razlem - Gaeilge

[Ciarán12]

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/philo-celticsociety/conversations/topics/5787

Thanks! Very interesting, especially the diversity of terms even within a dialect group. I have heard versions of the standard (literary) terms in the genetive preceded by "mí", I just equated them with the same sort of thing you find in English - "May" or "the Month of May", "August" or "the Month of August" etc.

[razlem]

Ok, is this text conversation right? (My friend and I are doing the course together so we're practicing)

Dia duit! [dhuit?] Conas atá tú?
Táim go maith, agus tú?
Tá mná sa seomra liom (I am in a room with women)

Would that be the right way to write that last sentence? Or would I use "is mé i seomra leis [le?] mná"?

[Ciarán12]

Dia duit! [dhuit?] Conas atá tú?

Either "duit" or "dhuit" is fine here ("duit" is more common in writing, "dhuit" is how it is usually pronounced though)

EDIT: Fuller disscusion of this here.

Táim go maith, agus tusa?

In these sorts of sentence tags the emphatic pronouns are pretty much obligatory.

Tá mná sa seomra liom (I am in a room with women)

Would that be the right way to write that last sentence?

I think "Tá mná sa seomra liom" is fine. "Tá...liom" can mean "I have...", but I don't see any ambiguity here (even if it was read as "I have" it would render "I have women in the room", which is idiomatic here at least).

Or would I use "is mé i seomra leis [le?] mná"?

Nope. The problem with this sentence is a) you are trying to use the copula, which is used for identification statements, not when indicating physical location (c.f. "ser" and "estar" in Spanish), and b) "leis" is the third person singular of the prepositional pronoun "le", so it wouldn't be used directly with a plural noun, though this form is used when the article is inserted between them (i.e. "le mná" but "leis na mná"). And while "Tá mé i seomra le mná" is not technially breaking any specific grammatical rules, it is very awkward and unidiomatic. Your first choice was best.

[linguoboy]

Tá mná sa seomra liom (I am in a room with women)

Would that be the right way to write that last sentence?

I think "Tá mná sa seomra liom" is fine. "Tá...liom" can mean "I have...", but I don't see any ambiguity here (even if it was read as "I have" it would render "I have women in the room", which is idiomatic here at least).

I actually read this as "There are women in my room" initially, so I'd say there is ambiguity. It would probably be fine in context (seomra is definite in this sentence, so presumably it's been referred to already), but if you wanted to be totally clear you could insert in éineacht.

Or would I use "is mé i seomra leis [le?] mná"?

Nope. The problem with this sentence is a) you are trying to use the copula, which is used for identification statements, not when indicating physical location (c.f. "ser" and "estar" in Spanish)

You could use the copula for emphasis, but then you still need a locative verb:

Is mé atá sa seomra leis na mná. "It is I who is in the room with the women."

And while "Tá mé i seomra le mná" is not technially breaking any specific grammatical rules, it is very awkward and unidiomatic. Your first choice was best.

What's so "awkward and unidiomatic" about it? It simply has a different meaning: "I'm in a room with women". Cf. Tá mé i seomra le leapa shingil.

[Ciarán12]

Or would I use "is mé i seomra leis [le?] mná"?

Nope. The problem with this sentence is a) you are trying to use the copula, which is used for identification statements, not when indicating physical location (c.f. "ser" and "estar" in Spanish)

You could use the copula for emphasis, but then you still need a locative verb:

Is mé atá sa seomra leis na mná. "It is I who is in the room with the women."

Yes, but in that case the copula itself is still being used to identify (and emphasis) the one is in the room (much as the first "is" is in the English you have there).

And while "Tá mé i seomra le mná" is not technially breaking any specific grammatical rules, it is very awkward and unidiomatic. Your first choice was best.

What's so "awkward and unidiomatic" about it? It simply has a different meaning: "I'm in a room with women". Cf. Tá mé i seomra le leapa shingil.

It just does sound awkward to me. For whatever reason, the addition of an attibute to "leapa" in your sentence makes it seem less awkward. Maybe it's interference from English in a way, in that I find "I am in a room with women" strange, I would naturally add some sort of attibutive to "women", like "some women", "a few women" etc... (also seriously, what is it with you and scare quotes? You know that's one of the things that makes you seem so hostile all the time, right?)

[linguoboy]

And while "Tá mé i seomra le mná" is not technially breaking any specific grammatical rules, it is very awkward and unidiomatic. Your first choice was best.

What's so "awkward and unidiomatic" about it? It simply has a different meaning: "I'm in a room with women". Cf. Tá mé i seomra le leapa shingil.

It just does sound awkward to me. For whatever reason, the addition of an attibute to "leapa" in your sentence makes it seem less awkward. Maybe it's interference from English in a way, in that I find "I am in a room with women" strange, I would naturally add some sort of attibutive to "women", like "some women", "a few women" etc...

But indefinite articles simply aren't a thing in Irish. You don't have to say "a woman" when it's only one and you don't have to say "some women" when it's many. I speak other languages which work the same way, so that's never seemed odd to me.

(also seriously, what is it with you and scare quotes? You know that's one of the things that makes you seem so hostile all the time, right?)

Those aren't scare quotes, they're just quotes. I'm quoting the terms you used because they're not words I would've chosen and I don't want someone else reading this conversation to think they are. I've never understood why that's considered such a belligerent thing to do in some fora.

[Ciarán12]

And while "Tá mé i seomra le mná" is not technially breaking any specific grammatical rules, it is very awkward and unidiomatic. Your first choice was best.

What's so "awkward and unidiomatic" about it? It simply has a different meaning: "I'm in a room with women". Cf. Tá mé i seomra le leapa shingil.

It just does sound awkward to me. For whatever reason, the addition of an attibute to "leapa" in your sentence makes it seem less awkward. Maybe it's interference from English in a way, in that I find "I am in a room with women" strange, I would naturally add some sort of attibutive to "women", like "some women", "a few women" etc...

But indefinite articles simply aren't a thing in Irish. You don't have to say "a woman" when it's only one and you don't have to say "some women" when it's many. I speak other languages which work the same way, so that's never seemed odd to me.

Fair enough.

(also seriously, what is it with you and scare quotes? You know that's one of the things that makes you seem so hostile all the time, right?)

Those aren't scare quotes, they're just quotes. I'm quoting the terms you used because they're not words I would've chosen and I don't want someone else reading this conversation to think they are. I've never understood why that's considered such a belligerent thing to do in some fora.

I wasn't using specific terminology, I'm fairly sure we both agree what the meanings of those words are. You don't need to use quotation marks for everything, the context made it clear that you didn't think the sentence was awkward or unidiomatic (that's exactly what you were refuting), the quotation marks make it seem as if you thought the very idea that it could be awkward or unidiomatic is ridiculous and were trying to mock me. Or at least that's how it seems to me, and I get the impression others have gotten the same impression from your use of quotation marks before, so I don't think this is just an odd idiosyncrasy of my own.