księżyc - Muskogee

User avatar
księżycowy
Posts: 13125
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

księżyc - Muskogee

Postby księżycowy » 2012-04-03, 20:22

So, I'm picking up the NAIL torch again. After all, what kind of leader would I be if I didn't do at least one! 8-)

I'm going with Muskogee (a.k.a. Creek), as it's one of the first NAILs I ever looked into and got resources for. Plus it has a very interesting grammar (from what I've read so far). I've been fiddling with it the past few days.

I'm using the textbook, Beginning Creek: Mvskoke Emponvkv by Innes, Alexander, and Tilkens. Which is a great textbook, though a bit technical.

The first two chapters cover pronunciation. I'm only going over the first chapter for now.

Alphabet:
a - like a in father
c - like ch in church
e - like i in pit
́́ē - like i in machine
f - like English f
h - "
i - like ay in bay
k - like English
l - "
m - "
n - "
o - like o in go (pure though, not diphthongized), also like oo in book
p - like English
r - not found in English /ɬ/
s - like English
t - "
u - like oo in book
v - schwa /ə/
w - like English
y - "

These are approximate values, of course.

It should also be noted that under certain circumstances <c>, <k>, <t>, <p>, and <s> can be voiced. This seems to be at the beginning of words, before vowels, and in consonant clusters where the second sound is voiced (much like other NAILs I've studied).
Also note that <v> represents a vowel sound, and <r> represents /ɬ/.

The vowels all have long and short variations, except for <i> which is always long:




longshort
av
ēe
i
oo, u


Note however, that Muskogee spelling is a bit inconsistent in this regard. Thus <a> is not always the long vowel /aː/ and <v> does not always represent the short vowel /ə/. Also, both <o> and <u> represent the short /o/ sound and <o> represents both the long /o:/ and short /o/ form of that vowel.

The next chapter goes over the tonal accent, that should be interesting. I wasn't even aware that Muskogee had tones. :partyhat:

Socrates
Posts: 12
Joined: 2012-03-24, 12:30
Real Name: Rich
Gender: male
Country: GB United Kingdom (United Kingdom)

Re: księży - Muskogee

Postby Socrates » 2012-04-04, 8:16

I wish you resolve in your quest.

My initial examination of Mvskoke led me to scratch my head. It has rather curious orthography, where "e" and "i" seem to have swapped positions as far as logical pronunciation is concerned. Is this due to the (presumably English-speaking) person/s who first decided to commit the language to paper?

User avatar
księżycowy
Posts: 13125
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księży - Muskogee

Postby księżycowy » 2012-04-04, 11:49

Thanks.

And I often wonder that myself. :hmm:

It is confusing to my English mind to see <e> and have to think /ɪ/ and see <i> and have to think /ɛj/. :para:

Of course the writing system is kind of messed up anyway. Thank god the glossary in the back has a phonetic representation of all the words, so when I'm in doubt I'll look there.

User avatar
księżycowy
Posts: 13125
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księży - Muskogee

Postby księżycowy » 2012-04-13, 0:57

Hmmmmm. It appears that after looking through the book, the writing system isn't as screwball as I thought. Well, that's a good thing!

So anyway, I've just started to dive into chapter 2. It's basically on syllable structure and the tonal accent. I'm still working through it, so nothing to post yet, but my guess is that by tomorrow or Saturday I'll have something to post.

And I've ordered the second volume, Intermediate Creek. I'm hoping the cds that come with that book have some of the dialogues from both volumes. I mean the audio that comes with the first volume isn't bad. In fact, it's very good. But not a lot of it is keyed to the text! So, it's a bit frustrating. But either way, I'll stick with it. :wink:

Socrates
Posts: 12
Joined: 2012-03-24, 12:30
Real Name: Rich
Gender: male
Country: GB United Kingdom (United Kingdom)

Re: księży - Muskogee

Postby Socrates » 2012-04-13, 11:56

Glad to see you're continuing and that the writing system isn't quite as discombobulatory.

I've been meaning to ask you something: in your magnificent Resources thread you have included a set of 3 pdf files - Martin, Jack; et al - Pum Opunvkv, Pun Yvhiketv, Pun Fulletv (Creek Textbook). Are these worth looking at in order to learn Creek?

I've managed to obtain a copy of Intermediate Creek, but shan't be able to acquire the all important Beginning volume for quite some time. Would those three pdf efforts be useful or do they differ too much from Beginning Creek? In other words, would it be more realistic for me to wait until I've got Beginning Creek before, well, beginning Creek?

