księżyc - Gaelainn

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księżycowy
Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-07, 12:22

księżycowy wrote:I'm also kicking myself for not getting the paperback + audiobook version of Séadna.

I've remedied this problem.

Now, back to TYI.

I want to make sure that I have a good grasp of the declensions of third, fourth and fifth declension nouns. As the full paradigms aren't in the back of the book*, I'd like to see how close I can come myself. (Rather then just checking with GnaG, which doesn't have all the dative forms listed for all the declensions anyway. I'm guessing that's because it's the same as other forms (nom./acc.).)

I'll post my figurings for the declensions a bit later.

*Mostly the dative and vocative are missing.

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-08, 0:50

Ok, here are my full paradigms for the third, fourth and fifth declensions:

3-ISingularPlural
Nom/Acc.an cleasna cleasa
Gen.an chleasana gcleas
Dat.don chleasdosna cleasaibh
Voc.a chleasa chleasa


3-IISingularPlural
Nom/Acc.an dochtúirna dochtúirí
Gen.an dhochtúrana ndochtúirí
Dat.don dhochtúirdosna dochtúiribh
Voc.a dhochtúira dhochtúirí


3-IIISingularPlural
Nom/Acc.an cathna cathanna
Gen.an chathana gcathanna
Dat.don chathdosna cathaibh
Voc.a chatha chathanna


3-IVSingularPlural
Nom/Acc.an altóirna haltóracha
Gen.an altórana altóracha
Dat.don altóirdosna altóiribh
Voc.a haltóira haltóracha


3-VSingularPlural
Nom/Acc.an bhliainna blianta
Gen.an blianana mblianta
Dat.don bhliaindosna bliainibh
Voc.a bhliaina bhlianta


4-ISingularPlural
Nom/Acc.an filena filí
Gen.an fhilena bhflilí
Dat.don fhiledosna filibh
Voc.a fhilea fhilí


4-IISingularPlural
Nom/Acc.an gréasaína gréasaithe
Gen.an ghréasaína ngréasaithe
Dat.don ghréasaídosna gréasaibh
Voc.a ghréasaía ghréasaithe


5-ISingularPlural
Nom/Acc.an chaorana caoirigh
Gen.an caorachna gcaoirigh
Dat.don chaoirighdosna caoiribh
Voc.a chaoraa chaoirigh


5-IISingularPlural
Nom/Acc,an carana cairde
Gen.an charadna gcairde
Dat.don charaiddosna cairdibh
Voc.a charaa chairde

[As cara is both masc. & fem., I chose one and went with the masc. declension]

5-IIISingularPlural
Nom/Acc,an riailna rialacha
Gen.an rialachna rialacha
Dat.don riaildosna rialachaibh
Voc.a riaila rialacha


I'm sure there are a few mistakes, so correct away!

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-08, 1:16

Also, I got my order from Litríocht, and I'm quite impressed with the materials.

The three smallest books (An Chearc Uisce, An Comórtas Iascaireachta and An Dochtúir) have three simple stories in them each, and there is one cd that has audio for all nine stories. There isn't much as far as a vocabulary or grammar notes (the later of which I can easily forgive), but there are a few notes on dialectal forms vs. the CO in the back (usually 1-2 pages long).
The audio is quite good. It's read twice, once slowly (very slowly in fact), and once at normal speed.
Most of the page is taken up by pictures. It kinda reminds me of picture books for kids. :P
Where as I would have loved to have longer stories, the wealth of this material is still fantastic for beginners!

An Tigh Glas has longer stories. It seems to be a bump up from the three smaller books. The only thing is it doesn't
have audio, but that's fine I guess. The reading material alone is worth it. It also has a glossary in the back like the three smaller books which again compares an chanúint to an caighdeán.

I can't wait until I get Séadna! I can wait even less until I can read it! :P
In the meantime, I'll start with one of the small books. Probably An Chearc Uisce.

