Massimiliano's Powwow Thread

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Massimiliano's Powwow Thread

Postby Massimiliano B » 2017-11-30, 21:27

I'll focus on Ditidaht and maybe I'll do also other languages, probably Mohawk, Creek, and possibly other ones (Hopi?).

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Re: Massimiliano's Powwow Thread

Postby Massimiliano B » 2017-12-02, 12:11

I would like to try to study here multiple languages, because I like to understand their differences and similarities. The languages I'll focus on are: Ditidaht (Wakashan), Oneida (Iroquoian), Creek (Muskogean), Blackfoot (Algonquian), Hopi (Uto-Aztecan), Eastern Aleut (Eskimo-Aleutian), Salish-Pend D'Oreille - also known as Montana Salish (Salishan) - and maybe different ones. Do you think this is too much? Is it better to focus on one language?


Ditidaht (spoken in Vancouver Island - Canada)

a)ʔačqik. -- Who-you-interr. = Who are you?

b)ʔux̌ʷs John. I-(affirmative) John = I am John


Hopi (spolen in Arizona)

a) Um hin maatsiwa? -- You how to-be-named? = What is your name?

b) Nu' Ron yan maatsiwa -- I Ron thus to-be-named. = My name is Ron


Eastern Aleut (spoken in the Aleutian islands -- Alaska)

Ayagaadax̂ chitaayakux̂ -- Girl-(x̂ =singular) to-be-reading-(x̂ =singular) = The girl is reading


Oneida (spoken in the State of New York, Wisconsin and Ontario)

Kunolúhkwa -- I-you(ku-)-to-love (-noluhkwa) = I love you


Creek (spoken in Oklahoma and Florida)

Heyv cokvt ǒs -- This book-subj is = This is a book [v is a schwa]


Blackfoot (spoken in Alberta and Montana)

Nitapotaki anom -- I-(ni-)-to-work(-apotaki) here = I work here


Montana Salish (spoken in Montana)

swe ɫu askʷest? -- What your-name? = What is your name?
Last edited by Massimiliano B on 2017-12-11, 20:44, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Massimiliano's Powwow Thread

Postby dEhiN » 2017-12-02, 12:43

Massimiliano B wrote:Do you think this is too much? Is it better to focus on one language?

I think it depends on what you want to achieve with this Powwow/NAILC. You mentioned about seeing the differences between these languages (which all seem to be from different families). So perhaps doing a comparison instead of trying to learn as much as you can in one language will be fine? I think if, for example, you wanted to get to an A2 level in all those languages simultaneously, that might be a big goal and might be difficult to do. But approaching your Powwow as a comparison of different NAILs is probably doable. But this is just my opinion, so ultimately it's your call. You could start with what you're doing, and if you find it too much, change it.
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Re: Massimiliano's Powwow Thread

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-02, 13:12

Wow, you've got a pretty respectable spread there. :)

Also, I second what dEhiN said. It's ultimately up to you as to what you want to do with your NAILC and what you want to do with the language(s) you've chosen. I see no issue with doing that many languages, as long as you don't expect to get to an A2 level, as dEhiN says.

I know that if you continue like this, I'll be interested to see what you post about a few of the languages. Namely Aleut, Oneida and Montana Salish.

I'm still tossing the idea around of doing at least two languages for my NAILC. :P

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Re: Massimiliano's Powwow Thread

Postby Massimiliano B » 2017-12-02, 14:32

Thank you all, dEhiN and księżycowy. So, I will continue this thread the way I have begun it. And I don't exclude the possibility that more languages will be included in my list.
Last edited by Massimiliano B on 2017-12-02, 23:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Massimiliano's Powwow Thread

Postby dEhiN » 2017-12-02, 15:04

Massimiliano B wrote:esxclude

I wasn't sure if that was a typo or not, but just in case. ;)
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Re: Massimiliano's Powwow Thread

Postby Massimiliano B » 2017-12-02, 15:09

dEhiN wrote:
Massimiliano B wrote:esxclude

I wasn't sure if that was a typo or not, but just in case. ;)


That's a typo. In Italian that verb is "escludere", so my fingers are used to write it with -s-. Thank you!

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Re: Massimiliano's Powwow Thread

Postby dEhiN » 2017-12-02, 15:17

Massimiliano B wrote:That's a typo. In Italian that verb is "escludere", so my fingers are used to write it with -s-. Thank you!

Di niente! Also, it sounds better to say "used to writing it". I'm not sure why but after "used to", we put the verb in the gerund form.
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Re: Massimiliano's Powwow Thread

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-02, 15:20

I'm curious what you're using for Aleut, Massimiliano.

I also notice you're specifying Eastern Aleut.

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Re: Massimiliano's Powwow Thread

Postby Massimiliano B » 2017-12-02, 15:22

dEhiN wrote:
Massimiliano B wrote:That's a typo. In Italian that verb is "escludere", so my fingers are used to write it with -s-. Thank you!