Best regards,
Rich

User avatar
księżycowy
Posts: 13125
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księży - Muskogee

Postby księżycowy » 2012-04-13, 12:43

Hmmmmm. Well, the pdf files are to a draft version of a textbook, which quite frankly I doubt will see the light of day now that Beginning and Intermediate Creek are out.

They are good lessons.
I'm not sure what to tell you. Though I guess I'd lean more towards waiting til you can get Beginning Creek. But feel free to try the pdfs if you're itching to get started, it certainly can't hurt. They do do a marvelous job representing the pronunciation.

User avatar
księżycowy
Posts: 13125
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księży - Muskogee

Postby księżycowy » 2012-04-16, 12:54

I'd also note that some of the vocabulary is different. I'm not sure if it's suppose to be another dialect, or if it's just errors.
Upon another look, some of the grammar can be confusing, so I'd wait for the book if I were you.

Socrates
Posts: 12
Joined: 2012-03-24, 12:30
Real Name: Rich
Gender: male
Country: GB United Kingdom (United Kingdom)

Re: księży - Muskogee

Postby Socrates » 2012-04-17, 6:41

Thanks for the warning!

Bit of a shame, though. I was quite enjoying the treatment of the verb. The concept of the dependent or interrogative inflection reminded me vaguely of the Celtic, as did the use of the verb "to be" as an auxiliary in verbal constructions. Another (purely coincidental, of course) similarity with the Celtic was the verb "it rains" which is "oskes" in the pdf version. In Scots Gaelic it is "tha e an t-UISCE ann" and the Welsh river name "USK" retains the Brythonic equivalent. I don't know if you're familiar with the medieval semi-legend of Madoc, who allegedly sailed to America from Wales. Even if true, it is doubtful he and his followers would have had much, if any, influence on the native languages, but it amuses me to keep an eye out for it.

The verb grades look fascinating as well.

I rather suspect I shall save up for absolutely ages and buy the Beginning Creek text book, since the pdf has definitely engaged my interest.

Slightly off topic (but it seems over the top to create a separate one) I am also enjoying looking at the pdf of Oneida from your Resources thread. It has surprisingly decent detail for so short a text, and the embedded sound files for pronunciation are supremely useful.

User avatar
księżycowy
Posts: 13125
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księży - Muskogee

Postby księżycowy » 2012-04-17, 11:21

Yes, actually I am familiar with that legend. It is interesting to look out for such things, though I'm quite skeptical, as you are, of the supposed journey. And as you said, even if it did happen, I doubt it would effect the native languages all that much (if at all).

And, yes I was looking at Intermediate Creek, (getting a bit ahead of myself :P) and was quite fascinated to look at the glosses from the example sentences!

As for Oneida, I simply love the Iroquois languages! Can't wait to get my new Mohawk textbook!

One last thing I will add in regards to the Creek pdfs. I'm far from an expert to know how much of the textbook is incorrect (if any), or incomplete. It could be a workable text, especially seeing as you have Intermediate Creek. Either way, I'd recommend getting Beginning Creek when you can, but I think you're doing that. :wink:

User avatar
księżycowy
Posts: 13125
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księży - Muskogee

Postby księżycowy » 2012-04-23, 23:54

Ok, time for another update. It’s going to be a "small" one, as this chapter is a bit much to get through in one shot.

Syllables:
This should seem familiar to a lot of you.
There are two types of syllables in Muskogee, light and heavy.

Light syllables: v, Cv, vC
Heavy syllables: V, CV, CvC, CVC
(v = short vowel, V = long vowel, C = consonant)

Tones:
Now it's time for the fun stuff. :twisted:

But first some terminology.
Key syllable - determines where the tone pattern of the word. There are "always key" syllables and plain old "key syllables." We'll be going over the plain old ones here today. There are ways of figuring out where the key syllable lies (no matter which kind it is).

In "Light" Words:
These are words that have only light syllables.

-The key syllable is placed on the last even numbered syllable.
For example:
coko (key = ko)
kometv (key = me)
vmefuce (key = ce)
pohetv (key = he)
So, as we can see through these examples, the key syllable falls most often on either the penultimate or final syllable. This effects the tone as well.

Penultimate syllable: The key syllable is higher then the other syllables.
Last syllable: All of the tones are an even low tone.

