Gaeilge - Caoimhín

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-13, 13:36

kevin wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:Well "ˠ " and "ʲ" are the only two I think you'll find for Irish. Unfortunately, they don't have the same effect on all consonants, so the "broad" consonants (followed in IPA by "ˠ ") and the "slender" consonants (followed in IPA by "ʲ") kind of have to be learned off individually.

Is that true to this extent with actual phonetic transcription? I always thought there was some system behind it that and I would just have to learn what it is.

In a narrow phonetic transcription, some consonants might be transcribed slightly differently. For instance, the palatalised velar stops (phonemically /kʲ, gʲ/, or even /kʹ, gʹ/, depending on your conventions) are generally represented as true palatals ([c,ɟ]).

kevin wrote:
It's generally true that "broad" consonants are followed by a short glide (a [w] if the consonant is labial and a kind of velar [w] else where) and that "slender" consonants are followed by a [j]-glide, but (for me anyway) that's not the only thing that changes in some cases.

So would actually define the difference using the glide sounds? The way I read it so far is that the difference is in the consonants themselves and the glide sounds are just artefacts that happen to occur when you pronounce a slender consonant next to a broad vowel (or vice versa).

What you say is true, kevin, but one approach the proper pronunciation is to concentrate of producing the artefacts and then try to pare back their expression until you're really only modifying the consonant itself.

kevin wrote:
Also, I have many instances of neither velar nor palatalised consonants ("bean", for example - I do not pronounce this as [bjan̪], but more as [ban] (maybe [bɛ̯an̪]), but "beart" is [bjaɹt̪] to me).

Great. Any way to predict this?

Unlike Ciarán, I don't have this sort of contrast. [bjaɹt̪] sounds overpronounced to me.
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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-02-13, 14:23

linguoboy wrote:
kevin wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:Well "ˠ " and "ʲ" are the only two I think you'll find for Irish. Unfortunately, they don't have the same effect on all consonants, so the "broad" consonants (followed in IPA by "ˠ ") and the "slender" consonants (followed in IPA by "ʲ") kind of have to be learned off individually.

Is that true to this extent with actual phonetic transcription? I always thought there was some system behind it that and I would just have to learn what it is.

In a narrow phonetic transcription, some consonants might be transcribed slightly differently. For instance, the palatalised velar stops (phonemically /kʲ, gʲ/, or even /kʹ, gʹ/, depending on your conventions) are generally represented as true palatals ([c,ɟ]).


I was thinking of slender /r/, which I have as [ʐ] or [ʒ]. I don't think anyone pronounces it as an alveolar tap followed by a j-glide (something that sounds more like it belongs in Japanese than Irish).

linguoboy wrote:
kevin wrote:
It's generally true that "broad" consonants are followed by a short glide (a [w] if the consonant is labial and a kind of velar [w] else where) and that "slender" consonants are followed by a [j]-glide, but (for me anyway) that's not the only thing that changes in some cases.

So would actually define the difference using the glide sounds? The way I read it so far is that the difference is in the consonants themselves and the glide sounds are just artefacts that happen to occur when you pronounce a slender consonant next to a broad vowel (or vice versa).

What you say is true, kevin, but one approach the proper pronunciation is to concentrate of producing the artefacts and then try to pare back their expression until you're really only modifying the consonant itself.


You've lost me.

linguoboy wrote:
kevin wrote:
Also, I have many instances of neither velar nor palatalised consonants ("bean", for example - I do not pronounce this as [bjan̪], but more as [ban] (maybe [bɛ̯an̪]), but "beart" is [bjaɹt̪] to me).

Great. Any way to predict this?

Unlike Ciarán, I don't have this sort of contrast. [bjaɹt̪] sounds overpronounced to me.


The [j] in there is by analogy with "neart". In any case, it still stands that I (and I think many other "genuine" speakers) have a three way distinction of consonants - palatal, velarised and normal (you even alluded to having a 'normal' /f/ in "deirfiúr" I think) in a spelling system that only distinguishes palatal and velar.

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-13, 15:37

Ciarán12 wrote:The [j] in there is by analogy with "neart". In any case, it still stands that I (and I think many other "genuine" speakers) have a three way distinction of consonants - palatal, velarised and normal (you even alluded to having a 'normal' /f/ in "deirfiúr" I think) in a spelling system that only distinguishes palatal and velar.

