Gaeilge - Caoimhín

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-11-06, 18:48

kevin wrote:As you all know, I like to discuss corrections, so here we go. ;)

Ciarán12 wrote:
kevin wrote:Is í an fhadhb (í ná) go bhfuil scríobh na Gaeilge an-mhall dom. Mar sin is fearr liom léamh. ;)


I had é there, because this grammar said that it refers to the go clause rather than to fadhb, and you should use é for such clauses. In fact, now that I had another look at the page, it even explicitly says:
z.B. Is é mo bharúil gonicht *Is í mo bharúil go … Vgl. Deutsch: "Es ist meine Meinung, daß …"


So are these two different cases, or who is right?


Interesting. I have never heard that and always just assumed the pronoun referred to the subject of the copular clause. Cool, now I know! I really should go though that grammar actually.

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby An Lon Dubh » 2013-11-19, 17:48

The Copula for definite predicates has the following basic grammar:

Is (é/í/iad) Predicate Subject.

Subject = What you are speaking about.
Predicate = Information given.

The é/í/iad is a pronoun matching the predicate in gender. If the Predicate is not a noun, for example if it is a clause with go, the gender defaults to é. This pronoun refers to the gender of the predicate.

Now very often if the predicate is too long or you want to put emphasis on it, it is "delayed" until after the subject. Predicate in brackets.
Is í an fhadhb leis na leabhair sin ná [teacht orthu] = The difficult thing about those books is finding.
Is í an fhadhb ná [go bhfuil scríobh na Gaeilge an-mhall dom]

Often, when the predicate is moved to the end of the sentence like this, you place ná in front of it, especially when it contains a go-clause or a verbal noun construction.
The first example above is a verbal noun construction predicate and the second is a go-clause predicate. (This is basically what Lars' grammar says.)
Last edited by An Lon Dubh on 2014-11-15, 12:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby kevin » 2014-11-15, 11:07

kevin wrote:[flag=]ga[/flag] An bhfuil tú cinnte? Féach an abairt atá tú féin tar éis scríobh!

Quoting myself from the translation game because I'm really unsure about the relative clause. I am reasonably sure about simpler forms of the sentence:

Tá tú ag scríobh na habairte (with "ag")
Féach an abairt a scríobh tú (nothing, obviously, as there is no VN)
Féach an abairt a bhí tú a scríobh (with "a")

It's already confusing enough with the third case, but with tar éis appearing, I'm lost. Variants that I considered, in the order of likelihood:

1) Féach an abairt atá tú féin tar éis scríobh
2) Féach an abairt atá tú féin tar éis é a scríobh
3) Féach an abairt atá tú féin tar éis a scríobh

What sounds acceptable, and do you have any tips for remembering what currently looks like a mess to me? :)

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-11-15, 14:14

kevin wrote:Tá tú ag scríobh na habairte (with "ag")
Féach ar an abairt a scríobh tú (nothing, obviously, as there is no VN)


I'll just point out here what I've already done in the game thread itself - you always féach ar something, can't just féach it :)

kevin wrote:Féach ar an abairt a bhí tú a scríobh (with "a")


I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Did you mean ag scríobh rather than a scríobh? The current sentence doesn't make sense to me.

kevin wrote:It's already confusing enough with the third case, but with tar éis appearing, I'm lost. Variants that I considered, in the order of likelihood:

1) Féach an abairt atá tú féin tar éis scríobh
2) Féach an abairt atá tú féin tar éis é a scríobh
3) Féach an abairt atá tú féin tar éis a scríobh

What sounds acceptable, and do you have any tips for remembering what currently looks like a mess to me? :)


I have the same problem, basically. When I try our good friend Google it shows hardly any results for "tar éis a scríobh" or "tar éis é a scríobh" but many for "tar éis scríobh". The confusing thing is, "tar éis scríobh" is always followed by "chuig" or occasionally "go dtí", so I'm not clear as to whether you can say it as in your example sentence without the preposition (and, obviously then the indirect object) afterwards. I'm fairly sure "Taim tar éis é a scríobh" is the normal way of saying "I've (just) written it", and I have the feeling linguoboy told me somewhere that these kind of sentences in Irish need the pronoun to reappear in the relative clause, as in 2) above.