So, to use our example words,
Penultimate first:
ko-me-tv
3 - 2 - 4
(4 = lowest tone, 2 = highest tone)
(As can be seen the initial syllable has a lower tone, and the last syllable has the lowest tone.)
po-he-tv
3 - 2 - 4

Last syllables:
co-ko
3 - 3
v-me-fu-ce
4- 3- 3- 3
(Again, the initial tone is lower then the latter syllables, but the last syllable is even with the rest)

I think that should do it for now. It was a bit to take in for me.
I think it's still sinking in. :lol:

More on tones to come!

User avatar
Lauren
Posts: 3581
Joined: 2012-04-09, 7:50
Real Name: Lauren
Gender: female
Location: Seattle, WA
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: księży - Muskogee

Postby Lauren » 2012-04-24, 2:48

It's good to see that tones are easy to determine - I was worried that there was no easy way to tell, and the orthography didn't indicate it. :)
Native:            (en-US)
Advanced:       (eu)
Just started:    (cs)
Trans woman  Image

User avatar
księżycowy
Posts: 13125
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księży - Muskogee

Postby księżycowy » 2012-04-24, 11:29

Yes indeed! :wink:

That would have killed it for me.

User avatar
księżycowy
Posts: 13125
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księży - Muskogee

Postby księżycowy » 2012-05-08, 21:07

As much as I'd hate to do this, I'm putting Muskogee on hold. Much like a lot of my other indigenous languages, unfortunately.

With my growing influence around here, I'm slowly taking over! Mwahaha! :twisted: But seriously, seeing as I have three sub-forums to mod now, and I would like to learn at least one language per sub-forum, I'm going to go with the one's I have the most stuff for and are the most interesting to me. And ones that I could seriously help people with quite easily and thoroughly.

I hope to get back to some of these other one's I've left by the way side, but time shall tell.

So, which NAIL will I do? Lushootseed. It only makes sense, as I have two textbooks, three readers (audio for all of that) and can easily get a dictionary for it. So I can take that one quite far, and be able to help people quite easily with it, should they want/need it. [Should have thought of this before. :whistle: Oh, and Massimiliano hasn't helped much, posting all that Montana Salish and what not. :P ]

As for CSAILs and Eskimo-Aleut, I'll worry about them after I'm done with some of these I'm doing now.

User avatar
księżycowy
Posts: 13125
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księży - Muskogee

Postby księżycowy » 2012-05-11, 19:20

No! No! No! I'm sticking with one of my "projects" this time! But I'll leave it off my SAC.

Lushootseed can be the one to wait (as I haven't started it yet anyway :P ). But Lushootseed will be one of the next ones, it's too cool to push off for too long. 8-)

So, back to the tones! That way I can actually start getting into the grammar!

I was listening to some stories recently, and I have to say that it's hard to hear the tones. It's more like an accent to my ears, except when the tone dips down in a word instead of up.
Another I find troubling is the lack of any explination of nasal vowels. But to my understanding that only pertains to certain grammar features, so hopefully I'll find that as I go alone. Or perhaps in this dialect of Creek there simply is no nasalization. The nasalization found in other Muskogean languages has been lessened to a great degree in Creek/Muskogee to begin with, so guess I'll just see what the textbook says as I move through it, if it says anything at all.

Regardless, here are the rest of the rules to figure out the tone pattern of words.

Words with Light and Heavy Syllables:
- We need to look at how many light tones are after the last high tone.
- If only one light syllable after the last high syllable -> key syllable on penultimate
- If more then one light syllable after last high tone -> key syllable on final even numbered light syllable

Examples:
(L = light syllable; H = heavy)

honvnwv -> LHL -> key = nvn
hoporrenkv -> LHHL -> key = ren
tafvmpuce -> HHLL -> key = ce
mvhakv-cuko -> LHLLL -> key = cu

The tones are figured the same as for the light syllable only words.

And now just a note on "Always Key" syllables. They haven't explained any more about these (as they will cover these in the following lessons) but to say that if two "Always key" syllables are in a word the first one always becomes the key syllable.

Next time: actual grammar!

User avatar
księżycowy
Posts: 13125
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księży - Muskogee

Postby księżycowy » 2012-06-01, 21:04

Well, I'm putting this on hold. I've kind of lost my interest (though I'm sure I'll swing back around some day), and I want to get a head start on the CSAILC (which is two months away) and focus on my Quechua.

When this years Powwow comes around in a few months I might do some Creek, but I'll see what I'm thinking closer to the date, as it's still a ways off.


Return to “North American Indigenous Languages”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest