[Scottish Gaelic] Questions about pronunciation

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nighean-neonach
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Postby nighean-neonach » 2007-10-13, 11:34

Quevenois wrote:Depends on the dialect. I think they say [ɔX] in northern Lewis. Don't they?


Nope, not really.

@ Daniel: As I told you, my family was part Gaelic-speaking, and I'm involved with the language on an almost daily basis now. Don't worry, you'll catch up well enough with a little practice :)
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Postby Quevenois » 2007-10-13, 18:46

Because I heard that pronunciation from my Gaelic-speaking friend whose name was Coinneach.


Gaelic-speaking, ok, but was he a native speaker? 'Cause I am Gaelic-speaking as well, you see, but I'm not native nor fluent. :D

The [ɔ] in the last syllable sounds odd to me.


Listen to the songs of Christine Primrose or Màiri Smith, you'll hear how they pronounce their -ach.

Nope, not really.


Same answer, listen to these singers. I'm after listening to several songs sung by them, having a look at the lyrics at the same time: all endings in -ach and -achd have a vowel [ɔ], and never [ə] as it is in "standard" pronunciation.

Don't worry, you'll catch up well enough with a little practice


'S dòcha gum bithinn nas fileanta nam b'urrainn dhomh Gàidhlig a bhruidhinn a h-uile latha. Ach anns an àite am beil mi, chan eil neach aig am beil Gàidhlig. Cò ris am bruidhninn? Tha thu fortanach ma's urrainn dhiut a bruidhinn gu tric.

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Postby nighean-neonach » 2007-10-14, 8:52

Quevenois wrote:Same answer, listen to these singers.


See, I don't have to listen to some singers, I can listen to my Lewis friends :) Might be some have a tendency to say the "a" in "Coinneach" a bit darker, but I wouldn't transcribe it as [ɔ].
It's a minor question anyway, and Northern Lewis is just one of many dialects :)

'S dòcha gum bithinn nas fileanta nam b'urrainn dhomh Gàidhlig a bhruidhinn a h-uile latha. Ach anns an àite am beil mi, chan eil neach aig am beil Gàidhlig. Cò ris am bruidhninn? Tha thu fortanach ma's urrainn dhiut a bruidhinn gu tric.


B' urrainn dhut do chuid Ghàidhlig a chleachdadh air an eadar-lìon ceart gu leòr... a bheil Skype agad? Tha daoine gu leòr ann a bhitheas ga chleachdadh airson comhradh - luchd-ionnsachaidh agus daoine le Gàidhlig bho thùs.
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Postby Quevenois » 2007-10-14, 13:42

Might be some have a tendency to say the "a" in "Coinneach" a bit darker, but I wouldn't transcribe it as [ɔ].


That's the sound I hear, anyway. Maybe someone else would transcribe it more precisely in IPA.
Dè 'n fhuaim a th'ann ann an Leòdhas, ar leat fhèin?

B' urrainn dhut do chuid Ghàidhlig a chleachdadh air an eadar-lìon ceart gu leòr... a bheil Skype agad?


Chan eil. Agus tha mi ro-dhiùid ri bruidhinn air Skype ri neach nach eil aithne agam air, tha eagal orm :cry:

Ach an t-seachdain seo chaidh bhruidhinn mi ri Coinneach Cìr (saoilidh mi gum beil aithne agad air) air MSN (a' sgrìobhadh, mar sin) agus bha sin glè mhath.

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pronunciation of goldsmithing related words

Postby DrBrown » 2007-11-23, 2:19

Hi. I'm at the very very earliest stages of finally getting around to learning Gaelic. I'm a goldsmith and I wondered if someone could advise me on how to pronounce these goldsmithing related words.

smithy - Ceàrdach
hearth - Sòrn
goldsmith - Ceard-òir or òircheard
hammer - Òrd

Any help would be very much appreciated.

Regards

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Postby nighean-neonach » 2007-11-23, 8:52

It would be best for you to talk to someone. I'm awful at writing IPA, and most people don't know how to interpret it correctly anyway.
Do you have Skype or something?
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Postby Supreemio » 2007-11-23, 18:25

Quevenois can do IPA and is quite advanced in Gaidhlig, maybe he can do a recording or IPA for you.

