UniLang

Ciarán12 wrote:Would the progressive form not normally be "Bhí an ghaoth fhuar ag séideadh..."? "á séideadh" implies to me that í (an bhean at i gceist) is the object of séideadh (which is fine, but that would mean it should be glossed as [at.her blowing] and not [at.its blowing]).

You're right, ag séideadh is probably better. (There's not much difference in pronunciation, of course--[a] vs [ə].) Munster speakers tend to abuse the passive progressive, so I often end up using it when I really don't need to.

Ciarán12 wrote:Also, is the verb here "séid ar" or just "séid"? If it's just "séid", what is the "uirthi" about?

That's an instance of the Irish adversative construction (also found in Hiberno-English). The classic textbook example seems to be "Bhris sé an fhuinneog orm" for "He broke my window" (HE "He broke the window on me").

linguoboy wrote:You're right, ag séideadh is probably better. (There's not much difference in pronunciation, of course--[a] vs [ə].)

There's a bit more of a difference for me than for you (my pronunciation is still quite "stiff"): [ɑ:] VS [ɛɟ]/[əɟ].

linguoboy wrote:

Ciarán12 wrote:Also, is the verb here "séid ar" or just "séid"? If it's just "séid", what is the "uirthi" about?

That's an instance of the Irish adversative construction (also found in Hiberno-English). The classic textbook example seems to be "Bhris sé an fhuinneog orm" for "He broke my window" (HE "He broke the window on me").

I was thinking that when I read it, but I wanted to make sure it wasn't related to the verb. I haven't read anything about an adversative construction, but I know/use it in English. I wasn't aware it was a HE thing.

Ciarán12 wrote:There's a bit more of a difference for me that for you (my pronunciation is still quite "stiff"): [ɑ:] VS [ɛɟ]/[əɟ].

Sounds like an overcorrection to me. The native speakers I know only have /g'/ before vowel-initial verb-nouns (e.g. ag ithe, ag éirí).

Ciarán12 wrote:I was thinking that when I read it, but I wanted to make sure it wasn't related to the verb. I haven't read anything about an adversative construction, but I know/use it in English. I wasn't aware it was a HE thing.

Yeah, it sounds a bit odd to AE-speakers outside of fixed idioms (e.g. "You've just stepped in from stepping out on me").

I was wondering, are there any broad/slender minimal pairs in Irish? By that I mean words that are very similar except for having broad consonants in one word and slender ones in the other.

Lowena wrote:I was wondering, are there any broad/slender minimal pairs in Irish? By that I mean words that are very similar except for having broad consonants in one word and slender ones in the other.

Yes, lots. In some cases how similar the pronunciations of some minimal pairs are depends on the dialect, but the following are a few examples of minimal pairs where they are identical except for the broad/slender distinction for me:

baol (danger) - béal (mouth)
labhair (speak) - leabhar (book)
lom (bare, barron) liom (with-me)
maigh (placename-element, "field") - mé (I, 1st Person Pronoun)
naoi (nine) - nígh (to wash)
uan (lamb) - uain (opportunity, time)
tae (tea) - té (who, the one/person (that...))



Of course, there's also lots instances where broadening/slenderising final consonants performs a grammatical fuction, such as pluralisation or genetive case marking on nouns and adjectives.

And--just in case anyone needed a reminder how much these things vary between dialect--here's a list of those items on Ciaran's list which are not minimal pairs in my (West Muskerry-based) dialect:

baol "danger" - béal "mouth" /beːl/ vs /bʹial/ [Note: In non-Munster dialects, generally /biːl/ vs /bʹeː/]
lom "bare" - liom "with-me" /loum/ vs /lʹum/
maigh "field [dative]" - mé "I, me" /maːgʹ/ vs /mʹeː/ [Muskerry nom-acc form is magh, pronounced [mə] in placenames, [ˈmɑː] in isolation]
naoi "nine" - nígh "wash" /nʹeː/ vs /nʹiːgʹ/

Ciarán12 wrote:Of course, there's also lots instances where broadening/slenderising final consonants performs a grammatical function, such as pluralisation or genitive case marking on nouns and adjectives.

Yeah, this is particularly characteristic of the first declension. So nom/acc sing or gen. pl. leabhar "book(s)", uan "lamb(s)" vs nom/acc pl. or gen. sing. leabhair, uain. (In some varieties, the distinction is recessive with the genitive falling out of use and the "weak" plural forms being replaced with "strong" ones, e.g. leabhraí for leabhair "books".)

Thanks! I was thinking of how I might describe the difference between broad and slender in Irish to someone that isn't knowledgeable of linguistics and wanted some examples to use.