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby kevin » 2014-11-15, 16:37

Ciarán12 wrote:I'll just point out here what I've already done in the game thread itself - you always féach ar something, can't just féach it :)

That's what I actually had expected before looking it up, but then the dictionary had examples like ~ an chuma atá air, look at his appearance; ~ ansin é, look at him there; ~ an chéad leathanach eile, see the next page where it was used transitively without a preposition.

kevin wrote:Féach ar an abairt a bhí tú a scríobh (with "a")

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Did you mean ag scríobh rather than a scríobh? The current sentence doesn't make sense to me.

Yes, with "ag" it would also make a whole lot more sense to me. :)

This is based on Lars Braesicke's grammar which explicitly says "1.) direktes Objekt als Bezugswort: Statt ag steht a mit Lenition des VN."

I have the same problem, basically. When I try our good friend Google it shows hardly any results for "tar éis a scríobh" or "tar éis é a scríobh" but many for "tar éis scríobh". The confusing thing is, "tar éis scríobh" is always followed by "chuig" or occasionally "go dtí", so I'm not clear as to whether you can say it as in your example sentence without the preposition (and, obviously then the indirect object) afterwards.

What I tried was googling for "atá tú tar éis" (and also in first person), but it didn't give very clear results either.

I'm fairly sure "Taim tar éis é a scríobh" is the normal way of saying "I've (just) written it", and I have the feeling linguoboy told me somewhere that these kind of sentences in Irish need the pronoun to reappear in the relative clause, as in 2) above.

Okay. I'll wait for him to confirm then.

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby An Lon Dubh » 2014-11-17, 14:30

If you want to write a sentence with tar éis and an object you use do for the subject:

tar éis dom abairt a scríobh = after I had written a sentence
tar éis abairte a scríobh dom = after I had written a sentence

Both structures are possible, but native speakers use the first more in my experience. In the second type the noun can optionally be put in the genitive as I have done above.

If you're using a pronoun as the object, you use the possessive and traditionally put the verbal noun in the genitive:

tar éis a scríofa dhom = after I had written it

If the object has been referred to previously I'd use the sentence structure:

Féach ar an abairt tar éis scríofa dhuit = Look at the sentence you have written

That is if you're using "tar éis" as a relative clause you don't repeat the object.

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby kevin » 2014-11-17, 17:24

An Lon Dubh wrote:If you want to write a sentence with tar éis and an object you use do for the subject:

tar éis dom abairt a scríobh = after I had written a sentence
tar éis abairte a scríobh dom = after I had written a sentence

But isn't this use of tar éis as a conjunction a construction completely different from I'm after writing? You're not saying that Tá mé tar éis abairt a scríobh is wrong, are you?

Féach ar an abairt tar éis scríofa dhuit = Look at the sentence you have written

That is if you're using "tar éis" as a relative clause you don't repeat the object.

Wait, "tar éis" can be used to start a relative clause? :shock:

According to what you wrote above, I would have translated this as something like Look at the sentence after you've written.

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby An Lon Dubh » 2014-11-17, 21:11

But isn't this use of tar éis as a conjunction a construction completely different from I'm after writing? You're not saying that Tá mé tar éis abairt a scríobh is wrong, are you?

Oh sorry, no indeed. Tá mé tar éis abairt(e) a scríobh is perfectly fine. My one is the sub-clause use as you said. I was only mentioning it because that was the type I was going to mention for the relative clause.

Wait, "tar éis" can be used to start a relative clause?

In Seán Ó Dálaigh, Tímcheall Chinn Sléibhe, p.9:

aon uainín beag lag tar éis beirthe dho

Although it is very uncommon. I'm really just using "tar éis" because it was mentioned here and it was the only 'natural' way I could think of using it. Really I'd just say:

Féach ar an abairt a scríobhais

It is better I think to use the past, as it tends to cover this type of English perfect use.