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pronunciation of goldsmithing related words

Postby DrBrown » 2007-11-25, 6:25

Many thanks for your replies, nighean-neonach and Sneachta. I figure that understanding IPA will stand me in good stead in the long run, it just might take me a while though. I don't have Skype at the moment but it seems this might be something to consider. I'm probably best though to find a class/tutor if I really want to do this properly, aren't I?

Best regards

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Postby nighean-neonach » 2007-11-25, 12:07

If I remember correctly, there´s a man somewhere in your area who teaches Gaelic classes and whom you can also contact by phone about such pronunciation issues... I´ll search for his address when I´m back home tonight.
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pronunciation of 'spiaire', please?

Postby kr0m3 » 2008-12-11, 3:05

greetings!

can anyone give me the proper pronunciation of the Gaelic word for spy, i.e. 'spiaire'?

thank you in advance for your interest and assistance, have a fantastic day!
~k

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Re: pronunciation of 'spiaire', please?

Postby nighean-neonach » 2008-12-11, 16:13

That's not a Gaelic word at all. Do you mean the verb or the noun?
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Re: pronunciation of 'spiaire', please?

Postby kr0m3 » 2008-12-11, 18:45

nighean-neonach wrote:That's not a Gaelic word at all. Do you mean the verb or the noun?


:hmm:

actually, it is Gaelic. Irish Gaelic in fact, and perhaps therein lies the confusion.
I am looking for the pronunciation of the Gaelic word for spy (noun).
If the noun is different in Scot Gaelic, please do enlighten me.

Failing that, perhaps someone could tell me how they would pronounce it if it was Scot Gaelic?
I know that sounds a bit odd, but given the odd pronunciations in general when it comes to Gaelic, that might at least give me a hint...

**shrug**

~k

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Re: pronunciation of 'spiaire', please?

Postby Galloglaich » 2008-12-11, 18:55

Irish Gaelic and Highland Gaelic are different in pronounciation...not drastically, but different enough, as I found out at the weekend when some people in the audience thought I'd said I'd sing in Irish Gaelic (I actually just said 'Gaelic') and all but shouted out 'get this racist off the stage' :wink:

And there are quite a few words in Highland Gaelic for 'spy.'

Fear-foille is the one that seems more logical, since most professions that have roots in prehistory begin with the word for 'man,' such as fear-feachd and fear-cogaidh.
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Re: pronunciation of 'spiaire', please?

Postby kr0m3 » 2008-12-11, 19:10

thanks for that!

Are you saying that possibly it would be incorrect to use spiaire as a noun?
For instance, I have found links that translate Mordechai Vanunu's "i am your spy" (an excellent piece, btw) as "Is mise bhur spiaire".

Would this be appropriate in any variant of Gaelic? thanks again for the input... and could you possibly enlighten me on the pronunciation of spiaire?

kindly;
~k

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Re: pronunciation of 'spiaire', please?

Postby Galloglaich » 2008-12-11, 19:17

Any pronounciations which I tell you are probably wrong :wink:

I'm not a native speaker, but Nighean Neonach is, and I think Eoghan has heard the language spoken a lot more than I have. I have friends who are native speakers, but... :nope:

I think 'your' in Highland Gaelic is 'do,' but I know most of the small words change rather dramatically, depending on the situation.
The is mise, or 's mise, for short, is correct.

But I doubt that it is appropriate in Manx Gaelic. I think 'I am' in Manx is 'mish mow.'
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Re: pronunciation of 'spiaire', please?

Postby Eoghan » 2008-12-11, 23:14

Galloglaich wrote:Any pronounciations which I tell you are probably wrong :wink:

I'm not a native speaker, but Nighean Neonach is, and I think Eoghan has heard the language spoken a lot more than I have. I have friends who are native speakers, but... :nope:

I think 'your' in Highland Gaelic is 'do,' but I know most of the small words change rather dramatically, depending on the situation.
The is mise, or 's mise, for short, is correct.

But I doubt that it is appropriate in Manx Gaelic. I think 'I am' in Manx is 'mish mow.'