You mean because I wrote [d̪ɾʲɪˈfuːɾˠ] and not [d̪ʲɾʲɪˈfʷuːɾˠ]? Personally I think indicating labialisation on a labiovelar before a labial vowel is IPA overkill, but YMMV. (Leaving off velarisationpalatalisation of the /d/ was just sloppiness. Because most clusters agree in slenderness or broadness, the usual convention in phonemic transcription is to indicate it only once, i.e. /drʹəˈfuːr/. But this is unacceptable for a strict phonetic transcription which is what I was aiming for there. IPA is hard; let's go shopping.)

I don't understand what "normal" means here. When I listen to Gaeltacht speakers, every consonant is clearly velarised/labialised or palatal/palatalised. There really is no third option.
Last edited by linguoboy on 2013-02-13, 16:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-02-13, 15:52

linguoboy wrote:I don't understand what "normal" means here. When I listen to Gaeltacht speakers, every consonant is clearly velarised/labialised or palatal/palatalised. There really is no third option.


What about words like <bí>? Do you really have a glide after [b] there, as in [bji:]? That sounds very strange to me.

I think the thread is getting a little derailed here BTW.

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-13, 16:17

Ciarán12 wrote:What about words like <bí>? Do you really have a glide after [b] there, as in [bji:]? That sounds very strange to me.

I don't have a glide; I have palatalisation. You're the one who's inserting a glide after slender consonants, according to your transcriptions. You might be hearing palatalisation before front consonants as "normal" because you have a bit of it in your English.

Ciarán12 wrote:I think the thread is getting a little derailed here BTW.

Tá claonadh agam aontú. Tá snáithe comhrá maidir leis an bhfuaimniú cheana againn. But I guess we're looking for something to do while we wait for kevin to translate the next selection.
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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-02-13, 16:34

linguoboy wrote:
Ciarán12 wrote:I think the thread is getting a little derailed here BTW.

Tá claonadh agam aontú. Tá snáithe comhrá maidir leis an bhfuaimniú cheana againn. But I guess we're looking for something to do while we wait for kevin to translate the next selection.


I'm going to post responses to phonology discussion there then.

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby kevin » 2013-02-13, 21:01

Not going to translate the next section today, but here's my version with the progressive and some of your comments addressed:

Tá lasair lag ag dó ar an tsornóg. Tá mé i mo shuí in aice leis na tine agus ag fanacht leis an tae. Tá an mháthair ag cócaráil éisc le haghaidh an tae. Táimid ag ól caife ar an mbricfeasta. Tá mo dheirfiúr bheag ag ól crúiscín bainne te. Tá an t-athair ag ól muga beorach fholláin. Tá mórán oícheanta gan chodladh ag ár máthair. Tá tinneas ar an deartháir níos óige. Tá an mháthair ag gol: tá a súile lán de dheora. Ar sí: "Táim ag gol mar gheall ort."


Also, I'm not sure if a personal thread can be derailed as long as the discussion is still of interest for the thread "owner", which it definitely was. But moving it to the other thread was probably a good idea anyway, now we can go on with two threads that I'm interested in. :)

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-13, 21:26

kevin wrote:Tá mé i mo shuí in aice leis na tine agus ag fanacht leis an tae.

Doppelt gemoppelt! Either in aice leis an tine (dative) or in aice na tine (genitive). The difference is roughly "next to" vs "near to" (i.e. not much difference at all).

Otherwise, is ar fheabhas atá an chuid oibre atá déanta agat!
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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby kevin » 2013-02-15, 21:46

linguoboy wrote:"Where is the child's other father? He is in the kitchen (cistin) preparing [the] dinner. He is cooking [the] fish. He comes home (abhaile) from [the] work earlier so that he has enough time (dóthain ama[*]) to prepare [the] dinner. His husband asks him why the child has not done[**] her homework. He says, "Isn't there enough for me to do as it is? Now where is the milk that I asked you to buy (ceannaigh)?""

[*] Lit. "sufficiency [of] time"
[**] Use gan.

I guess I could spend some more time on it, there are a few tricky things in it. But it's probably quicker if you just tell me. ;)

Cá bhfuil athair eile an páiste? Tá sé sa chistin agus ag ullmhú an dinnéir. Tá sé ag cócaráil an éisc. Tagann sé abhaile ón obair níos luaithe go bhfuil dóthain ama aige go ullmhú an dinnéir. Tá a fhear céile ag fiafraí de cén fáth a bhfuil an páiste gan déanamh a hobair bhaile. Ar sé, "Níl dóthain le déanamh agam mar atá sé? Anois cá bhfuil an bainne a d'iarr mé a ceanniónn tú é?"

