Cluich: an duine gu h-ìosal

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Sectori
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Re: Cluich: an duine gu h-ìosal

Postby Sectori » 2013-06-04, 21:11

johnklepac wrote:
Sectori wrote:
johnklepac wrote:Thanks. Few people here actually know any SG so I've had to mostly play it by guesses.

What resources are you using to learn?

Just an online dictionary and Wikipedia's entry for "Scottish Gaelic grammar." I'm broke and don't have a credit card.

Here are some sites you should check out:
- TAIC, structured lessons plus audio
- Sabhal Mòr Ostaig's online dictionary, if it's not the one you're using already
- Beag air Bheag, the BBC's online course
- Learn Gaelic has some useful things on it
- there are others in the "Celtic language resources" topic
Chan eil, chan eil domh ùidh agam anns a' bhàrdachd.

Theirigeadh(/Rachadh) an duine gu h-ìosal do an dh'Àisia.

(I'm assuming you wanted to say "The person below me would go to Asia"? Using the conditional here feels weird to me.)

Uheheh. I was trying to say "has gone" (SG allows use of the simple past for the present perfect, right?), but since I wasn't able to find the verbal noun form of "theirig" I just guessed. Is "rach" still common outside conditionals?

The past tense of "go" is irregular, in any case: it's chaidh (dependent deach). rach is used for commands as well.
Also, it would be dhomh

"Domh" is in the dictionary, though, and in the expression "cha 'n eòl domh." Is it an antiquated form or something?

As far as I know, yes. It might be very southern (the dialects that are closer to Ulster Irish), but I'm really not sure and wouldn't count on it. Are you using that one really old online dictionary? SMO's is much more current, and English Wiktionary is actually pretty solid, too.
and do plus the definite article contracts to don or dhan.

Is "do" + an article wrong, or is it just unidiomatic? Either way, I'll change; just wondering.

I'm pretty sure it's just wrong, but it's possible that it's acceptable as a variant before plural nouns; you'd have to ask someone who uses don as the contraction.
Anyway, with my luck this'll turn out like crap:

Chan eil, tha mo teaglach às an t-Seic, às a' Chuimrigh, agus à na-hàiteachan eile.

à becomes às before the definite article, a' Chuimrigh and an t-Seic both include the definite article, and while I think you can coordinate objects of prepositions, doing it for words with different definitenesses sounds super-weird to me, as does having àiteachan be definite here.
Tha an duine gu h-ìosal a' cluiche a' ghiotàir.

seinn is "sing", and in any case you can't just use the verbal noun as the verb there. Verbal nouns take objects in the genitive, thus a' ghiotàir.

To be perfectly blunt, I think it would be probably more productive for you to take a look at some of the pages I linked above for a more structured intro to Gaelic, rather than trying to construct specific sentences with only a grammar and a dictionary.

Chan eil mi a' cluiche a' ghiotàir, ach tha mi a' cluiche na feadaige 's an fìdhle. Chan eil mi a' cluiche glè math, ge-ta.

Chan eil coimpiùtair aig an duine gu h-ìosal.
agus tha mo chluasan eòlach air a’ mhac-talla fhathast / às dèidh dhomh dùsgadh
(mona nicleòid wagner, “fo shneachd”)

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Re: Cluich: an duine gu h-ìosal

Postby johnklepac » 2013-06-04, 21:31

Sectori wrote:Here are some sites you should check out:
- TAIC, structured lessons plus audio
- Sabhal Mòr Ostaig's online dictionary, if it's not the one you're using already
- Beag air Bheag, the BBC's online course
- Learn Gaelic has some useful things on it
- there are others in the "Celtic language resources" topic

Thanks.

Are you using that one really old online dictionary? SMO's is much more current, and English Wiktionary is actually pretty solid, too.

The one from Lexilogos? Yeah. I use Wiktionary sometimes, but mainly to verify definitions of words rather than to find them in the first place; I don't like scrolling down for twenty seconds to find the SG translation of a word only for there to rarely be one.

à becomes às before the definite article, a' Chuimrigh and an t-Seic both include the definite article

I didn't see a definite article before "Alba" in yours.

and while I think you can coordinate objects of prepositions, doing it for words with different definitenesses sounds super-weird to me, as does having àiteachan be definite here.

I haven't found any good explanation of when to use the definite article or any reliable patterns in the usage I've seen.

seinn is "sing"

I know it usually means "sing," but none of the translations of "play" I've seen has included playing an instrument, and there's this, so...

and in any case you can't just use the verbal noun as the verb there.