I think some good minimal pairs for someone not used to hearing the distinction are:

beag /bʹog/ "little" vs bog /bog/ "csoft"
beo /bʹoː/ "alive" vs bó /boː/ "cow"
bí /bʹiː/ "be!" vs buí /biː/ "yellow"
bíonn /bʹiːn/ "do(es) be" vs buíon /biːn/ "band, class"
breá /bʹrʹaː/ "fine" vs brá /braː/ "throat"
cé /cʹeː/ "who" vs caoi /ceː/ "opportunity"
do shíl /dəˈhiːlʹ/ "[s/he] thought" vs do shíol /dəˈhiːl/ "your offspring"
lí /lʹiː/ "colour" vs luí /liː/ "lying"
tí /tʹiː/ "point" vs tuí /tiː/ "straw"

Ón snáithe eile:

I'd be interested to read about it, can you recommend any literature on Leinster Irish? I haven't been able to find much.

Is é "Na canúintí a theacht chun solais" (aiste le Nicholas Williams) an cuntas is fearr ar an abhar san a mhic. Tá sé le fáil ins an leabhar: "Stair na Gaeilge".

Ina theannta san, caith streacfhéachaint ar na rudaí a scríobh D.S. Piatt, an leabhar "Gaelic Dialects of Leinster" agus cuntas gearr ar Ghaelainn Longphoirt in Éigse 3, l. 32.

Ní miste "Irish dialects past and present, with chapters on Scottish and Manx" le T.F. Ó Rathaille a lua.

(Personally, the only disagreements I have with the standard are the "do mo bhualadh" type construction for the present continuous and the existence of the vocative plural for all first declension nouns.)

Why those points in particular?

Bhuel, rud ársa 'sea é an gairmeach iolra, ní bhaintear úsáid as le corradh agus trí chéad blian, seachas "fear", "garsún" agus "cearc". Níor scríobh Amhlaoibh Ua Súilleabháin é (agus níor dúirt sé é!) agus bhí ciall do chaint ardnósach ag an bhfear san. Níor dúirt a lucht comhnaoise é ach a oiread.

I dtaobh "do mo bhualadh", tá an chuid gramadaigh sin bun os cionn ar fad ins an Caighdeán. Is é an leagan ceart i nGaelainn Chlasaiceach ná "ag mo bhualadh", ach bhí tuairim aisesna saineolaithe ag casadh an chéid gur dúradh "ag mo bhualadh" san fhaí ghníomhach agus "do mo bhualadh" san fhaí chéasta, ach dheineadar tuathail, níor dúirt na filí ach "ag mo bhualadh" agus dúirt an gnáthdhuine "am bhualadh/bualadh". Níl i "do mo bhualadh" ach botún acadúla ón naoú aois déag.

An Lon Dubh wrote:Ón snáithe eile:

I'd be interested to read about it, can you recommend any literature on Leinster Irish? I haven't been able to find much.

Is é "Na canúintí a theacht chun solais" (aiste le Nicholas Williams) an cuntas is fearr ar an abhar san a mhic. Tá sé le fáil ins an leabhar: "Stair na Gaeilge".

Ina theannta san, caith streacfhéachaint ar na rudaí a scríobh D.S. Piatt, an leabhar "Gaelic Dialects of Leinster" agus cuntas gearr ar Ghaelainn Longphoirt in Éigse 3, l. 32.

Ní miste "Irish dialects past and present, with chapters on Scottish and Manx" le T.F. Ó Rathaille a lua.

Go raibh míle maith agat as na moltaí! Is cinnte go mbreathnóidh mé orthu siúd

An Lon Dubh wrote:

(Personally, the only disagreements I have with the standard are the "do mo bhualadh" type construction for the present continuous and the existence of the vocative plural for all first declension nouns.)

Why those points in particular?

Bhuel, rud ársa 'sea é an gairmeach iolra, ní bhaintear úsáid as le corradh agus trí chéad blian, seachas "fear", "garsún" agus "cearc". Níor scríobh Amhlaoibh Ua Súilleabháin é (agus níor dúirt sé é!) agus bhí ciall do chaint ardnósach ag an bhfear san. Níor dúirt a lucht comhnaoise é ach a oiread.

An Amhlaoibh Ua Súilleabháin seo ab ea é an fear atá i gceist leat, is dócha? Cén fhoirm den ainmhfhocal a bhí á úsáid acu sa ghairmeach iolra sa chás sin?

