księżyc - Gaelainn

[An Lon Dubh]

Ní foláir do na caoirigh go bhfuil aoire acu.
Am I on the right track for "Sheep need a shepherd"?

I'm not familiar with the "ní foláir" construction. GnaG mentions it only with a verbal noun construction, not with a "go" clause, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong. I suppose you could change it into a VN construction like Ní foláir do na caoirigh aoire a bheith acu

Ní foláir is very common in Munster, with a variant ní foláir nó. I'll make a longer post about this when I get the chance.

[kevin]

You tricked me with Ulster!

And here I thought you were learning CO.

I don't want to completely derail the original thread, so I'm continuing here...

So normally I do use the CO when writing things, especially if I know that other people who prefer other dialects are reading it. It's also the variety I'm most familiar with. But the CO is only a written standard and it allows for choices here and there, so to make it a real language, you have to add something else. In my case, I've been in Donegal a few times and so that's the dialect that influenced my Irish the most (mostly pronunciation, but also some grammar and word choices).

I wouldn't say that I'm using real Ulster Irish, but generally I do use its pronunciation and of course, for common phrases like "please"/"you're welcome" you're more likely to pick up the local version than for other things. "CO influenced by Ulster Irish" (and only partially correct) is probably the most accurate way to describe my Irish.

[księżycowy]

That's basically what I expected. I know the the CO allows for regional input, shall we say.

As I've stated many times, I'm very curious to learn the differences between the dialects (and CO). Not that I'm asking you to do that for me. Just throwing that out there. For the time being, Munster has my undivided Gaeilge attention.

[kevin]

I would be happy to help you with that, but I think actual dialectal differences are mostly just picked up with actual exposure to different dialects. Of course, systematically learning some of the fundamental sound changes between the three major dialects isn't that hard.

As far as the Caighdeán is concerned, the allowed variation is limited enough to learn at least most of it relatively easily. I think the most visible points are that you can choose between synthetic and analytic in many verb forms (and going from the synthetic Munster forms to analytic ones should be a lot easier than the other way round) and which initial mutations are caused by the dative singular article after which preposition (Munster eclipses after almost all prepositions + "an", Ulster lenites consistently, the primary standard forms eclipse for most prepositions and lenite for some).

I think you mentioned before that you look up things in GnaG occasionally. It often mentions how things differ in the dialects. If you don't skip these parts, but just read them, you'll already pick up many differences over time.

[księżycowy]

I don't mean to suggest that learning the dialectal differences between them would be difficult. Simply that I wish to focus on Munster more than any other dialect, or on CO. I fully expect to study these differences as I expose myself more and more to Irish, and I would love to know the other two dialects at least a bit.

I have some learning materials for Connacht (Cois Fharrige specifically) and Ulster, and would hate to put them to waste. Same with CO.

And yes, I do reference GnaG, though probably not as much as I should. Going forward, I will do it more regularly. Especially when it comes to these dialectal differences. I've also acquired some grammars for all three dialects and for CO, so there's that too. Though the ones for Connacht and Ulster a a little skimpy (being from the An Teanga Bheo series).

Thanks for what you outlined above, by the way!

[księżycowy]

So, it's my understanding that in Munster <bh> is generally pronounced as /v/, but I notice the female speaker on the audio recordings from here (TYI) seems to pronounce it as /w/. Is there any variation in the pronunciation of <bh>?

For instance
An bhfuil sí te?
/ə wilʲ ʃiː tʲe/

Also, is there anything that happens to an with a following vowel? I can't quite put my finger on it, but it sounds like in Tá an fhuinneog ar oscailt it's either being pronounced as /n/ or /ŋ/.
So it comes out something like /tɑː niŋʲog er oskalʲtʲ/, or so my ears believe.

[linguoboy]

Is there any variation in the pronunciation of <bh>?

There is. See Ó Cuív pp. 39-40.

Also, is there anything that happens to an with a following vowel? I can't quite put my finger on it, but it sounds like in Tá an fhuinneog ar oscailt it's either being pronounced as /n/ or /ŋ/.
So it comes out something like /tɑː niŋʲog er oskalʲtʲ/, or so my ears believe.

I have to say I'm not really sure what you're asking here. That transcription is the pronunciation I would expect.

[księżycowy]

I have to say I'm not really sure what you're asking here. That transcription is the pronunciation I would expect.

I guess I just hadn't noticed that pronunciation until I was carefully going through the audio and clipping it.

[księżycowy]

I have a quick orthography question:
When ana (very) is added to a word, is it always written with a hyphen (-) between the two components?

[kevin]

Scríobhtar.

[księżycowy]

I assume that's the impersonal form, which I haven't gotten into yet. I can't seem to find where that's dealt with on GnaG. How would that be translated? Something like "it's written" or something?

EDIT: Dur, I just realized it was at the bottom of the tables labeled "autonomous". There we go.

[kevin]

Yes, in most cases it's best translated with a passive form like "it's written", even though it isn't really passive in Irish. Outside of doing a translation into English, I prefer to think of it as an impersonal "one writes".

[księżycowy]

Go raibh maith agat!

(I almost slipped and said ありがとう! )

[księżycowy]

Rather than post another story, this week (and possibly into the next) I intend to catalogue the new vocabulary and structures from my last story, and also parse the Irish.

I'll work on it, and hope to post it by the weekend. I know that telling the genitive case in any literature will be a bit tricky at times.

[księżycowy]

I just asked a question in my language blog here. Rather than retype it here, I'm just sharing the link.

I don't care where it gets answered, here or there. I just figured you might have more of a chance seeing it here, Linguoboy

[linguoboy]

I just asked a question in my language blog here. Rather than retype it here, I'm just sharing the link.

I don't care where it gets answered, here or there. I just figured you might have more of a chance seeing it here, Linguoboy

Looks like kevin was on it.

(I've been on vacation and haven't been checking Unilang at all.)

[księżycowy]

Yeah, he posted shortly after I posted here. Thanks though.

[księżycowy]

I've been meaning to ask this for a while now, but is the dative still considered to exist in Modern Irish?
I ask because most resources I've seen (many of which I have) do not talk about the dative at all. In fact, as I recall only TYI and GnaG (can't remember Ó Siadhail's grammar).

Obviously I'm specifically interested in Munster Irish, but I'd be interested in the CO and other dialects as well.

[linguoboy]

I've been meaning to ask this for a while now, but is the dative still considered to exist in Modern Irish?

Only in fixed expressions, e.g. ó chianaibh, i gcois, sa ló. I think Munster may have more of these than other dialects.

[księżycowy]

Go raibh maith agat!