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Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Posted: 2016-07-14, 16:14
by linguoboy
IpseDixit wrote:Hi everyone, I'm not interested in learning Irish (well, not for now at least), but I have a burning curiosity to know why sometimes there's a capital letter in the middle of a word, can you explain to me why that is and what its use is?

It's quite simple, really. Like all living Celtic languages, Irish has initial consonant mutations. In most of these languages, the orthographic convention is to replace the consonant, e.g. Cymraeg "Welsh" > yn Gymraeg "in Welsh". In Irish (and Scottish Gaelic), however, the practice is to prefix the resulting consonant to the original consonant, e.g. Gaeilge "Irish" > i nGaeilge "in Irish". [Pronounced with initial [ŋ].] This happens with all words (e.g. i ngeall, i ngaire, go ngabhad), but it only stands out when a proper noun is involved.

Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Posted: 2016-07-14, 16:31
by IpseDixit
linguoboy wrote:It's quite simple, really. Like all living Celtic languages, Irish has initial consonant mutations. In most of these languages, the orthographic convention is to replace the consonant, e.g. Cymraeg "Welsh" > yn Gymraeg "in Welsh". In Irish (and Scottish Gaelic), however, the practice is to prefix the resulting consonant to the original consonant, e.g. Gaeilge "Irish" > i nGaeilge "in Irish". [Pronounced with initial [ŋ].] This happens with all words (e.g. i ngeall, i ngaire, go ngabhad), but it only stands out when a proper noun is involved.


So the G/g becomes silent in those cases or both n and G/g are pronounced?

Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Posted: 2016-07-14, 17:06
by linguoboy
IpseDixit wrote:So the G/g becomes silent in those cases?

Not really "silent" since it takes both the <n> and the <g> together to represent /ŋ/. Clearer examples might be i mBairéin "in Bahrain", i nDoire "in Derry", or i bhFear Manach "in Fermanagh" where the capitalised consonant is completely silent.

Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Posted: 2016-07-14, 18:52
by IpseDixit
linguoboy wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:So the G/g becomes silent in those cases?

Not really "silent" since it takes both the <n> and the <g> together to represent /ŋ/. Clearer examples might be i mBairéin "in Bahrain", i nDoire "in Derry", or i bhFear Manach "in Fermanagh" where the capitalised consonant is completely silent.


I see, thanks!

Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Posted: 2016-08-24, 19:57
by Núria Harket

Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Posted: 2016-08-25, 19:11
by ceid donn


Thanks for posting this.

I don't agree with some of its contentions, like how had it survived Scottish Gaelic and Manx wouldn't be seen as separate languages. This is highly dismissive of the way Gaelic and Manx developed on their own independent of Irish, how Manx took on a completely different orthography, how Gaelic had been influenced by Nordic languages, and how both Gaelic and Manx are deposits of vocabulary, idioms, tradition, history, song, storytelling and folklore pertaining to cultures and communities unique to Isle of Man and Scotland and thus are not Irish and do not relate to the Irish language.

I agree that the Gaelic languages are close, but ignoring what makes them distinct is problematic at best and insulting at worst.

Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Posted: 2016-10-15, 15:45
by Núria Harket
You're welcome ceid donn

I can't comment on what you say, I'm a Germanic languages person :wink:

I hope this can be of help for beginners

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIokUII7LX0&feature=youtu.be

Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Posted: 2016-12-28, 14:27
by iodalach93
A chairde,

Ar an gcéad rud, Nollaig shona agus Bliain Nua faoi mhaise daoibh!

Ar an dara rud, ba mhian liom ceist a chur oraibh. Tá mo cheist mar gheall ar úsaid an pháirteagal "a" roimh na hainmneacha briathartha.

An ceart a rá "Tá orm dúiseacht go moch amárach"? Nó an chaithfear a rá "Tá orm a dhúiseacht..."? Ní thuigim an riail go maith, mar - dar liom féin - úsáidtear i gcónaí leis an bpártaigeal "a" roinnt bhriathra, mar shampla "beith" ( -> a bheith).

Go raibh míle maith agaibh,

Alex

Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Posted: 2016-12-28, 23:54
by linguoboy
Más féidir leat sin a scríobh i nGaelainn, ba chóir duit a bheith ábalta an roinnt ábhartha a léamh sa Ghramadach na Gaeilge oifigiúil: http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/about/rannoganaistriuchain/ancaighdeanoifigiuil/.

Táim ábalta a rá dhuit gur eisceacht atánn in gceist le beith. Go bhfios dom, tá sí i gcónaí le fáil le séimhiú. Ar gach dóigh eile, dealraíonn sé go mbraitheann sé an bhfuil cuspóir ann. Mar sin ní déarfainn *"Tá orm a dhúiseacht go moch amárach" toisc ná fuil aon chuspóir le fáil san abairt sin. (Cf. "Tá orm é a dhúiseacht[*] go moch amárach".)