Di niente! Also, it sounds better to say "used to writing it". I'm not sure why but after "used to", we put the verb in the gerund form.


I often think that I should improve my English!! Unfortunately, I like North American indigenous languages more than English!

księżycowy wrote:I'm curious what you're using for Aleut, Massimiliano.

I also notice you're specifying Eastern Aleut.


I use Kawalangim tunugan kaduugingin - Eastern Aleut grammar and lexicon. The site Titus Didactica has a copy of it.

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Re: Massimiliano's Powwow Thread

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-02, 15:29

Ah, I see. Well have fun!

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Re: Massimiliano's Powwow Thread

Postby Salajane » 2017-12-02, 15:39

Massimiliano B wrote:I often think that I should improve my English!! Unfortunately, I like North American indigenous languages more than English!

You are not the only one. :)
I like a lot of languages more than English.
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Re: Massimiliano's Powwow Thread

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-02, 15:42

Hell, even I like a lot of other languages more than English. :P

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Re: Massimiliano's Powwow Thread

Postby Massimiliano B » 2017-12-02, 15:47

I love all languages... from 0 to 10, I would give 10 to the languages I like, and 9.9 to the languages that are less interesting to me.

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Re: Massimiliano's Powwow Thread

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-12-03, 3:24

Massimiliano, if you don't mind me asking, what are you hoping to achieve in trying to learn all these languages? I hate to be a party pooper, but if you learn more languages than you're normally comfortable learning at the same time, you might not get anywhere; I say this as someone who's doing just that! :lol:

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Re: Massimiliano's Powwow Thread

Postby dEhiN » 2017-12-03, 9:30

vijayjohn wrote:Massimiliano, if you don't mind me asking, what are you hoping to achieve in trying to learn all these languages? I hate to be a party pooper, but if you learn more languages than you're normally comfortable learning at the same time, you might not get anywhere; I say this as someone who's doing just that! :lol:

But I think that all depends on what he defines as "learning these languages". If his goals are more of a comparative journey, then they wouldn't fall under the typical meaning of "learn a language".
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Re: Massimiliano's Powwow Thread

Postby Massimiliano B » 2017-12-03, 10:10

vijayjohn wrote:Massimiliano, if you don't mind me asking, what are you hoping to achieve in trying to learn all these languages? I hate to be a party pooper, but if you learn more languages than you're normally comfortable learning at the same time, you might not get anywhere; I say this as someone who's doing just that! :lol:


dEhiN wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Massimiliano, if you don't mind me asking, what are you hoping to achieve in trying to learn all these languages? I hate to be a party pooper, but if you learn more languages than you're normally comfortable learning at the same time, you might not get anywhere; I say this as someone who's doing just that! :lol:

But I think that all depends on what he defines as "learning these languages". If his goals are more of a comparative journey, then they wouldn't fall under the typical meaning of "learn a language".


I don't know what I'm hoping to achieve in trying to "learn" these languages. I think I want at least to make a "comparative journey", as dEhiN says, since this is what I usually do with NAILs - apart from Montana Salish, which I studied more deeply.

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Re: Massimiliano's Powwow Thread

Postby Massimiliano B » 2017-12-03, 22:28

I'll add some explanations to my previous post.


Ditidaht

I use An introduction to Nitinaht Language and Culture, by Tom Hess and John Thomas

ʔ is a glottal stop.
č is like ch in 'chin'
q is a voiceless uvular stop, like the Arabic letter ق
x̌ is a voiceless uvular fricative /X/ - like ch in the German word/surname 'Bach'
ʷ is a labialization, like English w


a)ʔačqik. -- Who-you-interr. = Who are you?
b)ʔux̌ʷs John. to-be-I(affirmative) John = I am John

a) ʔačqii yaa. -- who-IIIp. that-one? = Who is he?
b) ʔux̌ʷʔa Paul. -- to-be-he(affirm.) Paul = He is Paul.

a)ʔačqiks. -- Who-I-interr. =Who am I
b) ʔux̌ʷas William. -- to-be-you(affirm.) William = You are William.

ʔačqiks. -- Who-I-interr. = Who am I?
ʔačqik. -- Who-you-interr. = Who are you?
ʔačqii yaa. -- who-he-interr. that-one = Who is he?
ʔačqikid. -- who-we-interr. = Who are we?
ʔačqiksu. -- who-you-all-interr. = Who are you all?

The stem ʔač- means "who?", while the suffixes used for questions are -qiks (I), -qik "you", -qii "he/she/it", -qikid "we", -qiksu "you all". The book does not give the form for the third person plural. These suffixes are called "informational" and are used with words that are inherently interrogative. They are open questions which requires open answers.
The stem ʔux̌ʷ - is composed of the "non interrogative root" ʔu-, "often used in contexts where the information is not new" (p. 106), and x̌ (being) (p. 129). The labialization (ʷ) is probably the effect of the preceding vowel "u".
The suffixes -s in ʔux̌ʷs (I am) is the first person singular affirmative; -ʔas in ʔux̌ʷas (you are) is the second person singular affirmative; -ʔa in ʔux̌ʷa (he/she/it is) is the third person singular affirmative.



