Kayman Shamurapay, Rimankapak : Come Here to Discuss

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bluechiron
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Kayman Shamurapay, Rimankapak : Come Here to Discuss

Postby bluechiron » 2005-05-17, 2:45

Kaypi Runa shimimanta rimanakunshunmi, chaymanta yachaykunata rimaykunawan mana chinkachinchikchu. Achka yupaichany. :D

Here is where we will discuss the Quichua language because it is better not to confuse the lessons with the discussion. Thanks a bunch. :D
Shukta shimi yuyankapak, kanpa ñawikunata wichkana ushankakunarakmi kanpa shungutawan uyankirakpish.
To know another language, first your eyes will have to be open, and you will have to listen with your heart.

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Postby Luís » 2005-05-19, 22:42

bluechiron1 wrote:Pronunciation is very similar to Spanish, although this will once again depend on the region.


Perhaps you could ellaborate a little bit more on this. Are E and O closed or open vowels? I imagine G is always hard (as in "gato"), right? And is J [x]? What does Q stand for? How is the R? How do you pronounce X? And how should one read Z? As [z], [s] or [T]?

bluechiron wrote:Conjugate: kuna (to give), yachana (to study), rantina (to buy), killkana (to write), killkakatina (to read), purina (to walk), pukllana (to play), rimana (to talk), rikuna (to see, to watch), and mikuna (to eat).


KUNA - to give

kuni
kunki
kun
kunchik
kunkichik
kunkuna

YACHANA - to study

yachani
yachanki
yachan
yachanchik
yachankichik
yachankuna

RANTINA - to buy

rantini
rantinki
rantin
rantinchik
rantinkichik
rantinkuna

KILLKANA - to write

killkani
killkanki
killkan
killkanchik
killkankichik
killkankuna

killkakatina - to read

killkakatini
killkakatinki
killkakatin
killkakatinchik
killkakatinkichik
killkakatinkuna

PURINA - to walk

purini
purinki
purin
purinchik
purinkichik
purinkuna

PUKLLANA - to play

pukllani
pukllanki
pukllan
pukllanchik
pukllankichik
pukllankuna


RIMANA - to talk

rimani
rimanki
riman
rimanchik
rimankichik
rimankuna

RIKUNA - to see, to watch

rikuni
rikunki
rikun
rikunchik
rikunkichik
rikunkuna

MIKUNA - to eat

mikuni
mikunki
mikun
mikunchik
mikunkichik
mikunkuna
Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales

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Postby bluechiron » 2005-05-19, 23:29

Good questions!

I don't speak IPA or SAMPA, but I'll do my best to answer using an unpublished text by Carmen Chuquin and Frank Soloman that we used a few years ago in class.

Luis wrote:Perhaps you could ellaborate a little bit more on this. Are E and O closed or open vowels? I imagine G is always hard (as in "gato"), right? And is J [x]? What does Q stand for? How is the R? How do you pronounce X? And how should one read Z? As [z], [s] or [T]?


Specific letters:

J - jampatu (frog). Preceding a voiced sound, this sounds like the G in game, with voiced sounds being defined as A, I, U, B, D, G, L, LL, M, N, Ñ, R, V, W, Y, and Z.

N - rinki (you go). N in sing but only when at the end of a word or preceeding G, K, W, M or R.

Q - usually a hard K. Quichua = Kichwa. Quito sounds like Kito. This is mostly used in borrowings.

R - karu (distant) / rikun (he/she sees). In all positions other than initial, this sounds like the r in Spanish pero. In the initial position it becomes an unvoiced alveopalatal fricative, slightly retroflex, such as in the Ecuatorian Sierra perro.

Z - tazin (nest). The z is equivalent to the English z in zipper.

*T, P, and K are pronounced like D, B, and hard G when they follow a nasal N.

Letter combinations:

SH - shamuna (to come). This sound is like the sh in show.

TS - tsini (nettle). This sound is like the German z as in Zeit.

TH - thiyu (sand). This is a voiceless alveolar fricative, closest to the Castillian pronunciation of caza or the English thin.

LL - llulla (liar). This is a voiced alveolar fricative, such as used in Argentine or Highland Ecuatorial Spanish, or perhaps like the second G in garage.

Ñ - ñawpa (ahead, before). This is exactly like Spanish, and the ni in onion.

CH - charina (to have). This retains the Spanish pronunciation except after N when it takes a LL sound.

NP - ñanpi (on the road). In a word the NP sounds like MB.
Shukta shimi yuyankapak, kanpa ñawikunata wichkana ushankakunarakmi kanpa shungutawan uyankirakpish.
To know another language, first your eyes will have to be open, and you will have to listen with your heart.

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Postby Luís » 2005-05-20, 0:37

bluechiron1 wrote:I don't speak IPA or SAMPA, but I'll do my best to answer using an unpublished text by Carmen Chuquin and Frank Soloman that we used a few years ago in class.


