księżyc - Gaelainn

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-24, 14:34

So conjunctions decline for tense?
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-08-24, 14:38

księżycowy wrote:So conjunctions decline for tense?

They do when they contain a relative particle.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-24, 15:36

Ok, so after checking on GnaG it looks like it's sar + a/ar for Munster? (sul + a/ar in CO)

So present tense - sara
Past tense - sarar

Is it possible to have this in the future tense?
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-08-24, 15:40

księżycowy wrote:Ok, so after checking on GnaG it looks like it's sar + a/ar for Munster? (sul + a/ar in CO)

So present tense - sara
Past tense - sarar

Is it possible to have this in the future tense?

Absolutely. From Ó Dónaill:
Beidh fiannaíocht air sula mbeidh sé críochnaithe. "It will take ages before it is finished."
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-24, 20:44

I figured that would be possible, but wanted to ask to be on the safe side.

In other news, I'm going through one of the stories in the readers I got a few weeks ago, and one of them is tripping me up a little (mostly because it contains stuff I don't think I know yet):
Thugas níos mó mine di.
Something like "I gave big meals to her/it"?

I was trying to get the gist of the usage of níos from pg 121 in TYI, but I can't say it was clear.
Di is also confusing me a bit. I know it's either do or de + the object pronoun í, but how should I ideally translate it here?
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby kevin » 2017-08-24, 20:53

"níos" forms the comparative, so "níos mó" would at least be "bigger" rather than just "big". But if it were an attributive adjective, it wouldn't be before the noun, and the noun wouldn't be in the genitive case. So in this case it means "more".

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-08-24, 21:30

księżycowy wrote:In other news, I'm going through one of the stories in the readers I got a few weeks ago, and one of them is tripping me up a little (mostly because it contains stuff I don't think I know yet):
Thugas níos mó mine di.
Something like "I gave big meals to her/it"?

Min means "meal" in the sense of "flour". ("Meal" in the sense of "serving of food" is béile, a borrowing of English meal with reanalysis of the initial.)

księżycowy wrote:Di is also confusing me a bit. I know it's either do or de + the object pronoun í, but how should I ideally translate it here?

"her", I imagine, though it would help to see the context.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-24, 22:22

I had actually typed this up and saved it as a draft with the intention of posting it later. Here's the story in full:

An Chearc
'Is mise Máire. Bím ag ar an bhfeirm.'
'Seo é Dan, m'fhear céile. Bíonn sé ag obair ar an bhfeirm.'
'Tá fiche bó againn. Crúnn Dan iad gach lá. Is maith leis a bheith ag obair ar an bhfeirm.'
'Tá cearc agam. Cearc dhubh is ea í. Beireann sí ubh gach lá.'
'Is maith le m'fhear céile ubh don bhricfeast.'
'Is maith liom ubh don bhricfeast chomh maith.'
'Bíonn ubh ag m'fhear céile gach maidin. Ní bhíonn aon ubh agamsa.'
'Ba mhaith liom go mbeadh dhá ubh ag an gcearc.'
'Thugas níos mó mine di.'
'D'ith sí an mhin, ach níor rug sí dhá ubh dom.'
'Is amhlaidh a chuaigh sí i raimhre agus stad sí den bhreith.'
'Anois ní bhíonn aon ubh ag Dan ná agamsa don bhricfeast.'
Last edited by księżycowy on 2017-08-24, 22:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-24, 22:24

linguoboy wrote:"her", I imagine, though it would help to see the context.

I was actually asking more about the 'to' in my translation, rather than the pronoun.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-08-25, 1:42

księżycowy wrote:
linguoboy wrote:"her", I imagine, though it would help to see the context.

I was actually asking more about the 'to' in my translation, rather than the pronoun.

I mean you could equally well go with either "I gave her more meal" or "I gave more meal to her". The former sounds more natural IMD but I imagine other speakers feel differently. Irish only has the one possibility, since do is mandatory with indirect objects.
Last edited by linguoboy on 2017-08-25, 14:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-25, 9:46

Wait, isn't thugas the 1 sg. past? Not plural?
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby An Lon Dubh » 2017-08-26, 9:25

Yes it's singular.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-26, 9:28

Linguoboy was sneaky and just edited his post. :P
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-27, 19:43

Ok, as I've finished my translation and also transcribed this into IPA (I was also going to gloss it, but never got a chance), here it all is.

By way of a key/explanation:
For the IPA, I used a similar system to that used in the glossary of Teach Yourself Irish by Dillion & Ó Cróinín. I just swapped a few symbols (such as splitting the symbol /i/ as used in TYI into /i/ and /ɪ/ in my IPA system). I only marked stress when it wasn't on the first syllable. I consistently (perhaps too consistently :P ) marked slender consonants with /´/, marked after the slender consonant. I did not mark broad consonants.
I used the glossary, the Cork Irish dictionary, and the slow audio recording to make the transcription.

For the translation, words/phrases between the [] are my additions to help the flow, not found in the original Irish. Words/phrases between () are in the Irish, but I felt were unnecessary in the English.
Items between {lit.} note literal phrasing of the Irish.

EDIT: Fixed the IPA transcription and translation, as per Linguoboy's suggestions and help.

Original:

An Chearc
'Is mise Máire. Bím ag ar an bhfeirm.'
'Seo é Dan, m'fhear céile. Bíonn sé ag obair ar an bhfeirm.'
'Tá fiche bó againn. Crúnn Dan iad gach lá. Is maith leis a bheith ag obair ar an bhfeirm.'
'Tá cearc agam. Cearc dhubh is ea í. Beireann sí ubh gach lá.'
'Is maith le m'fhear céile ubh don bhricfeast.'
'Is maith liom ubh don bhricfeast chomh maith.'
'Bíonn ubh ag m'fhear céile gach maidin. Ní bhíonn aon ubh agamsa.'
'Ba mhaith liom go mbeadh dhá ubh ag an gcearc.'
'Thugas níos mó mine di.'
'D'ith sí an mhin, ach níor rug sí dhá ubh dom.'
'Is amhlaidh a chuaigh sí i raimhre agus stad sí den bhreith.'
'Anois ní bhíonn aon ubh ag Dan ná agamsa don bhricfeast.'

IPA Transcription:

ən χ´ark
ɪs m´iʃə mɑːr´ɪ. b´iːm´ ɪg obɪr´ er ən v´er´ɪm.
ʃo eː dan, m´ar c´eːlɪ. biːən ʃeː ɪg obɪr´ er ən v´er´ɪm.
tɑː fihɪ boː əˈguŋ. kruːn dan iəd gaχ lɑː. ɪs mɑ l´eʃ ə v´e ɪg obɪr´ er ən v´er´ɪm.
tɑː k´ark əˈgum. k´ark ɣuv ɪʃ a iː. b´er´ən ʃiː uv gaχ lɑː.
ɪs mɑ l´e m´ar k´eːlɪ uv don v´r´ik´f´ast.
ɪs mɑ l´ʊm uv dən v´r´ik´f´ast χoː mɑ.
biːən uv ɪg m´ar k´eːl´ɪ gaχ mɑd´ɪn. niː v´iːən en uv əˈgumsə.
ba vɑ l´om gu m´eχ ɣɑː uv ɪg ən g´ark.
hugəs n´iːs moː m´inɪ di.
dih ʃiː ən vin, aχ n´iːr rug ʃiː ɣɑː uv dəm.
ɪs ɑulɪg a χuɪg ʃiː i. riːr´ɪ əgus stad ʃiː d´ɪn v´r´e.
anɪʃ niː viːən en uv ɪg dan nɑː əˈgumsə dən v´r´ik´f´ast.


Translation:

The Hen
I'm Máire. I work on a farm.
This is Dan, my husband. He [also] works on the farm.
We have twenty cows. Dan milks them every day. He likes working on the farm.
I have a hen. It is a black hen. She lays an egg every day.
My husband likes eggs for breakfast.
I like eggs for breakfast too. {lit. as well}
My husband has an egg every morning. I usually don't have any eggs [myself].
I like it when the hen lays two eggs.
I gave her more meal.
She ate the meal, but she didn't lay two eggs (for me).
In fact she got fat, and stopped laying [eggs]. {lit. she went in thickness/fatness}
Now there aren't any eggs for Dan or myself for breakfast.

Summary:

An Chearc
ən χ´ark
The Hen

'Is mise Máire. Bím ag ar an bhfeirm.'
ɪs m´iʃə mɑːr´ɪ. b´iːm´ ɪg obɪr´ er ən v´er´ɪm.
I'm Máire. I work on a farm.

'Seo é Dan, m'fhear céile. Bíonn sé ag obair ar an bhfeirm.'
ʃo eː dan, m´ar c´eːlɪ. biːən ʃeː ɪg obɪr´ er ən v´er´ɪm.
This is Dan, my husband. He [also] works on the farm.

'Tá fiche bó againn. Crúnn Dan iad gach lá. Is maith leis a bheith ag obair ar an bhfeirm.'
tɑː fihɪ boː əˈguŋ. kruːn dan iəd gaχ lɑː. ɪs mɑ l´eʃ ə v´e ɪg obɪr´ er ən v´er´ɪm.
We have twenty cows. Dan milks them every day. He likes working on the farm.

'Tá cearc agam. Cearc dhubh is ea í. Beireann sí ubh gach lá.'
tɑː k´ark əˈgum. k´ark ɣuv ɪʃ a iː. b´er´ən ʃiː uv gaχ lɑː.
I have a hen. It is a black hen. She lays an egg every day.

'Is maith le m'fhear céile ubh don bhricfeast.'
ɪs mɑ l´e m´ar k´eːlɪ uv dən v´r´ik´ˈf´ast.
My husband likes eggs for breakfast.

'Is maith liom ubh don bhricfeast chomh maith.'
ɪs mɑ l´om uv don v´r´ik´ˈf´ast χoː mɑ.
I like eggs for breakfast too.

'Bíonn ubh ag m'fhear céile gach maidin. Ní bhíonn aon ubh agamsa.'
biːən uv ɪg m´ar k´eːl´ɪ gaχ mɑd´ɪn. niː v´iːən en uv əˈgumsə.
My husband has an egg every morning. I usually don't have any eggs [myself].

'Ba mhaith liom go mbeadh dhá ubh ag an gcearc.'
ba vɑ l´ʊm gə m´eχ ɣɑː uv ɪg ən g´ark.
I like it when the hen lays two eggs.

'Thugas níos mó mine di.'
hugəs n´iːs moː m´inɪ di.
I gave her more meal.

'D'ith sí an mhin, ach níor rug sí dhá ubh dom.'
dih ʃiː ən vin, aχ n´iːr rug ʃiː ɣɑː uv dəm.
She ate the meal, but she didn't lay two eggs (for me).

'Is amhlaidh a chuaigh sí i raimhre agus stad sí den bhreith.'
ɪs ɑulɪg a χuɪg ʃiː i. riːr´ɪ əgus stad ʃiː d´ɪn v´r´e.
In fact she got fat, and stopped laying [eggs].

'Anois ní bhíonn aon ubh ag Dan ná agamsa don bhricfeast.'
anɪʃ niː viːən en uv ɪg dan nɑː əˈgumsə dən v´r´ik´ˈf´ast.
Now there aren't any eggs for Dan or myself for breakfast.
Last edited by księżycowy on 2017-08-28, 13:30, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-08-28, 2:26

Do you really hear an as [ʊn̪ˠ] rather than [ən̪ˠ]? I find that mildly surprising.

Also, to your ear, Máire has the same stressed vowel as maith?

księżycowy wrote:k´ark ɣuv ɪs a iː. b´er´ən ʃiː uv gaχ lɑː.

Huh. No assimilation of is here?

księżycowy wrote:v´r´ik´f´ast.

Ó Cuív actually lists bricfeast as one of a small number of exceptions (along with tobac) which violates general Munster stress rules by having final rather than initial stress.

księżycowy wrote:'Is maith liom ubh don bhricfeast chomh maith.'
ɪs mɑ l´om uv don v´r´ik´f´ast χoː mɑ.
I like eggs for breakfast too.

(Or "an egg" if you're concerned about cleaving as close to the original as feasible.)

I would have expected [lʲʊ̟m] for liom and [d̪ˠən̪ˠ] for don.

księżycowy wrote:'Bíonn ubh ag m'fhear céile gach maidin. Ní bhíonn aon ubh agamsa.'
My husband has eggs every morning. I usually don't have eggs [myself].