An Lon Dubh wrote:I dtaobh "do mo bhualadh", tá an chuid gramadaigh sin bun os cionn ar fad ins an Caighdeán. Is é an leagan ceart i nGaelainn Chlasaiceach ná "ag mo bhualadh", ach bhí tuairim aisesna saineolaithe ag casadh an chéid gur dúradh "ag mo bhualadh" san fhaí ghníomhach agus "do mo bhualadh" san fhaí chéasta, ach dheineadar tuathail, níor dúirt na filí ach "ag mo bhualadh" agus dúirt an gnáthdhuine "am bhualadh/bualadh". Níl i "do mo bhualadh" ach botún acadúla ón naoú aois déag.

Suimiúil go leor é sin. Tá cuma níos ciallmhaire ar an nós cainte sin agus atáthar ag féachaint ar an ngnáthnós ina ndeirtear é sin le cuspóir ainmfhoclach - "Bhí sé ag bualadh an dorais" (ní *"Bhí sé do bhualadh an dorais"). De réir Vicífhoclóir, tá giorrúchán de "ag + a" san "á" sa dhul cainte sin (agus atáthar ag baint feidhme as le cuspóir neamhainmfhoclach sa thríú pearsa), dealraíonn sé go dtagann sé sin leis.

Cad é an fhoirm a n-úsáidtear sa Ghaeltacht é?

An Amhlaoibh Ua Súilleabháin seo ab ea é an fear atá i gceist leat, is dócha? Cén fhoirm den ainmhfhocal a bhí á úsáid acu sa ghairmeach iolra sa chás sin?

Sin é an fear atá i gceist agam.

An fhoirm chéanna a deirtear sa Ghaeltacht inniu, is é sin: an t-ainmneach iolra. Mar shampla:

A chomharsana! (An Caighdeán)
A chomharsain! (An Ghaeltacht, agus gach ceantar in Éirinn dhá chéad blian ó shin.)

Cad é an fhoirm a n-úsáidtear sa Ghaeltacht é?

Mumhain:
Tá sé am bhualadh
Tá sé ad bhualadh
Tá sé á bhualadh
Tá sé á bualadh
Tá sé ár mbualadh
Tá sé bhur mbualadh
Tá sé á mbualadh

Connacht:
Tá sé go mo bhualadh
Tá sé go do bhualadh
Tá sé ghá bhualadh
Tá sé ghá bualadh
Tá sé ghá mbualadh
Tá sé ghá mbualadh
Tá sé ghá mbualadh

Uladh:
Tá sé a' mo bhualadh
Tá sé a' do bhualadh
Tá sé á bhualadh
Tá sé á bualadh
Tá sé 'ár mbualadh
Tá sé 'mur mbualadh
Tá sé á mbualadh

An Lon Dubh wrote:An fhoirm chéanna a deirtear sa Ghaeltacht inniu, is é sin: an t-ainmneach iolra. Mar shampla:

A chomharsana! (An Caighdeán)
A chomharsain! (An Ghaeltacht, agus gach ceantar in Éirinn dhá chéad blian ó shin.)

Ceart go leor. Ní bhíonn cúis agam úsáid a bhaint as an gairmeach iolra go minic, seachas le fear, buachaill, cailín...

Is iontach suimiúil iad foirmeach na mbriathra a phostáil tú ansin, tá cúpla tuairim agam orthu (agus ceisteanna)...

An Lon Dubh wrote:

Cad é an fhoirm a n-úsáidtear sa Ghaeltacht é?

Mumhain:
Tá sé am bhualadh
Tá sé ad bhualadh
Tá sé á bhualadh
Tá sé á bualadh
Tá sé ár mbualadh
Tá sé bhur mbualadh
Tá sé á mbualadh

I gcás Mumhan, feictear dom go dtarlódh sé mar seo:

ag mo > a' m' > am
ag do > a' d' > ad
ag a > a' a > á
ag ár > a' ár > 'ár > ár
ag bhur > a' bhur > 'bhur > bhur (nílim cinnte cén fáth a bhuil an "ag" cailte go hiomlán)

An Lon Dubh wrote:Connacht:
Tá sé go mo bhualadh
Tá sé go do bhualadh
Tá sé ghá bhualadh
Tá sé ghá bualadh
Tá sé ghá mbualadh
Tá sé ghá mbualadh
Tá sé ghá mbualadh

Tá sé níos castaí i gcás Connachta...

ag > go (ach níl a fhios agam conas)
ag + a > ghá (b'fhéidir ag + a > aga > agá > aghá > 'ghá > ghá ?)
Sna cásanna "ag + ár" is "ag + bhur", b'fhéidir gur thosaigh siad a bheith ag úsáid "ghá" ón rud atá ag tarlú le "ag + a"....? Ach caithfidh mé a rá, is mór an mearbhall a chuirfeadh na trí cinn dheireannacha orm....