[*] Nó "...é a chur ina dhúiseacht" a mbíonn an bhriathar so neamhaistreach.

Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Posted: 2016-12-29, 12:23
by iodalach93
Go raibh míle maith agat, a Linguoboy.

Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Posted: 2017-02-04, 15:37
by iodalach93
Does anyone know how the past tense of the verb 'to be' (i.e. raibh) is pronounced in Connacht Irish? I used to think it was something like [ɾˠɛvʲ], but perhaps this is the pronunciation used in Munster Irish...

Go raibh maith agaibh

Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Posted: 2017-02-04, 17:33
by linguoboy
iodalach93 wrote:Does anyone know how the past tense of the verb 'to be' (i.e. raibh) is pronounced in Connacht Irish? I used to think it was something like [ɾˠɛvʲ], but perhaps this is the pronunciation used in Munster Irish...

Yeah, that looks very Munster. Ó Siadhail transcribes this /ro/ (i.e. [ɾɔ]) but I'm not sure how typical that is of Connacht as a whole.

Of course, in the expression go raibh maith agat, both Munster and Connacht typically have [ɾə].

Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Posted: 2017-02-04, 17:41
by iodalach93
Thank you for your quick answer, a chara.

Indeed, I thought that "go raibh maith agat" was not a good example of its pronunciation, since all the syllables are mostly unstressed except maith.

Do you yourself speak Munster Irish?

Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Posted: 2017-02-15, 18:18
by linguoboy
iodalach93 wrote:Do you yourself speak Munster Irish?

To the extant that I speak any Irish at all, yes, it's Munster. (West Cork to be precise.)

Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Posted: 2017-02-15, 20:58
by iodalach93
linguoboy wrote:To the extant that I speak any Irish at all, yes, it's Munster. (West Cork to be precise.)

May I ask you why you chose that variant in particular?

Thank you in advance!

Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Posted: 2017-02-15, 21:27
by linguoboy
iodalach93 wrote:
linguoboy wrote:To the extant that I speak any Irish at all, yes, it's Munster. (West Cork to be precise.)

May I ask you why you chose that variant in particular?

Two reasons, essentially:
  1. It's the one used in the first instructional work I acquired for learning Irish, Dillon & Ó Cróinín's Teach Yourself Irish (1961).
  2. My Irish ancestors originated in Cork (although in all likelihood they ceased to be Irish-speaking well before immigrating to the USA).
After I realised that learning would be much easier if I committed to a particular variety, I acquired Ó Cuív's The Irish of West Muskerry, Co. Cork: a phonetic study (1944), which is what Dillon & Ó Cróinín cite as the source for the pronunciations given in TYI. Ó Siadhail's Modern Irish (which I highly recommend, btw) includes many examples from West Cork in his discussions of phonological rules and grammatical patterns.

Can I ask why you decided to go with Connacht?

Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Posted: 2017-02-15, 22:07
by iodalach93
No particular reason. If a "Standard Irish" pronunciation existed and were used, I would learn that (it seems to me that the Lárchanúint exists only in theory). Since it doesn't, I decided I'd learn Connacht Irish so that I can apply its pronunciation rules to what I read. I've read that Connacht Irish is the most spoken variant and is in the middle both geographically and linguistically - correct me if I'm wrong, please - so if I ever have to speak Irish I hope I will have an accent understandable by all.

Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Posted: 2017-02-15, 22:22
by linguoboy
iodalach93 wrote:I've read that Connacht Irish is the most spoken variant and is in the middle both geographically and linguistically - correct me if I'm wrong, please - so if I ever have to speak Irish I hope I will have an accent understandable by all.

True on both counts, though some dialects (e.g. Cois Fhairrge) strike me as pretty divergent in their own right. This is reflected in the CO, which I've sometimes heard described as 50% Connacht, 40% Munster, and only 10% Ulster. (I sometimes find I have to respell CO forms in order not to get confused about the Munster pronunciations.)

Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Posted: 2017-02-16, 8:45
by kevin
Sometimes I've had the impression that at least some Connacht dialects tend to leave out half of each word, so that it's easier for me to understand a CO text spoken with a Munster accent than with a Connacht one. If I understand correctly, this is what we're talking about here, not real dialect, right?

Or maybe I've just had too little exposure to Connacht Irish yet...

Re: Tar anseo agus labhair linn! - [Irish Language Discussion]

Posted: 2017-02-16, 10:25
by iodalach93
By the way, thank you for suggesting some reference grammar books, linguoboy!

Kevin I think I understand what you mean: it seems that the Cois Fhairrge dialect drops h-sounds when in the middle of a word, and the neighbouring vowels are fused together. Yet, I don't know if that happens only in the Cois Fhairrge dialect or also in other variants of Connacht Irish.