Oh. In that case, by [x] I mean the sound of Spanish 'j' or German 'ch' in 'Bach'. By [T] I mean English 'th' as in 'thin'. In Spain 'z' is like 'th', but in Latin America it's like 's'. I was not sure what kind of Spanish you had in mind... The same about the 'll': In some places it's like 'y', in others it's a bit like English 'j', in Argentina it sounds almost like 'sh', etc.

So J actually sounds like G most of the time? Gee...
But how does it sound before unvoiced sounds then?
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Postby Stan » 2005-05-20, 16:11

Oh so THAT is the language in your sig bluechiron! :wink:

I've always wanted to learn a Amerindian language. I've got some questions though.

1) How difficult is Quechua (to an English speaker) ?
2) What does it sound like? Are there any sound files online I could listen to?

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Postby Luís » 2005-05-20, 22:11

I have another question. Since we have suffixes for the subject (-ka) and for the object (-ta), is it possible to change the word order (which I assume is normally SOV). I.e., are the following sentences acceptable?

Apiyuta kanka rantinki.

Antawatata mamaka ministin.
Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales

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Postby bluechiron » 2005-05-20, 23:33

Luís wrote:So J actually sounds like G most of the time? Gee...
But how does it sound before unvoiced sounds then?


Yes, J usually sounds like a G, which sounds like a K, but only before voiced sounds. The good news is that with Unified spelling (which is still under some debate), most Js before voiced sounds have turned into Ks.

Kulkiyuj (now kulkiyuk) is not preceeding a voiced sound, and sounds like a glottal stop with a slight h sound (similar to the Yucatec pronoun K). When you add a suffix, such as kulkiyujmi (now kulkiyukmi) it becomes a G or K sound.

We'll get to the -yuk and -mi suffixes a little later on.
Shukta shimi yuyankapak, kanpa ñawikunata wichkana ushankakunarakmi kanpa shungutawan uyankirakpish.
To know another language, first your eyes will have to be open, and you will have to listen with your heart.

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Postby bluechiron » 2005-05-20, 23:58

Stancel wrote:Oh so THAT is the language in your sig bluechiron! :wink:


You could ask too, that's partly what the community is here for. :wink:

Stancel wrote:I've always wanted to learn a Amerindian language. I've got some questions though.

1) How difficult is Quechua (to an English speaker) ?
2) What does it sound like? Are there any sound files online I could listen to?


Everyone should learn indigenous languages, especially ones that they might have contact with, either in the future or in their lives.

Having said that, I cannot answer your questions except by saying that the difficulty of a language depends on 1) your goals; 2) the amount of time you are willing to put in; 3) your motivation; 4) prior language learning, and in the case of Amerindian languages, linguistic experience; 5) natural talent for language acquisition; and 6) your ability to find a partner(s) with who(m) to practise. These are all questions that you have to answer.

If you have a good grasp of Spanish grammar, you will probably do fairly well. Because of the language transference and borrowings during the colonial era, there are Quechua dialects with large amounts of Spanish (and vice versa). The syntax is very different, but certainly graspable if you understand the SOV order, which we haven't yet encountered in the lessons (unlike Yucatec). My best suggestion is to follow along, try your hand at the exercises (we should have a more involved one posted soon) and see how it feels to you.

Online sources for Quichua are dismal. Quechua has a few other options. If you own it, Transparent Language's 101 Languages of the World has Peruvian Quechua. It doesn't include information on where the dialect is spoken, but is spoken with an extremely heavy Spanish influence. If you're intent on Peruvian Quechua, a new course is being completed here: http://www.quechuanetwork.org/framed.cf ... una&lang=s (Spanish-Quechua). Some sound files are included, and the portions of the course I've looked at, not being an expert mind you, seem fairly sound.
Shukta shimi yuyankapak, kanpa ñawikunata wichkana ushankakunarakmi kanpa shungutawan uyankirakpish.
To know another language, first your eyes will have to be open, and you will have to listen with your heart.

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Postby bluechiron » 2005-05-21, 0:03

Luís wrote:I have another question. Since we have suffixes for the subject (-ka) and for the object (-ta), is it possible to change the word order (which I assume is normally SOV). I.e., are the following sentences acceptable?

Apiyuta kanka rantinki.

Antawatata mamaka ministin.


You're right, this is a SOV language. But even with the -ka and -ta markers, this order doesn't change. So you have to say:

Kanka apiyuta rantinkimi.

Mamaka antawatata ministinmi.


We haven't discussed the -mi, but it will be in the next lesson. It's an affirmative particle, which is not obligatory, used here to affirm the sentences as facts.
Shukta shimi yuyankapak, kanpa ñawikunata wichkana ushankakunarakmi kanpa shungutawan uyankirakpish.
To know another language, first your eyes will have to be open, and you will have to listen with your heart.

