księżyc - Gaelainn

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby silmeth » 2019-01-04, 18:26

I have the book, they definitely aim at caighdeánized spelling (including writing Gaeilge, dearthair, an-mhaith instead of ana-mhaith etc.). But afaik the grammatical forms, idioms, and most definitely the pronunciation taught, are Munster (but it’s not conservative Cork Munster like in Peadar Ua Laoghaire’s books, or in the TYI 1961 – I think it might try to teach more modern contemporary Munster Irish spoken in Dingle? But I am guessing here).

Anyway, I have made a pdf with all the reading texts from the book and vocabulary (the vocab translated to English), and posted it to the Facebook Irish learning group Foireann Gaeilge.

I might upload it somewhere else, or share it otherwise, but I don’t know how ok that’d be copyright-wise. I myself wouldn’t mind sharing it, though, as the book is out of print for many years anyway, and afaik never been available outside Poland.

I've also started making a Memrise course based on the exercises from the book, but have stopped for the time being. I hope I’ll get back to it, though.
Last edited by silmeth on 2019-01-04, 19:12, edited 2 times in total.
polszczyzna jest moją mową ojczystą (pl), Is í Gaelainn na Mumhan atá á foghlaim agam (ga) ((ga-M)), mám, myslím, dobrou znalost češtiny, rozumím a něco mluvím (cs), Jeg lærer meg bokmål på Duolingo (no-nb) (og eg ville lære nynorsk ein gong (no-nn))

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2019-01-04, 18:32

You just had to dangle that in front of me, didn't you?

Could I get a copy?

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby silmeth » 2019-01-04, 18:42

Well, I think I might just upload it here, if somebody has a problem with it (I don’t think the remaining living author would object, especially since it’s only the reading texts part, the academic publisher probably wouldn’t too…), I’ll remove it.

an-ghaeilge.pdf


BTW, what kind of the book’s edition did you acquire, is it an older official one, or were there bootleg editions copied on a typewriter? Cause my copy (the second, and afaik last, edition, from 2005) has much nicer professional typesetting.

An Ghaeilge 40_1.jpg

An Ghaeilge 40_2.jpg
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Last edited by silmeth on 2019-01-04, 19:31, edited 1 time in total.
polszczyzna jest moją mową ojczystą (pl), Is í Gaelainn na Mumhan atá á foghlaim agam (ga) ((ga-M)), mám, myslím, dobrou znalost češtiny, rozumím a něco mluvím (cs), Jeg lærer meg bokmål på Duolingo (no-nb) (og eg ville lære nynorsk ein gong (no-nn))

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2019-01-04, 18:57

It appears to be a first edition.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby silmeth » 2019-01-05, 15:27

linguoboy wrote:chuige an bóthar […] which reek of Connacht to me.


I think you misunderstood the phrase here. The full clause is chonaic sé chuige an bóthar aníos Cáit, and IMO it means ‘he saw Cáit [walking] towards him up the road’, Cáit here certainly is not going to the road, so chuige here is just conjugated chun, and not related to the road. An bóthar is used as accusative, ‘by the road’.

So I don’t think there is anything specifically Connacht there. ;-)

Also, as the basic form of the preposition, the book teaches chun, not chuig(e).
polszczyzna jest moją mową ojczystą (pl), Is í Gaelainn na Mumhan atá á foghlaim agam (ga) ((ga-M)), mám, myslím, dobrou znalost češtiny, rozumím a něco mluvím (cs), Jeg lærer meg bokmål på Duolingo (no-nb) (og eg ville lære nynorsk ein gong (no-nn))

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2019-01-07, 14:16

I'm curious. Was there ever any audio to go with the Munster textbook An Ghaeilge?

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby silmeth » 2019-01-07, 14:29

Unfortunately not. I think even the preface says something about it, that the transcriptions and pronunciation guides in the book are helpful but they are not enough, and that one also needs a teacher and native recordings to properly learn pronunciation (when I’m home in the evening I might edit this post to cite a proper passage), but the book itself, although recognizing the need for some, never had any recordings.
polszczyzna jest moją mową ojczystą (pl), Is í Gaelainn na Mumhan atá á foghlaim agam (ga) ((ga-M)), mám, myslím, dobrou znalost češtiny, rozumím a něco mluvím (cs), Jeg lærer meg bokmål på Duolingo (no-nb) (og eg ville lære nynorsk ein gong (no-nn))

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2019-01-07, 14:38

That's rather unfortunate.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby An Lon Dubh » 2019-02-20, 7:48

Just saw this now. It's essentially the way a middle aged person from Corca Dhuibhne would talk. It's not deep older Munster, e.g. datives, genitives after chun and other features, but it's not like younger speech with the atrophied genitive and more Caighdeán verb forms.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2019-05-29, 20:38

Dia dhuit!

I've been slowly reviewing and keeping my Irish alive.

So far I've just been reviewing my vocabulary and brushing the dust off. I hope to review some grammar this weekend. Also I think I need to review pronunciation and get back into the rhythm of the language.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2019-05-29, 20:45

Óró sé do bheatha abhaile anois ar theacht an tsamhraidh!
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2020-05-11, 22:57

So, I've been reviewing my Irish (again), and have made it a good few lessons into TYI again.

