Irish Study Group

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2019-03-10, 23:44

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-03-12, 1:09

kevin wrote:Cá huair a dhéanfaidh sibh an chéad ceacht eile?

Nuair atá księżycowy réidh :?:
When księżycowy's ready

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby Yasna » 2020-12-31, 5:27

Can someone tell me if this guy's Irish pronunciation is good enough to use him as a learning resource? I'm being cautious based on all the tales I've heard of bad Irish out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KePLTQvDbGU
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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby kevin » 2020-12-31, 10:12

I've heard worse Irish, though it's certainly not the most traditional pronunciation.

In particular, I couldn't hear a broad/slender difference at least in his r (a common problem when people just use the English r for both) and his d (I'm not that familiar with Munster Irish, and I know that non-palatalised slender d is a thing there, but it should still sound different from broad d).

My recommendation would be to use teaching material that was actually recorded by native speakers rather than random Youtube videos. If you prefer videos to just a textbook with audio, I'd recommend Now You're Talking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nz--Lp ... e=emb_logo (just the videos on Youtube)
https://eolas38.wixsite.com/ultach/copy-of-aonad-1 (videos with accompanying text book lessons)

If you don't need videos, there are more good options, also for different dialects (this one focuses on Ulster).

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby linguoboy » 2021-01-01, 1:15

kevin wrote:I've heard worse Irish, though it's certainly not the most traditional pronunciation.

That's a very generous way to phrase it.

kevin wrote:In particular, I couldn't hear a broad/slender difference at least in his r (a common problem when people just use the English r for both) and his d (I'm not that familiar with Munster Irish, and I know that non-palatalised slender d is a thing there, but it should still sound different from broad d).

Was he aiming for Munster Irish? I heard him use final stress on agam and a few other words, but not at all systematically. And I didn't hear any diphthongisation before tense sonorants (which he pronounced identical to their lax counterparts in any case) no breaking of éa.

Overall, it sounded pretty typical of the kind of anglicised dialectal blend you hear from L2 speakers who had teachers from all around Ireland in their school years (although with some particularly odd features, such as pronouncing the /g/ in ag in all positions even though every traditional speaker I've heard elides this before verb-nouns beginning with a consonant). Probably fine for learning some vocab, but it you're aiming for native-like pronunciation, I would not take his as a model.

(If you're curious what native Munster Irish sounds like, here's an interview with members of the Ó Súilleabháin family of sean-nós singers. They're all native speakers of the West Muskerry variety, which is what the old TY Irish teaches and my chosen variety.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz2SauVFkSc)

kevin wrote:My recommendation would be to use teaching material that was actually recorded by native speakers rather than random Youtube videos.

Seconded. It's a pricey proposition now, being out of the print, but the work Speaking Irish: an Ghaeilge bheo was one of the single best resources I've found because it not only includes videos of speakers of all contemporary varieties of native Irish but full transcripts of their speech with grammar and usage notes. Hopefully there's something similar currently available.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby kevin » 2021-01-01, 2:32

linguoboy wrote:That's a very generous way to phrase it.

I mean, it always depends on the standards you apply. It's far from traditional native speech, but then consistently distinguishing /x/ from /k/ is already enough to automatically place you at least somewhere in the top half of Youtube Irish speakers...

Was he aiming for Munster Irish?

I think he said something like mostly Munster with a little Connacht in it. Which I guess already tells you that he's not really aiming for a specific traditional dialect.

I heard him use final stress on agam and a few other words, but not at all systematically. And I didn't hear any diphthongisation before tense sonorants (which he pronounced identical to their lax counterparts in any case) no breaking of éa.

Ah, yes. I hoped you would say something because I know these features in theory and if I heard them, I would associate them with Munster dialects, but I don't automatically notice if they are missing.

although with some particularly odd features, such as pronouncing the /g/ in ag in all positions even though every traditional speaker I've heard elides this before verb-nouns beginning with a consonant

Isn't this very typical for L2 learners? Same for "an".

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby Saim » 2021-01-01, 6:19

kevin wrote:I mean, it always depends on the standards you apply. It's far from traditional native speech, but then consistently distinguishing /x/ from /k/ is already enough to automatically place you at least somewhere in the top half of Youtube Irish speakers...


There are people broadcasting the fact that they speak Irish who put that little work into pronunciation? :shock:

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-01-01, 6:46

Saim wrote:
kevin wrote:I mean, it always depends on the standards you apply. It's far from traditional native speech, but then consistently distinguishing /x/ from /k/ is already enough to automatically place you at least somewhere in the top half of Youtube Irish speakers...


There are people broadcasting the fact that they speak Irish who put that little work into pronunciation? :shock:

Yeah, because you're lucky if you can find Irish-language content at all in many domains. I think some Irish may even argue that this is just another accent of Irish, or something, which I don't really buy.

This whole discussion has been reminding me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9ssgmqW83g
This is perhaps the only live performance of a rock song in Irish I've ever seen apart from songs that were just translated straight from English. I'm not sure this band has ever done another song in Irish. The whole clip is in Irish, yet they sing e.g. cuala instead of chuala (with /k/ instead of /x/), and no one says a word about their pronunciation or anything.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby kevin » 2021-01-01, 14:55

Saim wrote:There are people broadcasting the fact that they speak Irish who put that little work into pronunciation? :shock:

Tells you something about how overwhelming the majority of L2 speakers with bad pronunciation is compared to native speakers or learners with good pronunciation.

I'm not even sure if they can be blamed, they might not even be aware of the problem. This is how many schools teach Irish, because the teachers don't have good pronunciation either. I know some students with good Irish who say that at school they revert to an anglicised form of the language, both so that they are actually understood and because they don't want to stand out.

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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby Yasna » 2021-01-02, 16:17

Thanks for the analysis guys. I was hoping to casually gain some familiarity with Irish and pick up a few words and phrases (short, chatty Youtube videos are my favorite option for those purposes), but "far from traditional native speech" doesn't sound very enticing.
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Re: Irish Study Group

Postby linguoboy » 2021-01-03, 1:32

Honestly, you’re more likely to encounter non-traditional Irish both online and IRL and it’s easier for Anglophones to comprehend anyway.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons


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