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-09, 13:23

As I'm looking over my declensions, I remember that I wasn't too sure about the words that begin with vowels and the <h> "prefix" (I can't recall if that's the term or not). I'm also fuzzy on the prefixed <t>.

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-14, 14:38

In TYI Lesson XI Exercise 26A there is the verb form neosaimíd.
I can reasonably guess that that is the -imíd 1st person plural present indicative ending (i.e. "we ___"), but what is the stem? I've scoured the glossary, irregular verb appendix, and looked at the chapter in question. Hell, I even tried looking it up in the CID and Ó Dónaill! What am I missing?

EDIT: Nevermind, I finally found it under insim in the CID. Which makes sense, considering the translation in the answer key.

EDIT2: Aaaaand, I just found the footnote in Lesson XI. I thought I remembered something about a verb form beginning with <neo> in this lesson! No wonder I missed it! Not the best place for an important piece of information like that, in my opinion. At least I know I'm not going crazy anymore. :P

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-20, 8:28

I took a shot at translating "Distant lands enrich the mind" into Irish on the Translation forum. This is what I came up with:

Deinid saibhir críocha ciana an intinn.

I'm not sure about the placement of saibhir or my choice for 'mind.'
It's also conceivable I completely fudged it. :P

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-08-20, 20:35

księżycowy wrote:Deinid saibhir críocha ciana an intinn.

I'm not sure about the placement of saibhir or my choice for 'mind.'
It's also conceivable I completely fudged it. :P

I think intinn is a fine choice for "mind", but remember what I've said elsewhere about not separating the finite verb from its subject. And speaking of the finite verb, I'm curious where you found déan saibhir for "enrich". Saibhrigh strikes me as the best choice, since saibhreas a chur ar seems more narrowly literal.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-20, 21:00

I had thought of using saibhrigh actually, but I couldn't varify its usage in Munster so i thought to get with the safer (from my pov) choice and go with deinim saibhir (since I could account for both deinim and saibhir and had no prior exposure to saibhrigh). I was looking up choices in both the Cork Irish dictionary, and in de Bhaldraithe and came across both as options in de Bhaldraithe.

I'm sorry to ask this, but can you refresh my memory on what you've said before in relation to this particular example?

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-08-20, 23:52

księżycowy wrote:I'm sorry to ask this, but can you refresh my memory on what you've said before in relation to this particular example?

I don't know of any circumstances in which something else can intervene between a finite verb and its subject. The default subject position is immediately after and if the subject is emphasised, it's preposed and the main clause becomes a relative clause, so the role of grammatical subject is technically taken by relative particle which comes immediately before the finite verb. E.g.:

Saibhríonn críocha ciana an intinn.
(Is) críocha ciana a shaibhríonn an intinn.
Críocha ciana is ea a shaibhríonn an intinn.

Oh, and now I see something else I missed (and which is doubtless mentioned one time in TYI somewhere you'd easily overlook it): The only time you use 3P inflections is in place of or with a 3P pronominal subject. Otherwise a third-person verb always takes the singular form:

Cuireann na turasóir sin saibhreas orainn.
Cuirid (siad) saibhreas orainn.

According to Dillon and Ó Cróinín, "cuireann siad" is possible here as well. As Ó Siadhail points out, the use of siad with a plural form like cuirid is a marked Munster feature.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-21, 20:44

Thanks for that! I kinda remembered what we had talked about after that refresher. :D

And I hadn't picked up one the third person singular being used for plural subjects. Good to know!

Let me ask you this:
If one where inclined to use deineann saibhir in this sentence, where would saibhir go?
I assume it would take the usual spot for an adjective then. But after which? The subject or the object?
I'm curious now. :P

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-08-21, 21:15

księżycowy wrote:If one where inclined to use deineann saibhir in this sentence, where would saibhir go?
I assume it would take the usual spot for an adjective then. But after which? The subject or the object?
I'm curious now. :P

After both. The unmarked word order for an Irish sentence is:

V + S + DO + IO + adjuncts

Although non-object complements, predicate adjectives are treated as adjuncts for syntactic purposes. The relevant example from GnaG is:

Rinne sé an scian géar.

