księżyc - Gaelainn

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-06, 18:39

I'm curious of the words that have <t> added before an <s>. For example tsagairt in the sentence Tá capall na tsagairt bacach is tsagairt pronounced /tɑgərt/. I don't hazard to think it's pronounced as /t͡sɑgərt/.

As <s> is not liable to eclipsis, is this like an <h> being added to words that begin with a vowel under some circumstances, or is something else going on here?

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2018-02-06, 18:56

księżycowy wrote:As <s> is not liable to eclipsis, is this like an <h> being added to words that begin with a vowel under some circumstances, or is something else going on here?

No, it's a different phenom entirely. The proto-Celtic form of the article in this circumstance is *sindī. So what happened is that the /s/, being intervocalic, lenited to /h/. Then then final vowel was lost and the /d/ coalesced with the /h/ to yield /t/. So a more etymologically accurate way to write this might be *and shagairt, but that's more confusing (and more letters) than writing an tsagairt.
Last edited by linguoboy on 2018-02-06, 18:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby kevin » 2018-02-06, 18:57

Yes, the "s" is silent when you get a t-prefix.

This is what you want to read: http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/sindos.htm

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2018-02-06, 19:03

kevin wrote:This is what you want to read: http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/sindos.htm

N'fheadar an tsaol go raibh an leathanach san ann! Go raibh maith agat, a Chaoimhín!
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-07, 18:04

kevin wrote:Yes, the "s" is silent when you get a t-prefix.

This is what you want to read: http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/sindos.htm

Go raibh maith agat, a chaoimhín!

I was sure I asked this before (though the search function seems to think otherwise), and I can recall it having something to do with ba (as in the copula), but what is dob again?

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2018-02-07, 18:10

księżycowy wrote:I was sure I asked this before (though the search function seems to think otherwise), and I can recall it having something to do with ba (as in the copula), but what is dob again?

Do + ba.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-07, 19:15

Ah, right. Go raibh maith agat!

I've added it to my Anki deck.
Speaking of Anki, seeing as TYI doesn't present the possessive forms of i (well not in table form), and I've ran into forms like inár in sentences, I might as well as those as well.

From what I gather from GnaG they should be the following for Munster:
im (i mo?)
id (i do?)
ina
inár
in bhur
ina
Right?

I'm inclined to think Munster prefers im and id over i mo and i do, but concidering my luck lately with assumptions... :P

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2018-02-07, 20:11

księżycowy wrote:I'm inclined to think Munster prefers im and id over i mo and i do, but concidering my luck lately with assumptions... :P

No, you're quite correct. Incidentally, in bhur is pronounced inúr, though I don't think I've ever seen it spelled that way in a vernacular text.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-07, 20:14

That's 1 for 3. :lol:

Speaking of pronunciation, from our conversation the other day on <bh>, I read (what I thought were) the relevant paragraphs of Ó Cuív yesterday, and it was quite interesting. I read it for both dh/gh and bh/mh.

I'm kinda glad that TYI notes the older spellings of some things.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-08, 15:37

Going back to dob, I'm curious how it comes about. Is it because it's the preferred form over b' in Munster, or is something else going on? If I understand correctly it only shows up before a vowel, or is that incorrect? I thought that's what GnaG said anyway.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2018-02-08, 15:43

księżycowy wrote:Going back to dob, I'm curious how it comes about. Is it because it's the preferred form over b' in Munster, or is something else going on? If I understand correctly it only shows up before a vowel, or is that incorrect? I thought that's what GnaG said anyway.

I'm pretty sure it's just used where the CO has b'. Have it look at these examples: https://www.gaois.ie/g3m/en/?txt=dob.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-08, 15:53

That was certainly what I thought after looking at GnaG.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-13, 23:03

This has been burning a whole in my head for a little while now. :P
How is bhíodh (as in the form of ) pronounced?
/v´iːə/ or /v´iː/ are my best guesses.
I've tried looking at the Cork Irish site, but didn't seem to find anything. and TYI don't give pronunciations for the forms of .
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2018-02-13, 23:04

księżycowy wrote:This has been burning a whole in my head for a little while now. :P
How is bhíodh (as in the form of tá) pronounced?
/v´iːə/ or /v´iː/ are my best guesses.

:whistle:

https://corkirish.wordpress.com/verb-conjugation/taim/
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-13, 23:24

I must have missed that somehow.
Go raibh maith agat!

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2018-02-14, 4:46

księżycowy wrote:I must have missed that somehow.
Go raibh maith agat!

It's not just bhíodh, this exceptional pronunciation applies to the 3s.IMPERF ending -(e)adh in general. (See Ó Siadhail, p. 71) The past impersonal ending -(e)adh, however, is pronounced /əg/ except in Kerry. TYI mentions this (p. 109), though curiously not the /əx/ pronunciation of the imperfect/past habitual. So I don't think you missed it actually.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2018-02-14, 10:04

I meant missed it on the Cork site. I knew it wasn't in TYI. Out of curiosity I'll have a read of that section of Ó Siadhail.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-19, 0:03

So, I'm finding that my Irish reading is alright, but my spoken/listening skills could use some work.

Listening is easy enough, but I'm curious what suggestions anyone has for practicing spoken skills. More specifically, are there any specific things you do to practice speaking a language outside of having a conversation with someone?

It's kind of hard to find people around here to have conversations in Irish with. :P

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2018-03-19, 2:52

Ciarán and I were talking about this in another thread. One thing we both do is narrate while we're strolling along or whatever. Try to describe what you're doing and what you're seeing--out loud, if you're not too self-conscious about it. Take a break every now and then to check if you got something right or to look up a word you needed but couldn't think of.

I also sometimes try simultaneously translating the dialogue in something I'm watching that isn't too engaging otherwise. Again, this helps get you used to responding in real time plus it incorporates phrases that you're sure to need in conversation.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2018-03-19, 9:21

Go raibh maith agat! :)


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