Munster Irish Resources?

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księżycowy
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Re: Munster Irish Resources?

Postby księżycowy » 2010-12-29, 15:57

linguoboy wrote:Wow, I can't believe you found that! The audio is terrible, though; I could only understand every other word in the vocabulary list, and I know that book backwards and forwards.

Neither can I. :)
And yeah, the audio isn't the greatest, but at least it's something.

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Re: Munster Irish Resources?

Postby księżycowy » 2013-07-31, 11:37

Someone has taken the time to upload the Munster edition of TYS Irish at archive.org. Even the original LP audio has been uploaded (including a version of the PDF with the audio embedded).

I'm not sure if the quality of the audio is any better then the other link I posted a few years ago, but I thought this might be of interest none-the-less.

http://archive.org/details/TeachYourselfIrish
http://archive.org/details/Gael-linnAud ... fIrish1961

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Re: Munster Irish Resources?

Postby ceid donn » 2013-08-01, 16:04

Thanks for this. When I was looing into studying Gaelic the first and second time around I wanted to go with Munster because that was the dialect my great-grandfather spoke as his mother tongue, but I couldn't find any resources. Don't regret going with Gàidhlig but it's nice to have a reference for Munster dialect if I should ever need or want it. :)

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Re: Munster Irish Resources?

Postby ceid donn » 2013-11-05, 15:01

Well, I've downloaded this and am taking a look at it. I looked at some resources for Connacht and Ulster, and found them annoying, so I'm giving my great-grandpappy Danny McCarthy's dialect a shot. Since I've done the whole of TYG, this TYI is in a format that I know and am comfortable with (and yes I know it's not going to the "best"--whatever that might be). Plus the embedded audio, from what I'm checked out, is pretty good. I'll work through the first couple of lessons and see how it goes. If I like it I might offer an invitation to anyone interested to meet on Skype to work through this book.

(Fair warning: I dont tolerate nitpickers and know-it-alls very well. If you want to work with me, please know while I expect people to respect each others' time--i.e. show up for Skype meetings if you say you will--I otherwise take a very laid-back, make-all-the-mistakes-you-need approach to language learning. The point is to just do it. Is fheàrr Gàidhlig/Gaeilge bhriste na Beurla chliste. Ceart gu leòr? :whistle: ).

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Re: Munster Irish Resources?

Postby księżycowy » 2013-11-05, 15:49

That might be interesting. I have been tossing around the idea of putting Modern Hebrew on hold (while still keeping up the Biblical), and doing one of the European languages I really want to start getting into. And Irish is on that list.

I was thinking of doing the CO first, rather then a dialect, but I'd be up for anything concidering I forgot a lot of my Connacht Irish.

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Re: Munster Irish Resources?

Postby Alluns » 2013-11-05, 16:28

I have dabbled in all of the dialects and really enjoyed the Munster forms. Do many here know if they way the speech described in TYI is actually how people there are using the language? One person whom I had been talking to, acted like it was a more mundane/inferior form of the language. I dont know if this is truely what he meant, but that was my impression. Im in total agreement with Ceid Donn, the goal of learning the language should take prioity.

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Re: Munster Irish Resources?

Postby księżycowy » 2013-11-05, 17:04

Seeing as the textbook is from the 50's if I remember correctly, I'd say it's not exactly the way they speak Munster now-a-days. Plus the textbook is quite similar to Learning Irish and thus heavy on the written language.

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Re: Munster Irish Resources?

Postby ceid donn » 2013-11-05, 17:19

Alluns, you are going to run into some people with attitude problems if you study any Celtic langauge for very long. Being less studied than more dominant languages, Celtic languages can attract people who like to be the Big Fish in the Small Pond, if you follow me. Don't let it get to you too much--I admit I let it get to me more than I should . :roll:

I have heard over and over from Irish speakers that every dialect is understood by the others. I know with Gàidhlig, hardly anyone bats an eye over dialectical differences--you're speaking/learning Gàidhlig and that's all that counts. So I'm just not going to worry about it.

But don't let anyone suggest any dialect is inferior or lesser. That is just elitist bullcrap that works against these languages' survival. One of the attitudes towards Celtic languages that helped oppress them was the notion they are mundane, peasanty, rustic or otherwise inferior to the more civilized English tongue (which ironically had once been considered mundane, peasanty, rustic or otherwise inferior to French and Latin). Anyone learning a Celtic language who's perpetuating those attitudes needs a serious course correction with their perspective.

księżycowy wrote:Seeing as the textbook is from the 50's if I remember correctly, I'd say it's not exactly the way they speak Munster now-a-days. Plus the textbook is quite similar to Learning Irish and thus heavy on the written language.