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Postby alois » 2005-05-21, 17:09

Hi bluechiron! :)

I'm sooo glad to see a quichua course here! I'm totally up to learn any Amerindian language, I just love them.

Unfortunately, I don't think I'm going to be online often in the next days though, yet I'll try to check the lessons wherever I happen to be.

Would you tell me more about what kind of "fieldwork" it's about? Anthropology?

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One question...

Postby Rikita » 2005-05-22, 2:52

In Ecuador, is there at all an argument between defenders of Trivocalism and Pentavocalism, as there is in Peru? I.e. the argument if the distinction of o and u, and e and i in writing is necessary or not?

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Postby Martin K » 2005-05-22, 18:03

Imanalla!
I can't believe there's finally a Kichwa course here. I wanted to start one about a year ago but I haven't had the time lately. Thanks for taking the initiative, bluechiron1.
Ecuador mamallaktamanta kankichu, kaypi runa shimita yachakurkankichu?
Ñukaka Kitumanta kanimi. Kunan runa shimitapash shuar shimitapash yachakukunimi.

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Postby Stan » 2005-05-24, 3:21

Here's my try at the first exercise:

KUNA - to give

kuni
kunki
kun
kunchik
kunkichik
kunkuna

YACHANA - to study

yachani
yachanki
yachan
yachanchik
yachankichik
yachankuna

RANTINA - to buy

rantini
rantinki
rantin
rantinchik
rantinkichik
rantinkuna

KILLKANA - to write

killkani
killkanki
killkan
killkanchik
killkankichik
killkankuna

PURINA - to walk

purini
purinki
purin
purinchik
purinkichik
purinkuna

PUKLLANA - to play

pukllani
pukllanki
pukllan
pukllanchik
pukllankichik
pukllankuna

RIMANA - to talk

rimani
rimanki
riman
rimanchik
rimankichik
rimankuna

RIKUNA - to see

rikuni
rikunki
rikun
rikunchik
rikunkichik
rikunkuna

MIKUNA - to eat

mikuni
mikunki
mikun
mikunchik
mikunkichik
mikunkuna

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Postby Stan » 2005-05-24, 4:00

R: Imanalla, Pedro. Imashina kanki?

Hi, Pedro. How are you?

P: Allimi, Rodolfo. Imashina kanki?

Good, Rodolfo. How are you?

R: Allimi. Pedro, mikunata munankichu? Paltata charinimi.

Good. Pedro, do you want to eat? I have avocado.

P: Mana mikunata munanichu. Wasipi mikuni.

No, I don't want to eat. I eat at home.

R: Paltata kunimi. Wasipi mikunki.

I give avocado. You eat at home.

I hope I didn't make any mistakes.

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Postby Luís » 2005-05-24, 22:00

Here's Exercise 2:

R: Hello, Pedro. How are you?
P: Quite good, Rodolfo. How are you?
R: Quite good, Pedro. Do you want to eat? I have avocado.
P: No, I don't want to eat. I eat at home.
R: I give (you) the avocado. You eat (it) at home.
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Postby Zoroa » 2005-06-02, 12:32

Hey folks,

I love Quechua and I lived for 2 months and a half in a remote village in the Peruvian Andes. I learnt some Quechua before going there and tried to practise a bit.

Just a question Bluechiron and others : In Peruvian Quechua, they use qa as a topical marker (like Japanese wa). Is it the same as the particle you talked about (-ka, in opposition to -ta) ?

Zoroa ;)
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Postby bluechiron » 2005-06-02, 15:37

Yes, Zoroa.

-Qa is the Peruvian equivalent to the Ecuatorian -ka. Good observation!

Depending on the region in Peru/Bolivia, the -qa can be guttoral and almost have a -ra sound, whereas the -ka is pronounced in the mouth.

Where did you live in Peru?
Shukta shimi yuyankapak, kanpa ñawikunata wichkana ushankakunarakmi kanpa shungutawan uyankirakpish.
To know another language, first your eyes will have to be open, and you will have to listen with your heart.

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Postby Stan » 2005-06-02, 15:44

does this site use peruvian or ecuatorian?
http://qu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qhapaq_panka
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Postby Zoroa » 2005-06-02, 15:49

I was in Lircay, "close" to Huancavelica.

Zoroa :)
Deviens qui tu es !

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Postby bluechiron » 2005-06-02, 17:41

Stancel wrote:does this site use peruvian or ecuatorian?
http://qu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qhapaq_panka


Ecuatorian Quichua doesn't have the "qh" combination, so it's not Quichua for sure.

It's either Peruvian or Bolivian, and with the current state of affairs, most likely Peruvian. Keep in mind that Quechua has a different alphabet than Quichua, with letters such as k' and t' (full glottal stop) so you can always differentiate.
Shukta shimi yuyankapak, kanpa ñawikunata wichkana ushankakunarakmi kanpa shungutawan uyankirakpish.
To know another language, first your eyes will have to be open, and you will have to listen with your heart.


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