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-02-15, 22:45

"Where is the child's other father? He is in the kitchen (cistin) preparing [the] dinner. He is cooking [the] fish. He comes home (abhaile) from [the] work earlier so that he has enough time (dóthain ama[*]) to prepare [the] dinner. His husband asks him why the child has not done[**] her homework. He says, "Isn't there enough for me to do as it is? Now where is the milk that I asked you to buy (ceannaigh)?""


Okay, here's my version.

"Cá bhfuil athair eile an pháiste? Tá sé sa chistin ag réitiú an dinnéir. Tá sé ag réitiú an éisc. Tagann sé abhaile ón obair níos luaithe chun go bhfuil dóthain ama aige chun an dinnéar a réitiú. Fiafraíonn a fhear céile de cén fáth atá an páiste gan a bheith a obair bhaile déanta aici.
Ar seisean "Nach bhfuil go leor rudaí le déanamh agam mar atá an scéal? 'nois, cén áit a bhfuil an bainne ar iarr mé ort a cheannach?

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby kevin » 2013-02-15, 22:53

Now I'm tempted to edit mine to remove the stupid mistakes at least... :D

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-02-15, 22:56

kevin wrote:Now I'm tempted to edit mine to remove the stupid mistakes at least... :D


Mine or yours? :silly:

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby kevin » 2013-02-15, 23:07

You don't want me to touch your text. Seriously. Or are you just trying to say that you put mistakes in my posting? :para:

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-02-15, 23:22

kevin wrote:You don't want me to touch your text. Seriously. Or are you just trying to say that you put mistakes in my posting? :para:


Heh, yes, I am conspiring against you by inserting mistakes into your texts. Actually, I'm doing it telepathically into your mind. I call it Gaelception. :wink:

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby kevin » 2013-02-15, 23:57

I thought so. This explains some things. Or at least makes for a good excuse. ;)

But now you ought to get active in one of my languages, I must try if the same works the other way round. Some Alemannic would be a nice revenge for your putting Irish on me. :P

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-02-16, 0:11

kevin wrote:But now you ought to get active in one of my languages, I must try if the same works the other way round. Some Alemannic would be a nice revenge for your putting Irish on me. :P


Please, don't tempt me. I'm very susceptible to wanderlust!

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-16, 2:24

If it'll make you feel better, a Chaoimhín, I'll go through Ciarán's version first. Gan trua gan trócaire!
Ciarán wrote:"Cá bhfuil athair eile an pháiste? Tá sé sa chistin ag réitiú an dinnéir. Tá sé ag réitiú an éisc. Tagann sé abhaile ón obair níos luaithe chun go bhfuil dóthain ama aige chun an dinnéar a réitiú. Fiafraíonn a fhear céile de cén fáth atáa bhfuil an páiste gan a bheith a obair bhaile déanta aici. Ar seisean "Nach bhfuil go leor rudaí le déanamh agam mar atá an scéal? 'nois, cén áit a bhfuil an bainne ar iarr mé ort é a cheannach?"

Notes:
1. Chun go isn't wrong, but the chun is superfluous. Go alone is sufficient to express purpose.
2. Cén fáth takes an indirect relative clause.
3. I can't stress this enough: a bheith a obair bhaile déanta aici is pure Béarlachas. Remember that this construction with the verbal adjective is a passive perfective, not a true perfect, and you shouldn't use it everywhere you would have a perfect in English (not even Irish English, which is less fond of the perfect than other varieties). Prefer kevin's solution, with a simple verbal noun.
4. In the same vein, a verbal noun construction (e.g. é a dhéanamh) is not the equivalent of an English infinitive. In particular, it's a fixed unit; you can't "extract" the object like we do in English (i.e. "I asked you to buy milk" > "The milk I asked you to buy"). In a situation like you have above, Irish calls for an indirect relative clause with a resumptive pronoun (i.e. "the milk [that] I asked you to buy it").

I may have mentioned this before, but often I notice a tendency for your Irish to be more wordy than is necessary. In general, an Irish translation should come out shorter than an English equivalent. Nach bhfuil go leor rudaí le déanamh agam is a good example. Nach bhfuil mo dhóthain le déanamh agam is a more Gaelic idiom, as is Nach leor dom a bhfuil le déanamh agam.

Seo anois, ní raibh caill ort, nach ea?
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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-02-16, 3:06

linguoboy wrote:1. Chun go isn't wrong, but the chun is superfluous. Go alone is sufficient to express purpose.


I looked up ways to say "in order to" and it came up. I prefer it to just "go", because that also means "that", so there'd be a danger I'd misunderstand.

linguoboy wrote:2. Cén fáth takes an indirect relative clause.