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby linguoboy » 2014-11-17, 21:22

An Lon Dubh wrote:Although it is very uncommon. I'm really just using "tar éis" because it was mentioned here and it was the only 'natural' way I could think of using it. Really I'd just say:

Féach ar an abairt a scríobhais

It is better I think to use the past, as it tends to cover this type of English perfect use.

If you wanted to emphasise the recentness, I suppose you could just add anois féin to the subclause.
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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby An Lon Dubh » 2014-11-17, 21:36

linguoboy wrote:If you wanted to emphasise the recentness, I suppose you could just add anois féin to the subclause.

Yes indeed, that's probably the best way to do it.

Actually I'm a bit shaky on the use of "tar éis" as a relative above. Other examples I've found (Mayo Irish) are a bit old and the author might be attempting to be purposefully archaic. It would descend from the original particle "iar" that tar éis replaced.

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby kevin » 2014-11-17, 22:47

An Lon Dubh wrote:Oh sorry, no indeed. Tá mé tar éis abairt(e) a scríobh is perfectly fine. My one is the sub-clause use as you said. I was only mentioning it because that was the type I was going to mention for the relative clause.

Hm, okay, though my question was about how to turn the former into a relative clause like abairt a ... So you're saying that while as a main clause the sentence is perfectly fine, putting it into a relative clause would be unnatural, so that there isn't even a way to say how it would be gramatically correct? This is surprising.

Wait, "tar éis" can be used to start a relative clause?

In Seán Ó Dálaigh, Tímcheall Chinn Sléibhe, p.9:

aon uainín beag lag tar éis beirthe dho

Is this really a relative clause? It doesn't look like one to me, not having a relative particle and also no place that would refer to an antecedent. In comparison with my example, the interesting part, the direct object in the relative clause, is also missing here.

Really I'd just say:

Féach ar an abairt a scríobhais

It is better I think to use the past, as it tends to cover this type of English perfect use.

Okay. I tried to say it this way because the English version said "you just wrote" and the past didn't seem to express the "just", but I guess I could go with linguoboy's suggestion there.

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby An Lon Dubh » 2014-11-18, 12:48

kevin wrote:Hm, okay, though my question was about how to turn the former into a relative clause like abairt a ... So you're saying that while as a main clause the sentence is perfectly fine, putting it into a relative clause would be unnatural, so that there isn't even a way to say how it would be gramatically correct? This is surprising.

It just isn't used. I searched fourty novels by native speakers there electronically and I don't see an example of it. I don't recall hearing a native speaker using such a construction ever either.

It's quite common in Irish for a expected "variant" of a sentence not to exist and a different construction entirely to be used in the negative or relative versions of the sentence. For example when forming a perfect with:

Tá + verbal adjective + form of ag (for agent)

like:

Tá an obair déanta agam.

It's reasonably uncommon for this to be negated with Níl, rather they will switch to the past:

Níor dheineas an obair.

Just as how "tar éis" is rarely negated with "níl", but with "gan":

Táim tar éis an obair a dhéanamh
Táim gan obair a dhéanamh (fós)


Is this really a relative clause?

No. I just mean it is being used like one, it was the closest I could think of, in the sense that it expanded on an antecedent. It's actually the original way tar éis was used historically, when it was still an alternate to "iar". It's not grammatically a relative clause in Irish.
Really though, these sentence types are not used. I asked a native speaker friend and she said you could say:

An abairt a bhfuil tar éis a scríofa dhuit

but said that it would be better to use the past.

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby kevin » 2014-11-18, 13:00

Okay, that makes things a bit clearer. Thanks!

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby Ciarán12 » 2014-11-22, 23:37

Related to the discussion of tar éis, this Wikipedia page says you can say Tá sí tar éis baint an fhéir, I would have said Tá sí tar éis an fhéir a bhaint (and I can see above that An Lon Dubh agrees that that syntax is correct). Are both options correct? Is it dialectal, or is there a semantic difference?

