księżyc - Gaelainn

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby kevin » 2017-11-13, 21:45

GnaG mentions a few words that still have a separate dative form in the standard: cos - cois, lámh - láimh, bróg - bróig, bos - bois, cluas - cluais, Éire - Éirinn (Irland),

But even without separate dative forms, I think it's useful to talk about a dative case. The mutations after the dative article make a lot more sense this way.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-13, 21:50

Seeing as TYI talks about the dative case, I was going to too, just because. But that's probably even better reasoning. :P

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-11-13, 21:54

księżycowy wrote:Seeing as TYI talks about the dative case, I was going to too, just because. But that's probably even better reasoning. :P

Deireadh an scéil, is it a useful concept for you? For Munster and Standard, it probably is. With Connaught, it gets confusing because several historically dative forms have supplanted the nominative/accusative. (One of the reasons Erin go bragh confused me for so long.)
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-13, 22:09

I think it is. At least for now. I'll worry about the confusion when I get into some Connacht properly. Unless you have any suggestions.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-11-13, 22:15

księżycowy wrote:I think it is. At least for now. I'll worry about the confusion when I get into some Connacht properly. Unless you have any suggestions.

Eh, I think just knowing this is a thing in those varieties (and that some of these usages have established themselves in the standard, e.g. leann, abhainn) is preparation enough.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-13, 22:24

Ok, sounds good. :)

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-14, 18:48

I'm also curious about to what degree the synthetic forms of Munster verbs are still present.
For instance, tánn tú is more prevalent (or so I think based on our previous conversations) than táoi, táir, etc.

That makes me wonder about second person forms of other verbs. Including the dependent forms of .

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-11-14, 18:53

księżycowy wrote:For instance, tánn tú is more prevalent (or so I think based on our previous conversations) than táoi, táir, etc.

taoi (gan síneadh fada). Ao and aoi are already long vowels, so there's no point in adding a diacritic.

I only ever remember seeing this form in the expression Conas taoi? Historically it's a plural which came to be used as a polite singular.
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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-14, 19:03

Ach, tá breall orm!

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-18, 14:38

Me and kevin have been discussing Irish in dEhiN TAC thread, if you're interested linguoboy. :)

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby kevin » 2017-11-18, 15:34

Bíonn muid ag caint ar an Ghaeilge i ngach áit!

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-19, 23:12

So, this might be a stupid question, but I just want to make sure:

Bím ag obair ar an bhfeirm.

TYI says that nouns following the basic prepositions (in this case ar and feirm). I want to make sure that the definite article in-between doesn't change anything, aside from the eclipsis.

Feirm would be a dative noun, right?

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby kevin » 2017-11-19, 23:22

księżycowy wrote:TYI says that nouns following the basic prepositions (in this case ar and feirm).

This sentence no verb?

I want to make sure that the definite article in-between doesn't change anything, aside from the eclipsis.

Feirm would be a dative noun, right?

Yes, it's in the dative case here, but as we discussed before, almost all nouns don't have a separate dative form. Also, the normal initial mutation caused by the preposition (lenition for "ar") doesn't affect the article. So the eclipsis of the noun caused by the dative article is the only change.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-20, 0:19

Not needed verb. :silly:

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby An Lon Dubh » 2017-12-02, 7:16

księżycowy wrote:I've been meaning to ask this for a while now, but is the dative still considered to exist in Modern Irish?

In the speech of older speakers in Munster it continues to exist as a productive case for feminine nouns only.

The same is true of literature from the 1800s and early 1900s, it's present but only for feminine nouns.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-21, 14:28

I'm trying to come up with a response to your latest sentence in the PBG game, linguoboy.

If I understand the sentence correctly, you're saying the person after you is learning a Celtic language for the first time.

My first instinct was responding with,
'Seo. Tá Gaelainn mo chéad teanga Ceilteach.
But I'm sure that's a bit to close to English, and is not all that Irish. I'm also not sure if 'seo is appropriate here, or is it should be . Actually, considering you used , that probably answers my first question. :P

But what do I need to learn or refresh to make a proper response? Unless, somehow I got it right.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby kevin » 2017-12-21, 14:57

When answering a question (or confirming/contradicting a statement), you generally repeat the verb. So as you eventually realised, the answer to linguoboy's question has to be "tá" or "níl". With the other thing you considered, I suppose you meant "Sea" = "Is ea". This only works for replying to copular questions/sentences, and in fact only some of them.

It doesn't really make sense in written communication, but if someone said "is ea" in response to linguoboy's sentence, I would understand that as "I understand what you're saying", but not necessarily as "I agree or confirm".

In your long answer you need to do the opposite: You're linking two nouns, which requires the copula rather than "tá".

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-21, 15:09

Yeah, I forgot the spelling for 'sea there for a minute. :P

Go raibh maith agat, a chaoibhín! :)

I'll retool my answer when I get a chance and post it here.

EDIT: Assuming I got the noun phrases right:
Gaelainn is ea mo chéad teanga Ceilteach.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby kevin » 2017-12-21, 15:34

księżycowy wrote:Go raibh maith agat, a Chaoimhín! :)

Go ndéana a mhaith duit.

EDIT: Assuming I got the noun phrases right:
Gaelainn is ea mo chéad teanga Ceilteach.

Nope, "Gaelainn" isn't indefinite. I'm not sure if TYI uses the same terms as GnaG, but you want an identification clause rather than a classification clause here.

(Also, "teanga" is feminine.)

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-21, 15:46

Oh, right. So.....
Is í an Gaelainn mo chéad teanga Cheilteach.

Not sure if I need the definite article again, or another í or not.

I must be getting closer anyway. :P


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