księżyc - Gaelainn

Moderator: kevin

User avatar
księżycowy
Posts: 13189
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2020-05-21, 10:28

linguoboy wrote:It could be san, but not sa in this case because uisce starts with a vowel.

Oh, right. I forgot about the added n before vowels. Thanks for reminding me.

(I'm not sure if they were being deliberately archaic by including insan in some of the examples or if it was still found among older dialect speakers at the time TYI was published.)

Perhaps it's like their usage of the dative plural ending in some exercises then? They do seem keen to teach some archaisms in TYI.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 24207
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2020-05-21, 14:26

księżycowy wrote:
linguoboy wrote:It could be san, but not sa in this case because uisce starts with a vowel.

Oh, right. I forgot about the added n before vowels. Thanks for reminding me.

It's not being "added"; it's just not being dropped. The spelling sa simply reflects the fact that the /n/ of an is deleted before many consonants, particularly fricatives. But the underlying form of the article is still /ən/.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
księżycowy
Posts: 13189
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2020-05-21, 14:34

My terminology was a bit awkward, but you know what I meant. :P

Though, it's interesting to note the phonological observations. I think I was starting to pick up on that on the audio.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 24207
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2020-05-21, 16:20

księżycowy wrote:My terminology was a bit awkward, but you know what I meant.

I did, but I think it's important to be clear about terminology because n-insertion is a thing in (Munster) Irish, just not in this case!
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
księżycowy
Posts: 13189
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2020-05-21, 18:25

Good to know.
Go raibh maith agat!

User avatar
silmeth
Posts: 213
Joined: 2010-04-26, 17:35
Real Name: Benedykt Jaworski
Gender: male
Location: Poznań
Country: PL Poland (Polska)

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby silmeth » 2020-05-22, 8:55

Worth noting that when it’s written in full, it’s always ins an or insan (eg. ins an bhád, ins an chroí, etc.) with the ⟨n⟩ written, unlike the shortened sa without it.

That’s also unlike Scottish Gaelic where you write anns a’ or sa (anns a’ bhàta or sa bhàta) before lenited fricatives and anns an and san before unlenited consonants and vowels (san sgeul) – both short and long version lose the ⟨n⟩ in same contexts.
polszczyzna jest moją mową ojczystą (pl), Is í Gaelainn na Mumhan atá á foghlaim agam (ga) ((ga-M)), mám, myslím, dobrou znalost češtiny, rozumím a něco mluvím (cs), Jeg lærer meg bokmål på Duolingo (no-nb) (og eg ville lære nynorsk ein gong (no-nn))

User avatar
księżycowy
Posts: 13189
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2020-05-22, 10:30

So, you couldn't have *insa, I gather. Or have I misread?

User avatar
silmeth
Posts: 213
Joined: 2010-04-26, 17:35
Real Name: Benedykt Jaworski
Gender: male
Location: Poznań
Country: PL Poland (Polska)

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby silmeth » 2020-05-22, 10:35

księżycowy wrote:So, you couldn't have *insa, I gather. Or have I misread?

Yes, I’d say so.

At least I haven’t seen *insa, only insan or ins an. Probably because in the full version an is still treated as the definite article (and it also is always written in full in Irish: an bhean, not *a’ bhean or anything like it, even if it’s pronounced as /ə v′an/ without the /n/).
polszczyzna jest moją mową ojczystą (pl), Is í Gaelainn na Mumhan atá á foghlaim agam (ga) ((ga-M)), mám, myslím, dobrou znalost češtiny, rozumím a něco mluvím (cs), Jeg lærer meg bokmål på Duolingo (no-nb) (og eg ville lære nynorsk ein gong (no-nn))

User avatar
księżycowy
Posts: 13189
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2020-05-22, 16:06

silmeth wrote:Probably because in the full version an is still treated as the definite article (and it also is always written in full in Irish: an bhean, not *a’ bhean or anything like it, even if it’s pronounced as /ə v′an/ without the /n/).

That's what I was thinking as well.

User avatar
księżycowy
Posts: 13189
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2020-06-03, 22:47

I'm going through the lesson on the copula (for the third time :P ), and I wanted to check a few things:

I came up with the following answers for Exercise 21:
1. Is tigh ana-mhór é. (The answer key has Tigh ana-mhór is ea é.)
5. Is iad san mo bhróga-sa. (Again, the answer key has Sin iad mo bhróga-sa.)
Are my versions correct as well, or are those given in the answer key the only way to phrase those two for some odd reason? It's hard to anticipate which they want in regards to Is leabhar é and Leabhar is ea é, and so forth. If I remember correctly there is a slight emphasis in the latter, but other than that, they are the same, right?

I also found it interesting that móin is plural in sentence 7.

And last but not least, if a sentence has a location (such as in sentence 8, "sa phortach") is uses , not is, correct? I ask because I wasn't thinking and wrote a sentence with is instead and am trying to determine if is can be used in such sentences. :P

I also appreciate the fact that the talk about definite nouns in passing in this chapter, but they don't exactly spell out what they are talking about. Instead they just give a few examples. Buíochas le Dia for GnaG. :wink:

I haven't completed the exercise this time yet. I did it about a week about and completely fucked up some of the later sentences. So this time I'm taking it slow and hoping at least some of it will sink in.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 24207
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2020-06-04, 2:26

księżycowy wrote:I came up with the following answers for Exercise 21:
1. Is tigh ana-mhór é. (The answer key has Tigh ana-mhór is ea é.)
5. Is iad san mo bhróga-sa. (Again, the answer key has Sin iad mo bhróga-sa.)
Are my versions correct as well, or are those given in the answer key the only way to phrase those two for some odd reason?