I don't know how much of a difference that will make. It's not like it's with Breton where you have texts teaching "neo-Breton" prescribed by academics that native speakers don't actually use. If it's rooted in what people really were using in the 1950's, very likely it can still be understood today and adopting newer vocabulary and forms shouldn't be that hard once you have some basis. I've certainly found that to be true with Gàidhlig, despite the many Anglicizations that have been entering the language in the past couple of decades.

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Re: Munster Irish Resources?

Postby księżycowy » 2013-11-05, 18:08

I was just pointing out that the book is a bit dated, and I completely agree. I have several textbooks from the past few decades, and I fully intend to use them. The base vocabulary and grammar will still make a great foundation.

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Re: Munster Irish Resources?

Postby linguoboy » 2013-11-05, 19:24

księżycowy wrote:Seeing as the textbook is from the 50's if I remember correctly, I'd say it's not exactly the way they speak Munster now-a-days.

I learned (Munster) Irish from that textbook and a fluent speaker of a Connacht dialect once said that I sounded like "a 100-year-old man who'd just walked out of the bog".

David Webb (maith an trácht ar an ainm seo dhom, a Chiaráin) is a notorious Munster elitist, but even he admits that the language spoken in West Muskerry today isn't the same of that of fifty or a hundred years ago, and that's not all bad.
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Re: Munster Irish Resources?

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-11-05, 19:42

I think learning any form of Irish (Munster, Ulster, Connacht or CO) is good. People make a lot of the differences, but it really needs to be borne in mind more often that they are all the same language, and if you master one it should be no major challenge to tackle another. The confusing part at the beinning is deadling with the variety you will come across - if you study Munster Irish and read Ulster Irish you might have some difficulty initially, but really that's just an opportunity to broaden your vocab and learn about a new dialect. In the end, in order to be functionally fluent in Irish, no matter what dialect you speak yourself, you will have to acquire a passive knowledge of the others in order to converse with their speakers. So long as you bear that in mind you should be fine.

I'm sure Mr. Webb has accrued and made available a fine collection of resources at his site, but please don't take his attitude to the state of the Modern language on board. At least, don't bring it here, I won't tolerate his class of nonsense.

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Re: Munster Irish Resources?

Postby Alluns » 2013-11-05, 21:17

linguoboy wrote:
księżycowy wrote:Seeing as the textbook is from the 50's if I remember correctly, I'd say it's not exactly the way they speak Munster now-a-days.

I learned (Munster) Irish from that textbook and a fluent speaker of a Connacht dialect once said that I sounded like "a 100-year-old man who'd just walked out of the bog".


If I ever had more of a desire to better my Irish, it would be because of this right here. I think it would go awesome with some 100 year old whiskey. Does anyone here enjoy or play Irish/Celtic music. I would like to use my language either by singing or at least with translation of the fiddle tunes ("Tabhair dom do lahm" for example).

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Re: Munster Irish Resources?

Postby linguoboy » 2013-11-05, 21:28

If you enjoy Irish music and are interested in Munster Irish, I've got some sean nós singers you should hear starting with Diarmuid Ó Súilleabháin. Here's one of his that gives me shivers every time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GFbqCMaH78
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Re: Munster Irish Resources?

Postby Deghebh » 2014-05-06, 9:58

ceid donn wrote:Well, I've downloaded this and am taking a look at it. I looked at some resources for Connacht and Ulster, and found them annoying, so I'm giving my great-grandpappy Danny McCarthy's dialect a shot. Since I've done the whole of TYG, this TYI is in a format that I know and am comfortable with (and yes I know it's not going to the "best"--whatever that might be). Plus the embedded audio, from what I'm checked out, is pretty good. I'll work through the first couple of lessons and see how it goes. If I like it I might offer an invitation to anyone interested to meet on Skype to work through this book.

(Fair warning: I dont tolerate nitpickers and know-it-alls very well. If you want to work with me, please know while I expect people to respect each others' time--i.e. show up for Skype meetings if you say you will--I otherwise take a very laid-back, make-all-the-mistakes-you-need approach to language learning. The point is to just do it. Is fheàrr Gàidhlig/Gaeilge bhriste na Beurla chliste. Ceart gu leòr? :whistle: ).

