Croeso i'r Gymraeg!

[linguoboy]

This is a continuation of a basic Welsh thread that Llawygath and I had going on another forum. I thought others here might benefit from it as well and I know I would benefit from the input of fluent speakers like YngNgymru. I've also gone and necro'ed Yng's Basic Welsh Course thread for those who want to start off with something more structured.

The conversation we were having about tatws stwnsh (mashed potatoes) seems to have run its course, so I'm jumping back a bit to a little invented dialogue about a dog:

Coesci: Lle mae'r ci nawr?
Llawygath: Dan y bwrdd, nag ydy?
Coesci: Dw i ddim yn ei weld 'na. Ydy e dan y gwely, efallai?
Llawygath: Dydw i ddim yn ei weld dan y gwely.
Coesci: Mae hi'n dywyll iawn dan y gwely. Defnyddia'r tortsh 'ma.
Coesci: Beth wyt ti'n gweld dan y gwely nawr?

[YngNghymru]

Couple of things - in tag questions, 'isn't it' is onid yw/ydy, usually shortened in writing to on'dydy? And if you're using the pre-verbal noun pronouns in one place, you should probably use them everywhere (so beth wyt ti'n ei weld.

Otherwise, great!

[linguoboy]

Couple of things - in tag questions, 'isn't it' is onid yw/ydy, usually shortened in writing to on'dydy?

Whether on'dydy/yn dydy is perceived of as being negative or positive is a N/S difference. There's a good analysis of it here: http://benjamins.com/series/dia/25-1/art/03rot.pdf

And if you're using the pre-verbal noun pronouns in one place, you should probably use them everywhere (so beth wyt ti'n ei weld.

I don't recall seing resumptive object pronouns used in wh-questions before in Welsh. Nodwedd dy dafodiaith yw hon?

[Llawygath]

Dyma fi, I guess. Thanks for starting this thread. I hope some other people get interested and join in.

Dw i'n gweld y ci dan y gwely nawr.

[linguoboy]

Dw i'n gweld y ci dan y gwely nawr.

Ydy e'n cysgu?

[Llawygath]

Dw i'n gweld y ci dan y gwely nawr.

Ydy e'n cysgu?

Nag ydy. Mae e'n celcio oherwydd dynion y sothach. (Did that make any sense, or will I have to explain better?)

[linguoboy]

Nag ydy. Mae e'n celcio oherwyddu rhag dynion y sothachbiniau.

Cachgi yw e! Pam dydy e ddim yn ddewr fel y gath?

[YngNghymru]

There's a good analysis of it here: http://benjamins.com/series/dia/25-1/art/03rot.pdf

Oh OK, fair play - I've never noticed that, but I suppose it's not particularly obvious. I'm pretty sure that using on'd is the standard form, but maybe this is dialect chauvinism.

I don't recall seing resumptive object pronouns used in wh-questions before in Welsh. Nodwedd dy dafodiaith yw hon?

No, this is entirely standard - far more a feature of the standard language than of dialects, and far more a feature of southern dialects, as I understand it, than of northern dialects. Interrogatives are basically structured like relative clauses - with some exceptions - so you need a resumptive pronoun.

[Llawygath]

Nag ydy. Mae e'n celcio oherwyddu rhag dynion y sothachbiniau.

What's wrong with sothach? UWTSD said that meant "garbage", and besides it can't find biniau. Can you explain this?

Cachgi yw e! Pam dydy e ddim yn ddewr fel y gath?

Pa gath? Oes cath yma? Mae'r ci'n rhusiedig. (It's more complicated than that, but rhaid i mi fynd.)

[linguoboy]

Nag ydy. Mae e'n celcio oherwyddu rhag dynion y sothachbiniau.

What's wrong with sothach? UWTSD said that meant "garbage"

They don't call them "garbage men" in the UK; there they are "dustmen" or "bin men". An older colloquialism, "ash man", is the source for an alternative Welsh designation, dyn lludw.

and besides it can't find biniau. Can you explain this?

Are you searching it as "Part of a word or phrase"?

Cachgi yw e! Pam dydy e ddim yn ddewr fel y gath?

Pa gath? Oes cath yma? Mae'r ci'n rhusiedig. (It's more complicated than that, but rhaid i mi fynd.)

Beth sydd wedi ei rusio?