Hopi

I use Lessons in Hopi, by Milo Calectaca.

' is a glottal stop.

a) Um hin maatsiwa? -- You how to-be-named? = What is your name?
b) Nu' Ron yan maatsiwa -- I Ron thus to-be-named. = My name is Ron

Nu' means "I", um means "you", itam means "we"
Nu' pitu means "I arrive", um pitu means "you arrive" etc... The verb seems very easy, at least for the moment.



Eastern Aleut

I use Kawalangim tunugan kaduuǧingin - Eastern Aleut Grammar and Lexicon, by Knut Bergsland and Moses Dirks.

is a voiceless uvular fricative /X/ - like ch in the German word/surname 'Bach'
x is a voiceless velar fricative, like the letter x in Russian.

Ayagaadax̂ chitaayakux̂ -- Girl-(x̂ =singular) to-be-reading-(x̂ =singular) = The girl is reading
Ayagaadan chitaayakun -- Girls to-be-reading-plur. = The girls are reading
Ayagadax chitaayakux -- girl-(dual) to-be-reading = Two girl are reading

Ayagaada means "girl". The ending - indicates the singular, apparently both of the nouns and of the verb. -n is the plural. x is the dual ending.



Oneida

I use Oneida teaching grammar, by Clifford Abbot.

The letter h is pronounced even before consonants.

Kunolúhkwa -- I-you(ku-)-to-love (-noluhkwa) = I love you.
Sknolùhkwa -- You-me-to-love = You love me

The last syllable (-kwa) of the verb is whispered. In the prefix ku- 'I' is the doer and 'you' is the receiver. In the prefix sk-, "you" is the doer and "I" is the receiver.



Creek

I use Pum opunvkv, pun yvhiketv, pun fulletv - Our language, our songs, our way, by Jack Martin, Margaret Mauldin, Gloria McCarty.

c = as "chin".
v is a schwa.
e = short "i" as in "hit".
o = long "o" as in "code".
ǒ = short "o" as "hotel".
i = like "ay" in "day".
Double consonants are geminated, as in Italian, Japanese, or Arabic
The sequence sh is pronounced s-h.

Heyv cokvt ǒs -- This book-subject is = This is a book.
Mv eshoccickvt ǒs -- That pen-subject is = That is a pen.
Heyv cokvt ǒwv -- This book-subj is-interr. = Is this a book

The suffix -t is the definit article. The verb "to be" is ǒs in the affirmative form. The interrogative form is ǒwv.



Blackfoot

I use Amskapi pikuni language lessons.

Nitapotaki anóm -- I-(ni-)-to-work(-apotaki) / here = I work here. The letter -t- is a "go-between"
Kitapotaki -- you(sing)-to-work = You work.
Nitapotakihpinan -- we-to-work-(we) = We work
Kitapotakihpuwaw -- you-plur-to-work-(you.plur) = you all work.

Ni- "I", ki- "you", ni-verb-hpinan "we", ki-verb-hpuwaw "you all"
Apotaki = "to work".


Montana Salish

I use A beginning course in Salish and Pend d'Oreille Dialect

ɫ is a voiceless alveolar lateral fricative.
ʷ is a labialization, like English w.

swe ɫu askʷest? -- What / (secondary-importance) / your-name? = What is your name?
John ɫu iskʷest -- John(secondary-importance) my-name = My name is John.

Swe means "what". The prefix a- means "your-singular", while the prefix i- means "my). Skʷest means "name". ɫu means "secondary in importance", but after six years I still struggle to understand its correct use. It indicates that the following word is already known - that is, it is the topic (what is being talked about). Indeed, when we ask a person's name, we already know that they have a name. We don't know what it is.
Last edited by Massimiliano B on 2017-12-11, 20:46, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Massimiliano's Powwow Thread

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-03, 22:49

Massimiliano B wrote:
Oneida

Are you using the stuff from here to learn some Oneida? I'm just curious. :P

The letter h is pronounced even before consonants.

Which is quite typical in Iroquoian languages.
The only thing that throws me off a bit is <sh> in Cayuga (and possibly Oneida and Mohawk).
I know that at least in Cayuga <sh> can represent either /sʰ/ or /ʃ/. I'm kinda glad that Seneca spells these differently: <sh> = /sʰ/ and <š> = /ʃ/.

Ditidaht

So far, at least as far as my knowledge of both language families is concerned, Wakashan languages remind me a good bit of Salishan languages.

Montana Salish

I'd love to learn a Salish language. Maybe next Powwow, as much as I don't want to wait that long. *sigh*

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you used the materials found here at least in part to learn some Selish, right?

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Re: Massimiliano's Powwow Thread

Postby Massimiliano B » 2017-12-04, 1:34

Yes, I use those sites.

Wakashan languages are very similar to Salishan languages. Ditidaht is very close in some respects to Lushootseed. Both underwent the same sound change: m and n became b and d.


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