Sorry for hijacking your thread a Chaoimhín, táim cinnte nach gcuirfidh sé as duit :wink:

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby kevin » 2015-01-17, 17:51

I thought it might be helpful to switch my desktop to Irish, but I'm not so sure any more. When the instant messenger has pop-up messages like "Is <ainm> Ná Cuir Isteach Orm anois", it feels like that might be a sign that it does more harm than good... :?

Agus ceapaim go bhfuil Ciarán ag fanacht le freagra fós. ;)

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby An Lon Dubh » 2015-02-28, 0:05

Ciarán12 wrote:Related to the discussion of tar éis, this Wikipedia page says you can say Tá sí tar éis baint an fhéir, I would have said Tá sí tar éis an fhéir a bhaint (and I can see above that An Lon Dubh agrees that that syntax is correct). Are both options correct? Is it dialectal, or is there a semantic difference?

Sorry for hijacking your thread a Chaoimhín, táim cinnte nach gcuirfidh sé as duit :wink:

Sorry, didn't see this until now. Your sentence would correspond to the historical usage. I've the Wikipedia form, but it's not very common.

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby kevin » 2015-07-27, 21:52

In order to avoid off-topic discussions in the game thread, let's continue this here:

linguoboy wrote:
kevin wrote:
Aisling wrote:Ní féidir leis an duine i mo dhiaidh dul go háiteanna nach bhfuil a fhios aige eolas aige air :?: ina aonar.

nach bhfuil eolas aige orthu = die ihm nicht gut bekannt sind
nach bhfuil aithne aige orthu = die er nicht kennt

So I could use either, just with a slightly different meaning? At first, I wanted to correct it into aithne, but then it appeared to me that you wouldn't use that for places, only for persons. I guess the dictionary was just incomplete then.

In any case nach bhfuil a fhios aige doesn't work, right?

linguoboy wrote:Is fearr liom ina aonar a chur in an-ghar dona hainm bhriathartha, i.e. ...dul ina aonar go háiteanna...

Shíl mé an rud céanna, ach ní raibh uaim dhá ceartúcháin a dhéanamh ag an am céanna. ;)

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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby linguoboy » 2015-07-28, 16:42

kevin wrote:So I could use either, just with a slightly different meaning? At first, I wanted to correct it into aithne, but then it appeared to me that you wouldn't use that for places, only for persons. I guess the dictionary was just incomplete then.

You most definitely could. It's much more common these days to say eolas, but aithne is possible here as well. (You'll find it in the work of Seosamh Mac Grianna, among others.)

kevin wrote:In any case nach bhfuil a fhios aige doesn't work, right?

Right. You would only use it to state that you knew something about a place, e.g. Tá a fhios agam cá bhfuil an áit sin "I know where that place is" vs Tá aithne agam ar an áit sin "I'm familiar with that place" or Tá eolas agam ar an áit sin "I know that place". (Though, oddly, "I know that place like the back of my hand" or "I know that place inside and out" is Tá na seacht n-aithne agam ar an áit sin or Tá aithne fairis na seacht n-aithne agam ar an áit sin.)
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Re: Gaeilge - Caoimhín

Postby kevin » 2017-06-14, 9:28

linguoboy, not sure if you just missed my question in księżycowy's thread or if you didn't have a good answer, but I'd still be interested in an answer. The other thread has moved on meanwhile and I don't want to hijack it, so I'm copying the question to my own thread.

kevin wrote:
linguoboy wrote:It just doesn't look right to me. Remember that despite coming in final position, Séamas is considered the subject of this clause and not the predicate. It's also the topic; múinteoir maith is the comment, the new information the listener is presumably most interested in. In many languages, the topic precedes the comment, but that's not the case here.

Can you translate something like "Who is a good teacher?" - "Séamus is a good teacher." with plain copular sentences? If I understand correctly, this wouldn't reverse the syntactic roles and "Séamus" would still be the subject in the answer, but it would make me want to move "Séamus" to the start.

But the only way I can think of to even phrase this question so that it doesn't sound incorrect to me is "Cé atá ina mhúinteoir maith?", which completely avoids the problem and therefore isn't useful in this context...

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