[linguoboy]

No, this is entirely standard - far more a feature of the standard language than of dialects, and far more a feature of southern dialects, as I understand it, than of northern dialects. Interrogatives are basically structured like relative clauses - with some exceptions - so you need a resumptive pronoun.

Not one of my sources for Welsh touches on this. There no mention of it in my grammars, neither for colloquial Welsh (King) nor literary (Thorne). Now something I have often seen is Beth wyt ti'n weld? with soft mutation but no pronoun. I always assumed the mutation represented morphological evidence for a grammatical trace. Could Beth wyt ti'n ei weld represent some sort of hypercorrection of that?

As far as I know, the only type of relative clause where you need a resumptive pronoun is the indirect relative clause, e.g. Y frawddeg wyt ti wedi gweld bai arna i amdani. But if you were to make this interrogative, you'd put the preposition before the question word, leaving nothing to resume: Am beth wyt ti'n gweld bai arna i?

This does prompt a question that's been on my mind for some time: How do you determine what is "standard"? My impression is that the formal literary standard is well-defined but rarely used. There seems to be an emergent standard with regard to the colloquial language, but the boundaries between it and informal colloquial usage are fuzzy at best.

So what resources are available for determining whether something is "standard" or not? With Irish, there is something called An Caighdeán Oifigiúil "the Official Standard", which is defined and maintained by the translation staff of the Irish Parliament. (A major revision was published by the government just last month.) Is there anything comparable in Wales?

[YngNghymru]

This IS an indirect relative clause. The object of a verbnoun is treated as the possessor of the verbnoun - this is why you can use possessive pronouns. An extracted genitive requires an indirect relative clause. See the following quotes from Gramadeg y Gymraeg:

6.131
Blaenu Gwrthrych enwol i ferf gyfansawdd
O flaenu Gwrthrych enwol i ferf syml bydd y rhagenw perthynol a yn cysylltu'r Gwrthrych blaenedig â'r ferf, e.e.

...

O flaenu Gwrthrych enwol i ferf gyfansawdd, fodd bynnag:

i. nid a ond y fydd yn cysylltu'r Gwrthrych â'r Ferf, a
ii. ychwanegir rhagenw blaen rhydd - Gwrthrych cyflenwol - sydd yn adleisio rhif a pherson y Gwrthrych o flaen y berfenw, e.e.

Teisen y mae Sara wedi ei gwneud.
Y dillad yr oedd yr afr wedi eu bwyta.

Now here is the relevant bit about interrogatives:

6.157
Llunio cwestiwn am Wrthrych

Y mae'n arferol blaenu elfennau pwysleisiedig. Ond yn wahanol i elfennau eraill, dechrau'r Cymal yw safle niwtral pwy, beth ac Ymadroddion pa. Er hynny, elfennau wedi eu blaenu yw pwy, beth ac Ymadroddion pa pan fyddant ar ddechrau Cymal. Fel gydag unrhyw Wrthrych a flaenir, felly, gwneir iawn am ddiffyg Gwrthrych i'r berfenw drwy ychwanegu Gwrthrych cyflenwol o'i flaen. Am mai enwau gwrywaidd yw pwy a peth, y rhagenw blaen gwrywaidd ei sydd yn eu cyflenwi, e.e.

Mae'r offeiriad yn paentio'r organyddes.- > Pwy y mae'r offeiriad yn ei baentio?
Mae'r athrawes yn gyrru tractor. -> Beth y mae'r athrawes yn ei yrru?

I hope this has convinced you. I'm surprised you haven't come across this construction before, to be honest - it is pretty standard in the literary language, and the elided pronouns are the source of the interrogative mutation you're talking about (not the other way around).

The preposition thing, incidentally, is the way in which interrogatives differ from normal relative clauses - you can't say *beth (yr) wyt ti'n siarad amdano?, only am beth (yr) wyt ti'n siarad? - but you do have, on the other hand, beth (yr) wyt ti'n ei weld? and beth (a) welaist ti?

Academi y Gymraeg decides what is and isn't standard - and they publish an official grammar, which is generally pretty descriptive (it treats, sort of, dialects as well as various registers of the literary language and is a massive advance on older grammars which were basically prescriptive descriptions of an idealised literary language).

Edit: also, having skimmed that paper, it seems to me like the form nag yw e is, as I thought, only acceptable with negative forms... right?

