Ceist ghramadaí

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Doimnic
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Ceist ghramadaí

Postby Doimnic » 2013-03-23, 16:24

Hi there, cad é mar 'tá,

I've got a question concerning relative clauses, I've come across the following type of verbforms:
- an obair a dhéanas muid
- an ceol a chluineas tú anois
- an bia a gheobhas muid anseo
- na daoine a théas abhaile

Now, I could not find anything about these in the grammar na mBráithre Críostaí, but I found this in the grammar of the CO (http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/med ... 3%BAil.pdf):

Tá foirm choibhneasta neamhspleách ar leith ar an mbriathar san aimsir láithreach,
san aimsir ghnáthláithreach agus san aimsir fháistineach. is féidir an fhoirm sin a
úsáid sa chlásal coibhneasta de rogha ar na foirmeacha scartha den bhriathar sna
haimsirí sin.

(i) san aimsir láithreach agus san aimsir ghnáthláithreach, cuirtear an foirceann -s
in ionad -nn, e.g., an clár a bhíos ar siúl, na daoine a cheannaíos éadaí sna
siopaí sin.

(ii) san aimsir fháistineach, cuirtear an foirceann -fas in ionad -faidh, -feas in
ionad -fidh, -ós in ionad -óidh, agus -eos in ionad -eoidh, e.g., céard a
dhéanfas tú anois?, an fear a bhuailfeas an sliotar, an chuideachta a cheannós
an chuideachta eile, na daoine a chruinneos airgead thar ceann an charthanais.


So does that mean:

1) Those forms can be used in direct and indirect relative clauses? The above are all direct, are they not?
2) Those forms do not seem to be used if there is a personal ending, i.e. -(a)im. So they cannot be used for the 1st person singular of the present tense. Can they still be used for the 1st person in the future tense, seeing as it does not have any such ending in that tense (at least in the CO and the northern dialects), e.g.: - an teach a fheicfeas mise amárach? Because it does seem weird. Would be normal with "tú", but with "mé"? Maybe it is just not common use?
3) I have come across those forms in Tír Chonaill, are they used elsewhere (except, optionally, in the CO)?
4) Am I correct in stating that forms of the future tense and the present tense could be pronounced in a very similar way? e.g.: an teach a bhfeiceas tú vs. bhfeicfeas tú? It is easier with the -(a)igh-verbs, they would have: - an charr a cheannaíos/cheannós tú...
5) Is there a form for "bí"? Ar nós "tás"/"bhfuileas"? I haven't found one...

Go raibh maith agaibh!
an té naċ ḃfuil láidir, ní foláir dó ḃeiṫ ag riṫ go tapaiḋ

Ciarán12

Re: Ceist ghramadaí

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-03-23, 16:41

Good questions. I'm at as much of a loss to answer them as you, but linguoboy likes to use the relative endings, so maybe he can explain a bit better. I found this on this site:

In both the present and future special relative forms of the verb are used (with s-endings: Present: -(e)a(nn)s, Future: -f(e)as or. -ós)
e.g.: bíonn > a bhíos (also a bhíonns), beidh > a bheas, feiceann > a fheiceas (also a fheiceanns), feicfidh > a fheicfeas, éireoidh > a éireos
These relative forms are widely common, but not part of the standard.


As it says, it's not part of the standard and I don't use them. I was under the impression that they were an exclusively Munster dialect feature, but you say you've come across them in Ulster Irish? :hmm:

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Re: Ceist ghramadaí

Postby Doimnic » 2013-03-23, 17:04

Ciarán12 wrote:you say you've come across them in Ulster Irish?


Hm I have indeed, I did not know those forms were common in Gaeilge Chúige Mumhan, I thought they were more of a muintir Chonnamara/Uladh feature.

Though the one example I gave might be rarer in Gaeilg Chúige Uladh:

Doimnic wrote:na daoine a théas abhaile


"to go" can be "théid" in the present tense, at least in the northernmost dialects: "na daoine a théid abhaile anois" (usually without any ending). Same goes for:

Ciarán12 wrote:a fheiceas (also a fheiceanns)


which could just as well be "a tchí" in Tír Chonaill. But except for those the others are not too uncommon...

:yiihi: :yiihi: :yiihi:
Last edited by Doimnic on 2013-03-23, 19:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ceist ghramadaí

Postby linguoboy » 2013-03-23, 18:02

Ciarán12 wrote:Good questions. I'm at as much of a loss to answer them as you, but linguoboy likes to use the relative endings, so maybe he can explain a bit better.

I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. The relative endings are not a feature of Munster Irish. The -eas ending you see on verbs in my posts is simply the first-person singular preterite suffix, e.g. do bhíos "I was".
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

Ciarán12

Re: Ceist ghramadaí

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-03-23, 20:03

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:Good questions. I'm at as much of a loss to answer them as you, but linguoboy likes to use the relative endings, so maybe he can explain a bit better.

I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. The relative endings are not a feature of Munster Irish. The -eas ending you see on verbs in my posts is simply the first-person singular preterite suffix, e.g. do bhíos "I was".


Ah, okay. I confused do bhíos and a bhíos. Scratch what I said earlier about the relative endings being a Munster feature then.

Ciarán12

Re: Ceist ghramadaí

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-03-23, 20:09

Bhain mé é seo as an leathanach seo:

The standard of Irish by no means encompasses all the verb forms found in the dialects of Irish. A salient feature, especially of western Irish, is the presence of special verb forms used in relative clauses. These end in /-s/ and immediately follow the relative pronoun a. The occurrence of these forms in spoken Irish may well have to do with the highly polysemous nature of a /ə/.

