where the word "ain't" is in common usage would someone who has a good knowledge of grammar say that's correct, for example.

Thanks again for your contribution.

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Re: Ceist faoi "déag" uimhreacha sa tuiseal ginideach

Postby linguoboy » 2015-03-19, 15:00

An Lon Dubh wrote:Bhí ceist agat orm a linguoboy, más buan mo chuimhne, i dtaobh an fhocail "fichead", ach dheineas dearúd air, cad í an cheist aríst a mhic?
Cad a tharla don tsnáithe eile sin? Cuma é, cuirfead athuair ort í.

Níl a fhios agam choíche cioca foirm d'"fhichid" atá le n-úsáid--ainmneach, ginideach nú túrthach. Mar a thuigim an scéal, i gcómhaith le chéile atá trí leabhar fichead, trí leabhar ar fhichid is trí leabhar is fiche. An fíor é sin? Conas a dheineann tusa rogha eatarthu?
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: Ceist faoi "déag" uimhreacha sa tuiseal ginideach

Postby An Lon Dubh » 2017-05-24, 19:43

Is ionann iad, deireann duine ceann amháin acu ar tús abairte agus an ceann eile ag deireadh na habairte céanna. Tá leagan eile ann:

trí cheann fichead de leabhra(ibh)

Ach chun na fírinne a rá, tá comhréir na n-uimhreacha bunoscionn ar fad le fada i mbéal an ghnáthdhuine. Chualas féinig i rith an tsamhraidh duine á rá "dhá n-iothlainn" agus ansan "dhá iothlainn", agus seanachaí 'sea é.


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