All I know about verbs in this tense is that "inn" changes to "nidh," but "senidh" didn't look right so I didn't know what to do with it.

To be perfectly blunt, I think it would be probably more productive for you to take a look at some of the pages I linked above for a more structured intro to Gaelic, rather than trying to construct specific sentences with only a grammar and a dictionary.

How will I know when it's enough?

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Re: Cluich: an duine gu h-ìosal

Postby Sectori » 2013-06-04, 22:24

johnklepac wrote:
à becomes às before the definite article, a' Chuimrigh and an t-Seic both include the definite article

I didn't see a definite article before "Alba" in yours.

Because Alba doesn't have one — much like French, some place names (incl. a' Chuimrigh and an t-Seic but not Alba) include definite articles and some do not.
and while I think you can coordinate objects of prepositions, doing it for words with different definitenesses sounds super-weird to me, as does having àiteachan be definite here.

I haven't found any good explanation of when to use the definite article or any reliable patterns in the usage I've seen.

Often the usage for common nouns is comparable to English, as here (you wouldn't say "...and from the other places" if you haven't introduced said other places yet), but there are particular rules for genitive expressions and others — this is where the sites above could probably be helpful.
seinn is "sing"

I know it usually means "sing," but none of the translations of "play" I've seen has included playing an instrument, and there's this, so...

Ah — that's a usage I'm not familiar with, then. cluich can also be "play an instrument", in any case.
and in any case you can't just use the verbal noun as the verb there.

All I know about verbs in this tense is that "inn" changes to "nidh," but "senidh" didn't look right so I didn't know what to do with it.

Ah, I see what you were going for — that's true, but only for verbs with more than one syllable (bruidhinn "speak", e.g.). For seinn it would just be seinnidh.
To be perfectly blunt, I think it would be probably more productive for you to take a look at some of the pages I linked above for a more structured intro to Gaelic, rather than trying to construct specific sentences with only a grammar and a dictionary.

How will I know when it's enough?

I...don't really know how to answer that? When we're not correcting every other word of your posts?

My sense at this point is that you're having to use a dictionary for basically every word and that you're consulting the grammar for basically every construction. You can't externalize knowledge of a modern language: that's why people start with pleasantries and the basics of grammar and introduce new concepts one at a time, so that they have time to build up their skills. I'm not saying "don't participate in this thread", I'm saying "stick to what you know". Which doesn't mean you can't stretch yourself, but there's a difference between stretching and overreaching, and it seems to me that you're currently overreaching.

(You might also check out Fòram na Gàidhlig, which isn't super-active but does maintain a fairly constant low volume of activity.)

I'm trying my best to not make this sound patronizing, and I apologize if it does — that's not my intention, but tone is sometimes difficult to convey online. A grammar can't answer your questions, and while people on Unilang or FnaG may be able to, it's a lot harder and more time-consuming to answer questions about more advanced parts of Gaelic grammar and usage when you don't have a solid grasp of the basics.
agus tha mo chluasan eòlach air a’ mhac-talla fhathast / às dèidh dhomh dùsgadh
(mona nicleòid wagner, “fo shneachd”)

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Re: Cluich: an duine gu h-ìosal

Postby johnklepac » 2013-06-05, 15:49

Sectori wrote:
How will I know when it's enough?

I...don't really know how to answer that? When we're not correcting every other word of your posts?

At least you know how to be direct.

My sense at this point is that you're having to use a dictionary for basically every word and that you're consulting the grammar for basically every construction.

I don't know that little vocabulary. I understand a good amount of what I read and have a few hundred vocab words down, and most of the time I make grammatical changes without looking at that grammar, but as you've pointed out, declining and conjugating everything right is what gets me.

I'm not saying "don't participate in this thread", I'm saying "stick to what you know".

On a practical level, you mean the first one. Pleasantries and the basics of grammar won't cut it on a thread like this - actually, really anywhere.

Which doesn't mean you can't stretch yourself, but there's a difference between stretching and overreaching, and it seems to me that you're currently overreaching.

This puts me in a difficult position. By the time I've actually gotten far at all in the lessons, I'll be too bored to care anymore. Maybe that's for the better.

A grammar can't answer your questions, and while people on Unilang or FnaG may be able to, it's a lot harder and more time-consuming to answer questions about more advanced parts of Gaelic grammar and usage when you don't have a solid grasp of the basics.

I'm... sorry, I guess. I just have so few opportunities to actually see Gaelic text as it's being used.