They're correct but not idiomatic for West Muskerry. Munster dialects pretty much always default to X is ea Y in classificatory sentences (to the point that some even allow this in the interrogative; for details, see Ó Siadhail). And all the dialects prefer null copula + demonstrative pronoun + personal personal in identificational sentences; sentences of the type is PP det predicate are found in the written standard, but that doesn't allow the Munster form san.

The way TYI, in its idiosyncratic way, makes this clear(ish) is by calling the alternative versions "common forms". They don't just mean that those versions are common but that they are the most common versions of these sentences.

księżycowy wrote:It's hard to anticipate which they want in regards to Is leabhar é and Leabhar is ea é, and so forth. If I remember correctly there is a slight emphasis in the latter, but other than that, they are the same, right?

I'm not sure I'd say there's any particular emphasis in either version.

księżycowy wrote:I also found it interesting that móin is plural in sentence 7.

It's not though; móin can be either a mass noun or a count noun (just like the corresponding word turf, at least in Irish English). In this case, it's treated as a mass noun and so appears in the genitive singular after cuid.

księżycowy wrote:And last but not least, if a sentence has a location (such as in sentence 8, "sa phortach") is uses , not is, correct? I ask because I wasn't thinking and wrote a sentence with is instead and am trying to determine if is can be used in such sentences.

Only for purposes of emphasis, i.e. Is sa phortach atá mo chuid-se fós (or Munster-style Sa phortach is ea atá mo chuid-se fós). The main verb is still , as for all locational sentences. It's only with predicate adjectives where you have a choice.

Speaking of which, I'm kind of surprised they give Tigh ana-mhór is ea é and not Is ana-mhór an tigh é given that, once again, the latter is described as "the common form" of this sort of sentence.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
księżycowy
Posts: 13189
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2020-06-04, 20:56

linguoboy wrote:I'm not sure I'd say there's any particular emphasis in either version.

I thought I remembered that from an earlier discussion on this chapter, but I could very easily be remembering what was said incorrectly. :P

It's not though; móin can be either a mass noun or a count noun (just like the corresponding word turf, at least in Irish English). In this case, it's treated as a mass noun and so appears in the genitive singular after cuid.
I had initially thought it might have been in the genitive case, but after looking back at chapter 1, I dismissed that idea. I should have checked the glossary as well, I guess.

Only for purposes of emphasis, i.e. Is sa phortach atá mo chuid-se fós (or Munster-style Sa phortach is ea atá mo chuid-se fós). The main verb is still , as for all locational sentences. It's only with predicate adjectives where you have a choice.

I'm glad to see that I wasn't off in my thinking. :)

Go raibh maith agat!

Now for sentence 14:
Is iad na Gearmánaigh iad so.

When I was working on the translation, I believe I identified the sentence correctly. It's one of identification, that has both a definite noun, and more importantly a demonstrative. So......why isn't it Seo iad na Gearmánaigh? (That's how I initially translated it, and then I saw what was in the answer key...)

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 24207
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2020-06-04, 21:14

księżycowy wrote:
linguoboy wrote:I'm not sure I'd say there's any particular emphasis in either version.

I thought I remembered that from an earlier discussion on this chapter, but I could very easily be remembering what was said incorrectly.

The discussion in the chapter mentions "emphasis" a couple times, but I'm not sure how the authors intend the term. (They were writing before the terms "topic" and "focus" had filtered down to popular linguistic discourse.)

Now for sentence 14:
Is iad na Gearmánaigh iad so.

When I was working on the translation, I believe I identified the sentence correctly. It's one of identification, that has both a definite noun, and more importantly a demonstrative. So......why isn't it Seo iad na Gearmánaigh? (That's how I initially translated it, and then I saw what was in the answer key...)

I assume it's contrastive. The previous two sentences are about the Englishmen; the next is about the Americans. But these are the Germans. Normally you're only making one contrast in an identificatory sentence, not two.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
księżycowy
Posts: 13189
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2020-06-04, 22:35

linguoboy wrote:The discussion in the chapter mentions "emphasis" a couple times, but I'm not sure how the authors intend the term. (They were writing before the terms "topic" and "focus" had filtered down to popular linguistic discourse.)

I meant here on the forum. Sorry for the confusion.

I assume it's contrastive. The previous two sentences are about the Englishmen; the next is about the Americans. But these are the Germans. Normally you're only making one contrast in an identificatory sentence, not two.

So, in other words, if you wanted to contrast the identity of something with a previously mentioned identity, you would use this word order, rather than the one I thought it should be translated as?

I swear, this chapter will be the end of me.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 24207
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2020-06-05, 16:43

księżycowy wrote:So, in other words, if you wanted to contrast the identity of something with a previously mentioned identity, you would use this word order, rather than the one I thought it should be translated as?

That's my understanding, but this is a confusing subject (and--uncoincidentally--one where I see the biggest contrasts between Traditional Late Modern Irish and Non-Traditional Late Modern Irish).

księżycowy wrote:I swear, this chapter will be the end of me.

They do warn you that the copula requires "careful study and practice"! This is one area in particular where I find reference to GnaG and Ó Siadhail invaluable. But really getting a handle on it requires lots of exposure to the usage of fluent speakers (either written or spoken).
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons


Return to “Celtic Languages”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest