Tupi (Tupinambá) Lessons

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Postby E}{pugnator » 2003-10-21, 12:36

Yeah, I'm having en eye on it...I'm too lazy/busy for doing exercises through forum posts, though...I enjoy the linguistical discussions...

As for the other guy, I posted a message at the Tupi thread in the main forum telling about this class here, don't know if he has seen this yet.

But I guess that people will arrive here...People are amazed with doing exercises at this forum...

Anyways, how close to the book text these lessons are? Tell me whether it's necessary to rewrite the lessons or not in order to publish them at the main Unilang page without breaking copyright...
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Postby Pittsboy » 2003-10-21, 20:22

The texts are the same, but grammatical points and exercises are my own...
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Postby Pittsboy » 2003-10-24, 6:41

Grammar Focus

1) - Kó abá tupinikyîa. Ixé morubixaba. Abápe endé?
- These natives are Tupi. I am the chief. Who are you?

a) -> this demonstrative is used when something is NEAR and is VISIBLE from the person who is speaking.
eg. Kó uru = this bowl

b) just to remember that in Tupi there is no verb corresponding to 'to be', so we get: Kó abá tupinikyîa = These natives (are) Tupi; and also Ixé morubixaba = I (am) the chief.

2)- Aîpó peró onhemokyriri~. Abá nhe'enga oîkóéeté.
That Portuguese shuts up. The natives' language is very different

a) AÎPÓ -> this demonstrative is used when something is FAR and OUT OF SIGHT from the person who is speaking.
eg. Aîpó kunhã = that woman

b) ikóéeté means, 'to be very different', it is just the composition of 'ikó + é' and eté is the adverb meaning 'a lot, very', note that it is used just after the verb, in the sentence.

3)- Abá, a'e riré, peró ygarusupe osó. Morubixaba abé akûeî karaíba iru~namo osó.
The natives, later on, go to the ship of the Portuguese. The chief also goes with those white men.

a) a'e riré -> remember that a'e mean 'that one' BUT they also work as a demonstrative which refers to what has been said before; when we put it together with riré then we get after that or 'after what has just been said'...

b) abé = also, too

c) a-kûeî = those (earlier mentioned), this demonstrative is the conbination of -a which refers to something said before in the sentence and kûeî which is a demonstrative which refers to things or people that ae FAR but still VISIBLE.

d) karaíba = white man/men

e) iru~namo = with (companion of)

4)- Aîpó abá ygarusupe okaru. Abá ygarusupe oker.
Those natives eat at the ship. The natives sleep on the ship.

a) karu = to eat

b) ker = to sleep

5)- Oîebyr a'e riré.
They come back later on.

a) îebyra = to come back

b) a'e rire = later on, after all that, which has been said
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Hurray!

Postby Psi-Lord » 2003-10-24, 18:55

Hey, Thi, because of your lessons, I've been able to translate the title of an article about Tupi on my own! :) It was:

Abá Nhe'enga Oîebyr
The Indians' Language Is Back

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
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Postby E}{pugnator » 2003-10-24, 19:06

Show us this article! Looks interesting!!!
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Postby Psi-Lord » 2003-10-24, 19:22

E}{pugnator wrote:Show us this article! Looks interesting!!!

http://www.nautilus.com.br/~ensjo/tupi/ ... iebyr.html

E antes que algum boi-corneta faça o comentário (não é nada com você, E}{pugnator, não se preocupe, hehehe... É só uma mensagem geral.), eu sei que há a tradução do título do artigo logo abaixo. O que quis dizer com "traduzi sozinho" foi que eu consegui traduzir antes mesmo de bater o olho na linha traduzida. :)
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Postby Pittsboy » 2003-10-24, 19:31

Psiliku, apesar de tudo o que dizem do Navarro, a aula dele é moiiiito chata hehehe ele diz logo de cara que detesta lingüística (o que se pdoe notar pelas explicações gramaticais confusas do livro dele) e ele tentou transformar o curso de Tupi em aula de cultura Tupi, no ano que eu fiz... e por coincidência ele é do interior, e, pra meu espanto descobri, conversando com ele, que ele foi aluno de história da madrinha da minha tia hehehe e ele sempre vai pra minha cidade nas férias ;)
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Postby Psi-Lord » 2003-10-24, 19:39

Pittsboy wrote:Psiliku, apesar de tudo o que dizem do Navarro, a aula dele é moiiiito chata hehehe ele diz logo de cara que detesta lingüística (o que se pdoe notar pelas explicações gramaticais confusas do livro dele) e ele tentou transformar o curso de Tupi em aula de cultura Tupi, no ano que eu fiz... e por coincidência ele é do interior, e, pra meu espanto descobri, conversando com ele, que ele foi aluno de história da madrinha da minha tia hehehe e ele sempre vai pra minha cidade nas férias ;)

Ai, meu Deus, e depois tem quem diga que o mundo não é pequeno! :lol: Bem, com as suas aulas eu tô me divertindo pra caramba, então fico feliz. :)
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Postby Pittsboy » 2003-10-24, 19:51

Personal Pronouns

Tupi has, of course :lol: , two classes of personal pronouns:

1st Class:
ixé - I
endé - you
a'e - he (that one)
oré - we (excl)
îandé - we (incl)
pe'~e - you
a'e - they (those ones)
asé - we (univeral), equivalent to French 'on'

2nd Class:
xe - I
nde or ne - you
i - he, she
oré - we (excl)
îandé - we (incl)
pe - you
i - they

How to use the two classes?

--> Use 2nd Class pronouns with Adjectives... note that 'i' (he, she) is only used herein.

xe porang - I (am) cute
nde porang - you (are) cute
nde katu - you (are) good
i katu - they (are) good

and so on...

--> Both classes can be used with nouns, except the 3rd person singular 'i', which in subject position can only be used with adjectives. They can be written after or before nouns.

xe morubixaba - I (am) the chief
Ixé morubixaba - I (am) the chief
Morubixaba ixé - I (am) the chief (if this pronouns does not precede any other word in the sentence, ixé is preferred)

endé peró - you (are) Portuguese
nde peró - you (are) Portuguese
peró endé - you (are) Portuguese

a'e abá - he is a native
NEVER: i abá, because 'abá' is a noun and 'i' is only used with adjectives.

--> ASÉ is used as the same as the indefinite French 'on' or Portuguese 'a gente' or even '-se' as in 'Come-se be na sua casa'.
When we say 'We will die eventually', Asé must be used, for asé refers back to all humankind. Asé requires a 3rd person verb form.

Asé oîkobé, asé omanõ = we (all, including 'he, you and I) live, we die.

Asé okarueté São Paulope = We eat very well in São Paulo
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Postby Pittsboy » 2003-10-24, 20:01

Adjectives

Adjectives can be attributive and predicative

Attributive

'y-pyranga = red river

Predicative

'y i pyrang = the river (is) red (lit. the river, it (is) red

What's the difference between the two?

Attributives are directly associated with the noun they modify and predicatives are associated via a linking verb. In Tupi, as said before, there's no 'to be' verb, so we attach an -a after the adjective.

--> If the subject is a noun, the predicative adjective must have the 'i' pronoun coming before it, which is a 'pleonastic' subject (reinforcement subject).

Kunhã i katu = the woman, she (is) kind
Kunhã i porang = the woman, she (is) cute

--> When the adjective is attributive, the -a suffix is attached to the end of the verb IF it ends in consonant
Last edited by Pittsboy on 2003-10-24, 20:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Pittsboy » 2003-10-24, 20:26

Demonstratives

Tupi distinguishes demonstratives concerning proximity and visibility.

Demonstratives which has an initial 'a' convey things that are not visible

a) 'ã kurum~i = this boy (near and invisible)
'ãng itá = this stone (near and invisible) - before vowels 'ã becomes 'ãng

b) kó pirá = this fish (near and visible)

c) ebokûeî pirá = this fish (near and visible) --> 'ebo' is used to say that the object is near and visible to the person to whom you are talking to

d) kûeî kunhã = that woman (far and visible)

e) akûeî kurum~i = that boy (far and invisible)

f) aîpó kunhã = that woman (far and invisible)

Demonstratives can be either adjective-like (follow nouns) or noun-like (function as nouns)...
--> when they are noun-like: they usually get an -a attached in its end or even the -ba'e suffix. The ones ending in vowels may appear without any suffix when functioning as nouns...

e.g.
Kó kunhã osó, akûeîa opytá - This woman goes, that one stays.

Mba'epe aîpó? - What's that?

* Note that both underlined words function as nouns...

- Kó peró oker, kûeîba'e okaru - This Portuguese man sleeps, that one eats.

- Kóba'e tatu - This is an armandillo

-Ã morubixaba onhe'eng, kûeîa onhemokyrir~i - This chief speaks, that one shuts up.

-Abápe aîpó? - Who is this?

Demonstratives starting with an a- or ebo- are also used to make reference to what has already been said in the sentence.