Present relative verb form

An té a bhaineanns leis an múinteoreacht.
‘The person who has to do with teaching.’
An bádóir a théanns amach gach lá.
‘The boatman who goes out every day.’

The relative form in the future consists of -fas which is suffixed to a bare verb stem.

Future relative verb form

An cailín a thiocfas amárach.
‘The girl who will come tomorrow.’
An bhean a ghlanfas an t-orlár.
‘The woman who will clean the floor.’


But this still doesn't answer the question of whether or not it can be used for indirect relative clauses. I haven't found any with indirect clauses, and the lack of them is starting to become suspicious.

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Re: Ceist ghramadaí

Postby Doimnic » 2013-03-23, 20:28

Hm, thaks for your input, guys. I found something in the Graiméar na mBráithre Críostaí after all:

14.19 Tá foirmeacha coibhneasta (láithreach, gnáthláithreach agus fáistineach)
taobh amuigh den chaighdeán oifigiúil ag na briathra rialta, agus ag
cuid de na briathra neamhrialta, agus tá foirm choibhneasta fháistineach
ag bunáite na mbriathra neamhrialta. Úsáidtear iad go minic sa litríocht,
sna paidreacha agus sa chaint, in ionad na bhfoirmeacha dar críoch -nn,
-idh atá sa chaighdeán oifigiúil.
Chun na foirmeacha coibhneasta leithleacha sin a chumadh cuirtear -s
in áit -nn i bhfoirceann an láithrigh agus an ghnáthláithrigh scartha,
agus cuirtear -eas, -s in áit -idh, ar lorg consain agus ar lorg guta, faoi
seach, i bhfoirceann an fháistinigh scartha: dhúnas, dhúnfas; bhriseas,
bhrisfeas; phacálas, phacálfas; shiúlas, shiúlfas; dhós, dhófas; phléas,
phléifeas; chaíos, chaífeas; ghuíos, ghuífeas; thosaíos, thosós; dhíríos,
dhíreos; chosnaíos, chosnós; choiglíos, choigleos; aithrisíos,
aithriseos; déarfas; bheireas, bhéarfas; bhíos, bheas (neamhrialta);
chloisfeas; chluinfeas; dhéanfas; gheobhas; tífeas; itheas; íosfas;
bhéarfas (tabhair); thiocfas; rachas.


So it would appear, that there are two forms for "": "bhíos" (not to be confused with the 1st person singular preterite in Munster ;-) ) in the aimsir ghnáthláithreach, "bheas" for the aimsir fháistineach and none for the aimsir láithreach. That's good to know ;)
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Re: Ceist ghramadaí

Postby Doimnic » 2013-03-23, 21:57

Ciarán12 wrote:Bhain mé é seo as an leathanach seo:

The standard of Irish by no means encompasses all the verb forms found in the dialects of Irish. A salient feature, especially of western Irish, is the presence of special verb forms used in relative clauses. These end in /-s/ and immediately follow the relative pronoun a. The occurrence of these forms in spoken Irish may well have to do with the highly polysemous nature of a /ə/.

Present relative verb form

An té a bhaineanns leis an múinteoreacht.


Maith thú! I've come to realise that the forms in the present tense ending in - (e)as are supposed to be rather Ulster/Standard forms, while in Connamara you'd rather hear - (e)anns.

Ciarán12 wrote:But this still doesn't answer the question of whether or not it can be used for indirect relative clauses. I haven't found any with indirect clauses, and the lack of them is starting to become suspicious.

Yeah, its probably only for direct relative clauses. And never used after negative particles (e.g. "nach") either, according to my reseach :)

and I made some mistakes here:

Doimnic wrote:4) Am I correct in stating that forms of the future tense and the present tense could be pronounced in a very similar way? e.g.: an teach a bhfeiceas tú vs. bhfeicfeas tú? It is easier with the -(a)igh-verbs, they would have: - an charr a cheannaíos/cheannós tú...


It should be ...a fheiceas/fheicfeas tú... (or in Connamara: a fheiceanns ;) ),
Or ...a tchías tú/a tchífeas tú... in Ulster...

:bittercry: :bittercry: :bittercry: :bittercry:

at least I feel now adequately informed about relative verb forms, will take months till I forget them. I hope. Language learning is kind of an uphill battle i gcónaí... ;-)
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Re: Ceist ghramadaí

Postby Doimnic » 2013-03-24, 1:04

linguoboy wrote:An áit a bhfuil do chroí is ann a thabharfas do chosa thú.
(Lit: "The place where is your heart, is there that will put your feet you.")


Busted! Tá tusa féin ag baint úsáid as foirmeacha coibhneasta fosta a Linguoboy :P I thread Mícheál.
Ach tá a fhios agam, ní ach seanfhocal atá ann... :wink:
Last edited by Doimnic on 2013-03-24, 23:43, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ceist ghramadaí

Postby linguoboy » 2013-03-24, 14:00

Doimnic wrote:
linguoboy wrote:An áit a bhfuil do chroí is ann a thabharfas do chosa thú.
(Lit: "The place where is your heart, is there that will put your feet you.")

Busted! Tá tusa féin ag báint úsáid as foirmeacha coibhneasta fosta a Linguoboy :P I thread Mícheál.
Ach tá a fhios agam, níl ach seanfhocal atá ann... :wink:

Tá beirthe amuigh agat orm, a Dhoim! Do luas an seanfhocal mar a bhí sé á fhagtha agam. (In Mumhain déarfaí an áit go bhfuil.) Do bhíos ag smaoineamh é d'athrú ach Gaelainn Chonamara an chanúint go bhfuil suim is mó ag Mícheál inti in aon chuma, nach í?
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