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Re: Cluich: an duine gu h-ìosal

Postby Ciarán12 » 2013-06-05, 15:59

@ johnklepac My advice would be to start your own Gàidhlig thread. That'll give you an outlet and spark discussion in and about Gaelic that is at your level. It should help keep you motivated (so long as people answer your questions - here I'm looking at you guys Sectori, ceid donn and and Lewis), and I don't think it'll take too long before you're able for this thread :wink: .

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Re: Cluich: an duine gu h-ìosal

Postby johnklepac » 2013-06-05, 16:09

Ciarán12 wrote:@ johnklepac My advice would be to start your own Gàidhlig thread. That'll give you an outlet and spark discussion in and about Gaelic that is at your level. It should help keep you motivated (so long as people answer your questions - here I'm looking at you guys Sectori, ceid donn and and Lewis), and I don't think it'll take too long before you're able for this thread :wink: .

No, that's the problem. The more of-my-own-making the setting is, the less I'll be inclined to care about pleasantries and simple talk. I'm just going to bang some formal materials and see if I come out on the other side.

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Re: Cluich: an duine gu h-ìosal

Postby Lewis91 » 2013-06-05, 20:39

A chàirdean,

bu chaomh leam beachd a thoirt seachad air an t-suidheachadh a tha seo, ma dh'fhaodas mi:

tha deagh chuimhn' a'm nuair a bha mi fhìn aig toiseach-toiseachaidh na Gàidhlig o chionn bheagan bhliadhnaichean, agus ged nach robh ach facal na dhà agam cha d' fhuair mi riamh ach brosnachadh bho na fìleantaich, agus leis a sin saoilidh mi gu bheil còrr againne an aon rud a dhèanamh don luchd-thoiseachaidh a tha nar measg anns an fhòram a tha seo. Bu chòir dhuinn am brosnachadh 's an cuideachadh seach a bhith gan caineadh cho luath 's a thèid rudeigin ceàrr orra. Oir nach e nàdar de ghoireas-ionnsachaidh a tha san snàith seo?
____________________________________________________________________

Quick English synopsis, definitely not a word-for-word translation.

Lads,

if I may offer my opinion on this situation:

What really helped me when I was a beginner was encouragement, and really think that we ought to be doing the same for the beginners we have in this forum. We should be encouraging them and helping them, rather than criticising as soon as they make a mistake. After all, isn't this thread a kind of learning resource anyway?

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Re: Cluich: an duine gu h-ìosal

Postby Sectori » 2013-06-05, 21:23

'S e an fhìrinn a th' agad gu dearbh. Bu chòir dhomh "tha mi duilich" a chantainn ri johnklepac; ghabh mi beagan caothach, 's tha mi duilich airson sin.

You're right, of course. I should apologize to johnklepac; I lost my temper a bit, and I'm sorry for that.
agus tha mo chluasan eòlach air a’ mhac-talla fhathast / às dèidh dhomh dùsgadh
(mona nicleòid wagner, “fo shneachd”)

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Re: Cluich: an duine gu h-ìosal

Postby johnklepac » 2013-06-05, 22:14

Sectori wrote:'S e an fhìrinn a th' agad gu dearbh. Bu chòir dhomh "tha mi duilich" a chantainn ri johnklepac; ghabh mi beagan caothach, 's tha mi duilich airson sin.

You're right, of course. I should apologize to johnklepac; I lost my temper a bit, and I'm sorry for that.

Eh, it's alright. I should've seen something like this coming. When I was only about a month into Czech, for example, as I am now with SG, I wasn't posting here (though I hadn't yet joined). It does seem that having proofreaders like you helps with learning, but obviously you're not always going to be in the mood for that.

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Re: Cluich: an duine gu h-ìosal

Postby Sectori » 2013-06-05, 23:38

Mar sin, air ais dhan chluich?

Tha an duine gu h-ìosal a' ruith gach latha.
agus tha mo chluasan eòlach air a’ mhac-talla fhathast / às dèidh dhomh dùsgadh
(mona nicleòid wagner, “fo shneachd”)

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Re: Cluich: an duine gu h-ìosal

Postby Lewis91 » 2013-06-06, 21:49

Sectori wrote:Mar sin, air ais dhan chluich?

ThaBidh an duine gu h-ìosal a' ruith gach latha.


Dh'fhaodadh tu seo a chantainn cuideachd: Ruithidh an duine gu h-ìosal gach latha.

Cuimhnich gum feumar an tràth teachdail a chleachdadh mas e rud a nithear gu bitheanta.
Remember that you need to use the future tense if it's something you do frequently/habitually.

Co-dhiù, bheir mi freagairt dhut: Chan eil/cha bhi/cha ruith, fada ro leisg airson a leithid.