[Llawygath]

Nag ydy. Mae e'n celcio oherwyddu rhag dynion y sothachbiniau.

What's wrong with sothach? UWTSD said that meant "garbage"

They don't call them "garbage men" in the UK; there they are "dustmen" or "bin men". An older colloquialism, "ash man", is the source for an alternative Welsh designation, dyn lludw.

I see.

and besides it can't find biniau. Can you explain this?

Are you searching it as "Part of a word or phrase"?

I wasn't, but I just did now and found the definition.

Cachgi yw e! Pam dydy e ddim yn ddewr fel y gath?

Pa gath? Oes cath yma? Mae'r ci'n rhusiedig. (It's more complicated than that, but rhaid i mi fynd.)

Beth sydd wedi ei rusio?

Dynion y biniau. (Say, doesn't rhusiedig take the soft mutation here, or am I seeing things?) Dydy'r gath dim yn ddewr; mae'r gath yn celu.

Sorry, I can't really join in on the other discussion here because it's pretty far out of my depth as yet.
(Edit: Whoops, too many soft mutations!)

[linguoboy]

This IS an indirect relative clause. The object of a verbnoun is treated as the possessor of the verbnoun

*whado ei hunan*

I hope this has convinced you. I'm surprised you haven't come across this construction before, to be honest - it is pretty standard in the literary language, and the elided pronouns are the source of the interrogative mutation you're talking about (not the other way around).

I'm not too surprised since the progressive (and other verb-noun constructions) are pretty rare in Literary Welsh, IME.

Academi y Gymraeg decides what is and isn't standard - and they publish an official grammar

Uffern, llyfr arall eto i brynu!

Edit: also, having skimmed that paper, it seems to me like the form nag yw e is, as I thought, only acceptable with negative forms... right?

I'm sure you understand that there are paedagogical reasons for not pointing out every unidiomatic phrasing you possibly good, yn dwyt?

[YngNghymru]

Arguably, I suppose - but on the other hand there are definitely pedagogical reasons not to cite a paper which does not say what you think it says in defence of a phrasing that is wrong.

Also, tag questions are very useful, so learning how to form them early on is probably worthwhile.

Anyway, let's not hijack this any further.

Dynion y biniau. (Say, doesn't rhusiedig take the soft mutation here, or am I seeing things?) Dydy'r gath dim yn ddewr; mae'r gath yn celu.

Another possibility is 'binmon', though that's pretty low-register, or dyn lludw, as Linguoboy has pointed out. There's no need for the soft mutation there because rh and ll don't mutate after 'yn' (but well done for remembering the soft mutation, anyway!)

[Llawygath]

There's no need for the soft mutation there because rh and ll don't mutate after 'yn'

That's funny. I remember now that yn llyfiad is a correct form, which fits with what you just said.

(but well done for remembering the soft mutation, anyway!)

Thanks. I'm gradually learning to keep all the mutations straight, which is a good thing.

Anyway, back to working on the website. The link is in my siggy if anyone's interested. I'm only mentioning this here because in the last few weeks or so I've been working at making a Welsh section. As of today there's only the combined Welsh/Spanish section, but sometime soon I mean to split that into Welsh over here and Spanish over there. Because of this, I may be coming around periodically with questions about whether my translations are right.

[Llawygath]

Since my website is called "Full Moon", I was just trying to figure out how one would render "full moon" in Welsh. I looked around at UWTSD, but I couldn't come to any conclusion. Here's a sentence for somebody to check over:

Croeso i'r Leuad Lond yng Nghymraeg!

Is there something wrong with this, or did I manage to get it right? (I also can't think what "full moon" is in Spanish, but this is obviously the wrong place for that. ) But anyway, is there some idiom for "full moon" that I don't know?

If you don't want me asking questions about how to figure out my website, please let me know and I'll stick to dogs under beds and garbage men.

[YngNghymru]

Lleuad Lawn or Lleuad Gyfan - both are fine.

[Llawygath]

Lleuad Lawn or Lleuad Gyfan - both are fine.

Thanks much. I was pretty tired of having my opening page say nothing but "Mae'r gath dew yn cysgu ar y ddôr" and all manner of things like that.

[Llawygath]

By the way, if anyone's interested in this, here's the main page for the Welsh section of Full Moon. It doesn't say a whole lot in that section (or any other) as yet, but we'll get there.

Edit: Fixed the busted link.