Kurum~i onhan. Aîpó kurum~i, a'e riré, oker - the boys runs. This boy, afterwards, sleeps.
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Postby Psi-Lord » 2003-10-26, 5:09

Agora a coisa deu uma complicada, hehehe... Mas longe de me fazer perder o interesse, muito pelo contrário. :)

Thi, e já que você muitas vezes gosta de fazer tudo certinho (como quando queria usar o AFI ao invés do SAMPA), já pensou em substituir os Es, Is e Us nasais usando o "Inserir símbolo" do Word para trocar "~e", "~i" e "~u" por , ĩ e ũ? É o que tenho feito na cópia que estou escrevendo pra mim do seu curso.

And now, a more on topic question... I've read that, when you use adjectives attributively in Tupi, you have to write it as one single word with the noun. Is that correct? Such as 'kunhãporanga' (as opposed to 'kunhã i porang')? And are there any special rules when linking Tupi words? I mean, there are so many expressions and words that seem to combine into a different one by mutating some of their sounds when joined...
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Postby Pittsboy » 2003-10-26, 6:08

Psi-Lord wrote:Agora a coisa deu uma complicada, hehehe... Mas longe de me fazer perder o interesse, muito pelo contrário. :)

Thi, e já que você muitas vezes gosta de fazer tudo certinho (como quando queria usar o AFI ao invés do SAMPA), já pensou em substituir os Es, Is e Us nasais usando o "Inserir símbolo" do Word para trocar "~e", "~i" e "~u" por , ĩ e ũ? É o que tenho feito na cópia que estou escrevendo pra mim do seu curso.


Eu redijo diretamente no forum mas posso ver se funciona colando do word pra cá inserindo símbolo, o que eu naum faço por vc né??

And now, a more on topic question... I've read that, when you use adjectives attributively in Tupi, you have to write it as one single word with the noun. Is that correct? Such as 'kunhãporanga' (as opposed to 'kunhã i porang')? And are there any special rules when linking Tupi words? I mean, there are so many expressions and words that seem to combine into a different one by mutating some of their sounds when joined...


That's true, 'attributivelly' you write the words as a whole... linking rules in Tupi are confusing... remember when I said I am creating the grammar out of the texts? Navarro's coursebook is sort of messed up about these rules... I will (try to)explain them later on, when we get more in depth in Tupi...
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Postby Psi-Lord » 2003-10-26, 6:48

Pittsboy wrote:Eu redijo diretamente no forum mas posso ver se funciona colando do word pra cá inserindo símbolo, o que eu naum faço por vc né??

Hehehehehe, só eu sendo palpiteiro, liga não. ;)

Pittsboy wrote:That's true, 'attributivelly' you write the words as a whole... linking rules in Tupi are confusing... remember when I said I am creating the grammar out of the texts? Navarro's coursebook is sort of messed up about these rules... I will (try to)explain them later on, when we get more in depth in Tupi...

I bet they aren't easy, hehehe... Okay, let's wait for them when it's time to, then — I certainly don't want to end up confused about it. :)

I took the time to read about pronouns at Abanhe'enga Rogûera and just one thing — wow! :shock: I never expected it to be that complex!...
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Postby E}{pugnator » 2003-10-26, 11:15

Eh, realmente, agora deu uma complicada básica...

Quanto aos e, i, u com til, eu acho que vai ser ruim pra mim porque eu não tenho a fonte com o IPA todinho instalada, acho.
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Postby Psi-Lord » 2003-10-26, 11:19

E}{pugnator wrote:Quanto aos e, i, u com til, eu acho que vai ser ruim pra mim porque eu não tenho a fonte com o IPA todinho instalada, acho.

Talvez não, E}{pugnator — eu uso ou Arial ou Times New Roman pra visualizá-los. Ou as suas são versões mais antigas?
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Postby E}{pugnator » 2003-10-26, 11:40

Well, I don't know how IE will work it out, I've seen squares in place of less known IPA symbols several times, but we can try it.
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Postby Pittsboy » 2003-10-27, 0:08

Pra vc ver quão ridícula era a idéia de que povos 'primitivos' falavam línguas primitivas... :?
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Postby Pittsboy » 2003-10-28, 7:10

Tupi or not Tupi, that's the question!!

Psiliku, I am at my parenst and as soon as I get in SP I will post some exercises for you... keep on training vocabulary!
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Postby Psi-Lord » 2003-10-28, 12:13

Pittsboy wrote:Psiliku, I am at my parenst and as soon as I get in SP I will post some exercises for you... keep on training vocabulary!

Vou ter de confiar na minha memória visual por um tempo pro tupi — não consigo me acostumar a lê-lo de jeito nenhum... :roll: Mas pode mandar ver nos exercícios, já que vai ser ótimo pra saber se estou mesmo entendendo as coisas até agora. :)
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