Now the only question I have is what happens with pronominal objects? Because there is a strong tendency to displace these rightward (something Ó Siadhail talks about). E.g.:

Rinne sé amach as a cheann féin é. (Ó Dónaill)

So I assume that would apply here, e.g.:

Rinne sé géar é.

I just don't have an example from a fluent speaker confirming this. There might be one in the GnaBC, but I don't really have the patience to comb through it.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-22, 14:23

So, if I understood rightly, it would be:

Deineann críocha ciana an intinn saibhir.

Or did you mean something else by "after both"?

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-08-22, 14:26

księżycowy wrote:So, if I understood rightly, it would be:

Deineann críocha ciana an intinn saibhir.

Or did you mean something else by "after both"?

No, that's my understanding, too.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-23, 21:28

I'm going through Exercise 26 (Lesson XI):
7. Bainfead an scian san den pháiste nó gortóidh sé é féin.
With the intended meaning of: "I will take the knife from the child or he will hurt himself."
Shouldn't that be baileod (i.e. bailím) instead or bainfead (i.e. bainim)?

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-08-23, 21:36

księżycowy wrote:I'm going through Exercise 26 (Lesson XI):
7. Bainfead an scian san den pháiste nó gortóidh sé é féin.
With the intended meaning of: "I will take the knife from the child or he will hurt himself."
Shouldn't that be baileod (i.e. bailím) instead or bainfead (i.e. bainim)?

Why? Bailigh has the sense of "collect" or "gather", e.g. bhailíos chúm mo chuid triosgáin "I gathered together my possessions" (PUL). Bain has a broad range of meanings, but most express some form of separation (e.g. digging out potatoes, mowing hay, picking fruit, opening a latch). And de expresses the meaning of "from" so bain de is "take from".
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-23, 21:41

I get that bainim has a broad range of meaning, but TYI at least seems to suggest that to mean "take" it should be followed by as in some form.

EDIT: I just saw the last bit in your answer. Gotcha.

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-08-23, 21:54

księżycowy wrote:I get that bainim has a broad range of meaning, but TYI at least seems to suggest that to mean "take" it should be followed by as in some form.

Keep in mind that Donncha Ó Cróinín was a native of Ballyvourney and a fluent speaker of the West Muskerry dialect. (The scholar Tomás Ó Con Cheanainn said of him "‘Is dóigh gurbh é Donncha—murabh é a dheartháir Seán—an té ba mhó eolas ar bhéaloideas Mhúscraí Uí Fhloinn.") Barring the occasional typo or editorial error, I think you can safely assume that the examples in TIY accurately reflect proper West Cork usage. So when you come across something that doesn't jive with your expectations, the question in your mind shouldn't be, "Shouldn't X really be Y?" but "What does X mean in regards to my understanding of both X and Y?"

As for bain as, the meaning seems to be more "take out of", e.g. Bain do lámh as do phóca! "Take your hand out of your pocket!" Thus its extended use in expressions like Bain sult as! "Enjoy!" (lit. "Take enjoyment out of it!").
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-23, 23:24

I'm certainly not trying to question anyone's credentials.

Perhaps they could have dealt with this a little more precisely, but it does make sense to me regardless.


You also have to admit, they are similar verbs with similar meanings (well, kinda). :P

księżycowy

Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby księżycowy » 2017-08-24, 14:17

Another question from the same exercise:
11. Do bhailíomair an t-airgead sarar imigh na daoine.
Why is it sarar?
I assume that it is a form of sara (before), but where does the <r> at the end come from?

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Re: księżyc - Gaelainn

Postby linguoboy » 2017-08-24, 14:31

księżycowy wrote:Another question from the same exercise:
11. Do bhailíomair an t-airgead sarar imigh na daoine.
Why is it sarar?
I assume that it is a form of sara (before), but where does the <r> at the end come from?

Past tense.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons


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