Cha do bhlas an duine gu h-ìosal riamh marag-dhubh.

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Re: Cluich: an duine gu h-ìosal

Postby Sectori » 2013-06-06, 22:59

Taing!

Cha do bhlas mi a-riamh malag-dhubh.

'S toil leis an duine gu h-ìosal càise.
agus tha mo chluasan eòlach air a’ mhac-talla fhathast / às dèidh dhomh dùsgadh
(mona nicleòid wagner, “fo shneachd”)

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Re: Cluich: an duine gu h-ìosal

Postby Lewis91 » 2013-06-07, 1:26

'S e do bheatha, a Shectori.

'S toil.

Tha cànan cheilteach eile aig an duine gu h-ìosal, a thuilleadh air Gàidhlig na h-Alba.

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Re: Cluich: an duine gu h-ìosal

Postby Sectori » 2013-06-07, 4:30

Chan eil, ach tha mi ag iarraidh ionnsachadh Gàidhlig na h-Èireann an-dràsta: cuir a' cheist orm a-rithist aig deireadh an t-samhraidh agus 's dòcha gum bi freagairt eile agam.

Sgrìobh an duine gu h-ìosal nobhail.
agus tha mo chluasan eòlach air a’ mhac-talla fhathast / às dèidh dhomh dùsgadh
(mona nicleòid wagner, “fo shneachd”)

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Re: Cluich: an duine gu h-ìosal

Postby Lewis91 » 2013-06-08, 22:35

O uill ma-thà, 's cinnteach gum bi an t-eòlas a th'agad mar-thà air a' Ghàidhlig na chuideachadh mòr dhut. Ní féidir liom Gaeilge a labhairt, ach caithfidh mé rádh nach bhfuil sí ró dhoiligh a thuigse i scríobhinn.

Feumaidh mi cantainn nach do sgrìobh.

Bha an cnatan air an duine gu h-ìosal o chionn ghoirid.

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Re: Cluich: an duine gu h-ìosal

Postby Sectori » 2013-06-09, 1:19

Cha robh, ach tha fiabhras-feòir agam, mar sin cha robh mi a' faireachdainn ro mhath o chionn ghoirid. Tha mi a' faireachdainn nas fheàrr a-nis, ge-ta.

Bha càraidean aig taigh an duine gu h-ìosal a-raoir.
agus tha mo chluasan eòlach air a’ mhac-talla fhathast / às dèidh dhomh dùsgadh
(mona nicleòid wagner, “fo shneachd”)

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Re: Cluich: an duine gu h-ìosal

Postby Lewis91 » 2013-06-09, 11:46

Sectori wrote:Cha robh, ach tha fiabhras-feòir*agamorm, mar sin cha robh mi a' faireachdainn ro mhath o chionn ghoirid. Tha mi a' faireachdainn nas fheàrr a-nis,[s]ge-ta[s/] [Bu chòir sràc a bhith ann, 'ge-tà'.

Bha **càraidean aig taigh an duine gu h-ìosal a-raoir.


*Cuimhnich gur ann ort a tha leigheas, agus chan ann agad. M.e 'tha an sput orm', 'tha am fuachd air' msaa.

** An e caraidean (friends) a bha thu a' ciallachadh, seach càraidean (couples/sets of twins)?

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Re: Cluich: an duine gu h-ìosal

Postby Sectori » 2013-06-09, 22:31

Ahh, mòran taing!

Bha mi a' ciallachadh "caraidean" (no "càirdean" — tha sin ceart cuideachd, nach eil?) — rinn mi dearmad gu bheil "caraid(ean)" agus "càraid(ean)" glè dhiofrach.
agus tha mo chluasan eòlach air a’ mhac-talla fhathast / às dèidh dhomh dùsgadh
(mona nicleòid wagner, “fo shneachd”)

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Re: Cluich: an duine gu h-ìosal

Postby Lewis91 » 2013-06-11, 23:53

'S e do bheatha.

Tha, faodaidh tu 'càirdean' a chantainn cuideachd.

Èistidh an duine gu h-ìosal ri Rèidio nan Gàidheal.

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Re: Cluich: an duine gu h-ìosal

Postby Sectori » 2013-06-12, 22:04

Tha fios agam gum bu chòir dhomh, ach chan èist.

Their an duine gu h-ìosal dhuinn dè an t-òran sa' Ghàidhlig as fheàrr leis.
agus tha mo chluasan eòlach air a’ mhac-talla fhathast / às dèidh dhomh dùsgadh
(mona nicleòid wagner, “fo shneachd”)


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