Again, I think the singular makes more sense, since the implication seems to be that she only gets an egg for breakfast on those days when the hen lays two. So Dan never gets more than one egg and she gets one at most.

księżycowy wrote:'Ba mhaith liom go mbeadh dhá ubh ag an gcearc.'
ba vɑ l´om gu m´eχ ɣɑː uv ɪg un g´ark.

Again, [gʊ] rather than [gə]?

księżycowy wrote:'Is amhlaidh a chuaigh sí i raimhre agus stad sí den bhreith.'
And so she got fat, and stopped laying [eggs].

Although amhlaidh can correspond to "so", I think the construction is amhlaidh is better translated as "The fact (of the matter) is", "in fact", "actually", etc.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-28, 13:16

linguoboy wrote:Do you really hear an as [ʊn̪ˠ] rather than [ən̪ˠ]? I find that mildly surprising.

I actually just stole that from the glossary of TYI. Based on the recordings it sounds more like /ən/.
I probably sound have gone with how I heard it, rather then with the glossary rendering. :P See below.

Also, to your ear, Máire has the same stressed vowel as maith?

Yes. Both sound very much like /ɑ(ː)/ to me on the recording.

księżycowy wrote:k´ark ɣuv ɪs a iː. b´er´ən ʃiː uv gaχ lɑː.

Huh. No assimilation of is here?

Keep in mind I was mainly using the slower speed recording in drafting this. Then again, I checked both speeds, and there isn't any noticable assimilation. It sounds kind of like /ɪʃ/ to me though, now that I listen a few more times. Unless that's what you meant.

księżycowy wrote:v´r´ik´f´ast.

Ó Cuív actually lists bricfeast as one of a small number of exceptions (along with tobac) which violates general Munster stress rules by having final rather than initial stress.

I forgot to check the stress on this one, so that was my fault.

księżycowy wrote:'Is maith liom ubh don bhricfeast chomh maith.'
ɪs mɑ l´om uv don v´r´ik´f´ast χoː mɑ.
I like eggs for breakfast too.

(Or "an egg" if you're concerned about cleaving as close to the original as feasible.)

I would have expected [lʲʊ̟m] for liom and [d̪ˠən̪ˠ] for don.

I was trying to put it into idiomatic English, rather then closely following the Irish. Or at least as best as I could. As for the translation of eggs vs. egg, see below.

And those are better IPA transcriptions for <liom> and <don>. TYI strikes again.

księżycowy wrote:'Bíonn ubh ag m'fhear céile gach maidin. Ní bhíonn aon ubh agamsa.'
My husband has eggs every morning. I usually don't have eggs [myself].

Again, I think the singular makes more sense, since the implication seems to be that she only gets an egg for breakfast on those days when the hen lays two. So Dan never gets more than one egg and she gets one at most.

That's a good point, I hadn't thought of that before. It seems I mixed up line 4 with line 8. Oops.

księżycowy wrote:'Ba mhaith liom go mbeadh dhá ubh ag an gcearc.'
ba vɑ l´om gu m´eχ ɣɑː uv ɪg un g´ark.

Again, [gʊ] rather than [gə]?

As with the other IPA suggestions, I'll defer to you. TYI seems to be a bit hyper-correct in regards to some of the IPA transcriptions. I'm not the best with IPA, so I did lean on it a good bit to make the transcription. I thought it would make for a good challenge though, and help me to further deepen my knowledge of the orthography.

księżycowy wrote:'Is amhlaidh a chuaigh sí i raimhre agus stad sí den bhreith.'
And so she got fat, and stopped laying [eggs].

Although amhlaidh can correspond to "so", I think the construction is amhlaidh is better translated as "The fact (of the matter) is", "in fact", "actually", etc.

That's good to know. It was one of the few places I had a little trouble translating.
Although I think it came out well in the end, line 6 gave me a brief pause thanks to the two maith being present.

As always, thanks for the help! :D
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-09-07, 15:55

So, I made an attempt at translating "I don't believe in God, but I believe in a higher power" in the translation forum:

Ní chreidim i nDia, ach creidim i neach osnádúrtha.
I'm fairly confident in my grammar, but is there a better alternative for "higher power"? My translation is more like "a spiritual being" or something....
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-09-07, 16:03

ardchumhacht
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-09-07, 16:08

Aha! Thanks!
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-09-08, 20:55

Just saw the corrected version. I has the alternative form in before a vowel, e.g. i gcóiste vs in eitleán.
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