Dia duit a chara,
Is mise an bloody eejit who scanned, re-typeset, and incorporated the sound files.
If you read the notes at the front, you will get an idea.
The sad thing, is I did all this without actually doing the course!
btw: my skype id is 'daveat168'

Is mise,
le meas,
Deghebh.

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Re: Munster Irish Resources?

Postby An Lon Dubh » 2014-05-08, 8:51

linguoboy wrote:
księżycowy wrote:Seeing as the textbook is from the 50's if I remember correctly, I'd say it's not exactly the way they speak Munster now-a-days.

I learned (Munster) Irish from that textbook and a fluent speaker of a Connacht dialect once said that I sounded like "a 100-year-old man who'd just walked out of the bog".

:lol:

As linguoboy has mentioned some of the material in TYI is a little out of date. In the main, some of the verbal forms are no longer used (and were rarely used when the book was written) and the case system is much simpler than what is given in the book. Also some of the phrases used in the book would no longer be understood. Like "Tá sé slán folláin anois" for "He is fine now".

There is a good textbook on Modern Munster Irish (An Ghaeilge), but it is in Polish.

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Re: Munster Irish Resources?

Postby księżycowy » 2014-05-08, 22:02

Thanks!

I believe that textbook was already mentioned, but thanks for reminding me of it none-the-less. I'm nowhere near fluent enough in Polish to make use of it yet, but I'm still planning on working on that problem soon. :wink:

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Re: Munster Irish Resources?

Postby An Lon Dubh » 2014-05-09, 13:45

Just so that you know, the major outdated pieces of grammar from TYI would be:

(a) The dative case of the noun is no longer used outside of fixed phrases or about twenty or so common words. The same is true for the dual number (the dual and dative have the same form).
(b) The genitive plural is now rarely used outside of counting people or fixed phrases.
(c) Adjectives rarely undergo case inflection, the only exceptions being, once again, fixed phrases and about ten or so common nouns. In fact the presence of an attributive adjective usually causes the noun to remain uninflected.
(d) The present subjunctive form of the verb is only now used in expressing wishes or blessings.
(e) The past subjunctive is essentially not used today. It used to be used in conditional clauses.
(f) The dependent forms of deir and tabhair given at the back of the book are no longer used.

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Re: Munster Irish Resources?

Postby księżycowy » 2014-05-09, 13:58

Thank you! That helps a great deal! :D

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Re: Munster Irish Resources?

Postby linguoboy » 2014-05-09, 16:22

An Lon Dubh wrote:There is a good textbook on Modern Munster Irish (An Ghaeilge), but it is in Polish.

But, mara bhfuil dul amú orm, that teaches Kerry dialect, nach ea?

Hmm, sounding like a 100-year old man from the bog or sounding like a Kerryman. Hobson's choice, really.
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Re: Munster Irish Resources?

Postby Deghebh » 2014-05-10, 20:16

księżycowy wrote:This might be a little of topic, but I was curious if any dialect oriented dictionaries exist (in print preferably, but due to my assumption of their scarcity, online is ok too). By this I mean dictionaries that use only dialectal words, not the official standard (in case anyone's confused). I already have the two huge standard Irish dictionaries, so I was just curious about any for the three major dialects.

You might like: 'Foclóir Gaeḋilge agus Béarla' Irish-English Dictionary by Patrick S.Dinneen M.A.
ISBN 1 870 16600 0
First published in 1927, reprinted in '34, '41, '45, '47, '53, '65, '75, & '79.
It was reset in a larger type, by magnifying the whole page photographically in 1996.

It is for 99.99%, a photographic reproduction of the 1927 version, with minor additions.

Since it dates back to the time that the Munster dialect was considered the de facto standard, this then is essentially a munster dialect dictionary.
The price in 1927 was twelve shillings and sixpence, 5/8 of £1 English.
You will now need to pay about 50 times that amount to obtain this STILL IN PRINT version from the Irish Texts Society.
Though it is a purely photographic reproduction of a good copy, it is nevertheless subject imperfections in the process, yet on the whole, it is well readable with extremely few illegibilities which cannot be interpolated. I thoroughly recommend it.

Le meas,
Deghebh.


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