"bhur" is the formal or plural version of "do" and " Is mise bhur spiaire" is perfectly fine in Irish Gaelic, whereas it's not found in Gàidhlig. I guess "spiothair" is the closest Scottish Gaelic version of spy, but I would definately use fear-foille, or, if we're talking about a female spy, bean-foille... Foille means deceitful so a literal translation of I'm a spy would be "I'm a deceitful man" ;)

/ɪs mɪʃə wər færfoɪLə/ 'S mise bhur fear-foille

/ɪs mɪʃə wər spɪæ´rə/ is mise bhur spiaire
Image[flag=]sv[/flag] [flag=]en[/flag] [flag=]gd[/flag] [flag=]de[/flag][flag=]ga[/flag] [flag=]fr[/flag] [flag=]pt[/flag] [flag=]nl[/flag] [flag=]it[/flag] [flag=]no-nn[/flag] [flag=]fo[/flag]

Albeit the Scot in me is of the Western stock and the red of the Cairngorms, the heather and the Lewissian gneiss, the Viking in me was there when you uttered the first word of your leid.

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Re: pronunciation of 'spiaire', please?

Postby nighean-neonach » 2008-12-12, 0:46

Honestly, most native speakers would just use the English word :lol: I've never spoken about spies in Gaelic and I don't really know... there's "spiothair" sure enough, but it's a simple English loanword. I would understand "fear-foille" as a deceitful person, a traitor or a fraud, so that's maybe not what you want, depending on the context... do you mean "spy" in the sense of a secret service agent or something?

By the way I think it doesn't really make sense if questions here are answered by people who don't really have much Gaelic themselves... :roll:

About the "your" thing, it depends of course on whether you mean singular or plural, singular is "do" and plural is "(bh)ur". This seems to be one of the things many English native speakers never get used to, that there is actually a difference between the two - not just in Gaelic, but in many languages :)
In many cases though, you can't use the possessive pronouns at all. So it would be useful to know a bit more about the context here, if there is any.
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Re: pronunciation of 'spiaire', please?

Postby kr0m3 » 2008-12-12, 14:16

thanks for all the replies.... everyone certainly has helped me out so far... let me see if i can be a little less confusing on what i am looking for:

to answer nighean-neonach's question:
i am hoping for the text and pronunciation of the Gaelic (i assume Gàidhlig, at this point) word for 'spy' as in; the noun used to describe what could be termed a secret-agent or infiltrator. The term isn't meant to be derogatory, simply descriptive (as in the previously mentioned example; 'i am your spy'). If I can pronounce it without sounding like too much of a git, then mission is accomplished.

:)

thanks again for all of the replies. If nothing else, I am certainly learning a lot!
~k

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Re: pronunciation of 'spiaire', please?

Postby nighean-neonach » 2008-12-12, 15:06

I would possibly use "neach-coimhid" / "fear-coimhid" then, that would mean a watchperson or someone observing someone.
About IPA, I'm just too lazy for that, sorry, apart from that I expect people to have a very general idea of the pronunciation of a certain language when asking for such translations... ;)
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Re: pronunciation of 'spiaire', please?

Postby Eoghan » 2008-12-12, 15:13

nighean-neonach wrote:I would possibly use "neach-coimhid" / "fear-coimhid" then, that would mean a watchperson or someone observing someone.
About IPA, I'm just too lazy for that, sorry, apart from that I expect people to have a very general idea of the pronunciation of a certain language when asking for such translations... ;)


Hm... I would probably understand fear-coimhid more as eg. a talent scout than a spy... Maybe neach-brath is better if you really don't want to use fear-foille. But to be honest I agree with your first post Nighean-Neònach, most would indeed just use the English word... "'s mise bhur spy"
Image[flag=]sv[/flag] [flag=]en[/flag] [flag=]gd[/flag] [flag=]de[/flag][flag=]ga[/flag] [flag=]fr[/flag] [flag=]pt[/flag] [flag=]nl[/flag] [flag=]it[/flag] [flag=]no-nn[/flag] [flag=]fo[/flag]

Albeit the Scot in me is of the Western stock and the red of the Cairngorms, the heather and the Lewissian gneiss, the Viking in me was there when you uttered the first word of your leid.


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