Anyway, I had a question about, well, questions. :lol:

So in Lesson VI the past tense forms of are given. My question relates to the particles, and their usage. I was expecting ar to be used to form questions, but I notice that the book uses an. Is this a special case with the forms of , where it always uses an and , regardless of tense?

For example, one of the questions in Exercise 14 is:
An rabhais ag caint leis?
I was expecting ar rabhais here.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby kevin » 2020-05-11, 23:06

Yes, some of the irregular verbs do this (using present tense particles even for the past), and bí is one of them.

You can expect to see the same from abair, déan, faigh, feic and téigh, though be prepared for some dialectal variation that would include more irregular verbs in this list.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2020-05-11, 23:38

księżycowy wrote:So in Lesson VI the past tense forms of are given. My question relates to the particles, and their usage. I was expecting ar to be used to form questions, but I notice that the book uses an. Is this a special case with the forms of , where it always uses an and , regardless of tense?

The short answer is "yes". And it's not the only verb that behaves this way; I think it's true of all irregulars with a separate set of dependent forms, e.g. chím/feicim, gheibhim/faighim behave the same way in the past tenses.

If it helps to remember, the reason is that ar represents a contraction of an with the historical perfective prefix ro. I'm pretty sure TYI discusses this explicitly at some point. This ro was incorporated into the dependent stem of atáim, so *ar raibh would essentially be *an ro ro bhí.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby silmeth » 2020-05-12, 9:09

Also notice that the /r/ from ro- might appear in other places of the verb too, because the perfect particle ro in early Old Irish was placed always just before the stem of a verb (and after other particles/preverbs).

Eg. non-Munster rinne (older do-rinne) comes from OIr. do·rigni (dí- + -ro- + -gní) while dependent an ndearna, ní dhearna from OIr. in ndernus, ní dernad, etc. (in/ní + dí- + -ro- + -gni-).

Later r- started to be inserted before the stressed vowel, and even later yet it was moved to the beginning of a word, as the first preverb (and finally merged with the particles , in, co into modern níor, ar, gur, etc.). But a few verbs with r(o) infixed in funny places survived, like rinne, dearna.

But in this case Munster leveled all forms to more regular (do) dhein, níor dhein, ar dhein.
polszczyzna jest moją mową ojczystą (pl), Is í Gaelainn na Mumhan atá á foghlaim agam (ga) ((ga-M)), mám, myslím, dobrou znalost češtiny, rozumím a něco mluvím (cs), Jeg lærer meg bokmål på Duolingo (no-nb) (og eg ville lære nynorsk ein gong (no-nn))

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2020-05-12, 14:46

Thanks guys!

linguoboy wrote:If it helps to remember, the reason is that ar represents a contraction of an with the historical perfective prefix ro. I'm pretty sure TYI discusses this explicitly at some point. This ro was incorporated into the dependent stem of atáim, so *ar raibh would essentially be *an ro ro bhí.

So, would that mean that it's ar bhíos but an rabhas? And is this true of other dependent forms? Thus ar chonac and an bhfada?

And TYI does explain the ro- prefix in the next lesson, which I'll probably get to either later this week or next week.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby silmeth » 2020-05-12, 15:02

księżycowy wrote:So, would that mean that it's ar bhíos but an rabhas? And is this true of other dependent forms? Thus ar chonac and an bhfada?


No, you cannot have the independent form after the particle an or ar, you cannot say anything like ar chonac? or ar bhíos? just as you cannot say an dtáim? or anything like that.

You use the dependent forms faca, raibh, fuil after interrogative particle: an bhfaca?, an raibh?, an bhfuil?; and because the irregular forms historically already had the perfective ro in them, you use the regular an and not the past ar with them.
polszczyzna jest moją mową ojczystą (pl), Is í Gaelainn na Mumhan atá á foghlaim agam (ga) ((ga-M)), mám, myslím, dobrou znalost češtiny, rozumím a něco mluvím (cs), Jeg lærer meg bokmål på Duolingo (no-nb) (og eg ville lære nynorsk ein gong (no-nn))

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2020-05-12, 16:04

I just realised that. Dur on me. :silly:

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2020-05-20, 23:02

I'm curious, for Exercise 17 No. 12, the correct answer given is:
Ar thit an páiste isteach insan uisce.

Couldn't that also be:
Ar thit an páiste isteach sa uisce.

I'm just making sure there isn't a reason the authors wrote insan, rather than sa.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2020-05-21, 2:20

księżycowy wrote:I'm curious, for Exercise 17 No. 12, the correct answer given is:
Ar thit an páiste isteach insan uisce.

Couldn't that also be:
Ar thit an páiste isteach sa uisce.

I'm just making sure there isn't a reason the authors wrote insan, rather than sa.

It could be san, but not sa in this case because uisce starts with a vowel. (I'm not sure if they were being deliberately archaic by including insan in some of the examples or if it was still found among older dialect speakers at the time TYI was published.)
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