Okay.

linguoboy wrote:3. I can't stress this enough: a bheith a obair bhaile déanta aici is pure Béarlachas. Remember that this construction with the verbal adjective is a passive perfective, not a true perfect, and you shouldn't use it everywhere you would have a perfect in English (not even Irish English, which is less fond of the perfect than other varieties). Prefer kevin's solution, with a simple verbal noun.


I had several solutions to that problem, and I couldn't decide which to go with. I wanted to say "gan a obair bhaile." - "without her homework." I also thought of "gan a obair bhaile déanta" but I didn't think that was grammatical. I don't understand how "gan déanamh a obair bhaile" can mean "without her homework done" as opposed to " without doing her homework".

linguoboy wrote:4. In the same vein, a verbal noun construction (e.g. é a dhéanamh) is not the equivalent of an English infinitive. In particular, it's a fixed unit; you can't "extract" the object like we do in English (i.e. "I asked you to buy milk" > "The milk I asked you to buy").


Okay.

linguoboy wrote:In a situation like you have above, Irish calls for an indirect relative clause with a resumptive pronoun (i.e. "the milk [that] I asked you to buy it").


Just to clarify, that's "ar iarr mé ort é a cheannach", and not your way of saying that I should have gone for some completely different formula, right?

linguoboy wrote:I may have mentioned this before, but often I notice a tendency for your Irish to be more wordy than is necessary. In general, an Irish translation should come out shorter than an English equivalent. Nach bhfuil go leor rudaí le déanamh agam is a good example. Nach bhfuil mo dhóthain le déanamh agam is a more Gaelic idiom, as is Nach leor dom a bhfuil le déanamh agam.


You have. I'm not really sure the alternatives you provided could be considered "less wordy" though. They match English syntax less well, certainly, but I've never come across either of those idioms, so I couldn't really have known to use them. Was there anything grammatically wrong with the way I put it? Also, "Nach leor dom a bhfuil le déanamh agam" makes absolutely no fuckin' sense to me...

linguoboy wrote:Seo anois, ní raibh caill ort, nach ea?


Cad? Ní thuigim.

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-16, 3:20

"The man says nothing (schweigt). He looks abashed[*], but his husband is not looking at him. He has gone back[**] to the cooking. The man notices the dog in the kitchen and it looks hungry. He begins to give it food, but the other man hears that and tells him, "Don't give him anything, I've just fed him."[***] There is nothing for him to do in the kitchen, so he goes into the other room where the child is still watching television. "Didn't I tell you to turn that off?" he says. "You didn't, as a matter of fact," she says."

[*] "There is a dreach náireach [shameful expression] on him."
[**] Use dul i gceann + gen. + arís
[***] Irish English "I'm after feeding him already."

STÓR FOCAL
an bia food
cheana already
cloisteáil hearing
an chócaireacht [act of] cooking
cothú feeding
cur giving
an dealramh appearance
fós still
insint telling
an madra dog
múchadh putting out, extinguishing
ocrach hungry
tar éis after
tabhairt faoi ndeara noticing
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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby linguoboy » 2013-02-16, 3:36

Ciarán12 wrote:I looked up ways to say "in order to" and it came up. I prefer it to just "go", because that also means "that", so there'd be a danger I'd misunderstand.

IME, this seldom if ever causes real ambiguity.

Ciarán12 wrote:I don't understand how "gan déanamh a obair bhaile" can mean "without her homework done" as opposed to " without doing her homework".

Simple: Irish doesn't make this distinction. She went without doing her homework, so her homework isn't done.

Ciarán12 wrote:Just to clarify, that's "ar iarr mé ort é a cheannach"

'Sea.

Ciarán12 wrote:You have. I'm not really sure the alternatives you provided could be considered "less wordy" though.

Nach bhfuil go leor rudaí le déanamh agam (8 words in 11 syllables)
Nach bhfuil mo dhóthain le déanamh agam (7 words in 10 syllables)
Nach leor dom a bhfuil le déanamh agam (9 words in 10 syllables)

Granted, it's not a big difference, but over the course of a paragraph or two, it adds up.

Ciarán12 wrote:Also, "Nach leor dom a bhfuil le déanamh agam" makes absolutely no fuckin' sense to me...

Cad atá air? "is-not enough for-me all-that-which is to do at-me" = "Isn't everything I have to do enough for me?"

linguoboy wrote:Seo anois, ní raibh caill ort, nach ea?

"There there, that wasn't so bad [it wasn't a loss for you], innit?"
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