An Lon Dubh wrote:Uladh:
Tá sé a' mo bhualadh
Tá sé a' do bhualadh
Tá sé á bhualadh
Tá sé á bualadh
Tá sé 'ár mbualadh
Tá sé 'mur mbualadh
Tá sé á mbualadh

Is éasca go leor é seo, cé is moite de 'mur, cad 'na thaobh go bhfuil an "m" sin ann?

Ceart go leor. Ní bhíonn cúis agam úsáid a bhaint as an gairmeach iolra go minic, seachas le fear, buachaill, cailín...

Bhuel, is é an gairmeach iolra an gearán is usa a mhiniú dá bhfuil agam i dtaobh chóras na hainme ins an Caighdeán, cé nách é an gearán is measa atá agam. Ní aontaím le rialacha an ghinidigh iolra leis, ach ceist chasta 'sea é sin.

ag bhur > a' bhur > 'bhur > bhur (nílim cinnte cén fáth a bhuil an "ag" cailte go hiomlán)

Gabhaim pardún agat, Deirtear "úr" seachas "bhur":

ag úr > a' úr > úr

ag > go (ach níl a fhios agam conas)

Ceapaim gur guta cúnta atá i gceist anso:

ag mo > agmo > agamo > ga mo

Sna cásanna "ag + ár" is "ag + bhur", b'fhéidir gur thosaigh siad a bheith ag úsáid "ghá" ón rud atá ag tarlú le "ag + a"....? Ach caithfidh mé a rá, is mór an mearbhall a chuirfeadh na trí cinn dheireannacha orm....

Thosnaíodar ar úsáid na foirme "ghá" fé thionchar "ag a > ghá", saghas analach 'sea é.

Is éasca go leor é seo, cé is moite de 'mur, cad 'na thaobh go bhfuil an "m" sin ann?

N'fheadar, Léifead ar do cheist.

Táim tar éis an focal "dúnamh" a fheiceáil ar fhógra ar an traein. "Dúnadh" is ea é an t-ainmfhocal briathartha ar "dún" de réir an Chaighdeáin, nach ea? Cé as an focal "dúnamh"?

Is as Conamara do, ach deirid "dúineamh", más buan mo chuimhne.

GRMA, aisteach go leor go bhfuil sé ar chomhartha poiblí, nach n-úsáideann an rialtas an CO amháin?

Dia daoibh a chairde. Is mise Brian. Tá beagán Gaeilge agam. Ag foghlaim ach tá sé deacair; níl a fhios agam aon duine labhairt na Gaeilge. Ba mhaith liom a chleachtadh anseo... Is feidir libh?

Ba mhaith liom a bheith líofa, agus má fuaime liom cosúil le amadan... inis dom, le do thoil.



I'm a native English speaker so if my Irish fails and we have to fix it in English that's fine. I want to attempt to speak Irish as much as possible, but if my ability level should be taken to a different thread, (or the rubbish bin) please don't hesitate to send me there!

Tá brón orm. Shíl mé go raibh freagra anseo nóiméad ó shin.

An bhfuil duine éigin ainmnithe Domhnaillin (linguoboy) buíochas a imirt le daoine nua?

(Edited)

BrianJ wrote:Dia daoibh a chairde. Is mise Brian. Tá beagán Gaeilge agam. Ta mé Ag foghlaim ach tá sé deacair; níl a fhios aithne agam ar aon duine atá in ann labhairt na Gaeilge Gaeilge a labhairt. Ba mhaith liom a chleachtadh anseo... Is An feidir libh liom?

Ba mhaith liom a bheith líofa, agus má fuaime liom cosúil le amadan tá cuma amaideach ar mo chuid cainte... inis dom, le do thoil.



I'm a native English speaker so if my Irish fails and we have to fix it in English that's fine. I want to attempt to speak Irish as much as possible, but if my ability level should be taken to a different thread, (or the rubbish bin) please don't hesitate to send me there!

Dia dhuit agus fáilte a Bhriain! Tá áthas i gcónaí orm fáilte a chur roimh foghlaimeoirí nua, tá súil agam go mbainfidh tú fónamh as an fóram.

If you would like corrections we can do our best to provide them when replying to your posts and feel free to ask any specific questions you have here (in Irish or English). If you are following a specific course and want to keep a running blog or you just want a place to keep all your questions for easy reference you might want to start a thread of your own (e.g. "brianJ - Gaeilge" or something).

BrianJ wrote:An bhfuil duine éigin ainmnithedarb ainm Domhnaillín (linguoboy) buíochas a imirt le daoine nua?

Tá brón orm, ach ní thuigim cad é atá tú a rá anseo. Maybe imirt has different meanings in other dialects, but I only know it as the verbal noun of imir "play", so to me this reads "playing thanks with new people" and don't know how to interpret that.