Massimiliano - Montana Salish (Séliš) (Salish-Pend d'Oreille)

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Massimiliano B
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Massimiliano - Montana Salish (Séliš) (Salish-Pend d'Oreille)

Postby Massimiliano B » 2011-11-02, 13:37

Welcome to my thread! :) This is the first time I begin a thread and I take
part in a TAC. I know I should learn first how to speak and write a good
English, but I have only one life and there are 6000 languages in the
world!

I'll be learning a bit of Montana Salish language, a term which includes
both Bitterroot Salish (also known as Flathead or Seliš) and Pend
d'Oreilles. The Kalispel (Qalispé) language is very close to Pend
d'Oreilles. I don't know whether the term Montana Salish is to be used
to refer also to Kalispel. Anyway, all the three languages are spoken in
the Flathead Reservation, in Montana. The Spokane (Npoqínišcn) language
differs a bit form the other three varieties, and it is spoken in the
state of Washington. My thread is dedicated to Montana Salish
(especially Bitterroot Salish), but since the four varieties are very
similar, I'll use the resources I've found for all of them.

I choose Montana Salish especially because I like its consonant
clusters. One of the first sentences of the Kalispel lessons resources
(it's a PDF document I found here:
http://www.kalispeltribe.com/kalispel-i-curriculum/) is:
ećščénˊ
? (How are you?). means 'you' and
ećščénˊ is 'happen'. The 'w' of is only a
voiceless whisper made with rounded lips, like a little puff.
ć is pronounced [ts] like german or italian z, š
is pronounced [ʃ] (as in shame) and č is [tʃ] (as in chin).
There are neither vowels nor schwa in this consonant cluster.

If you want to listen how Montana Salish sounds, look at this video. I
think the variety is Bitterroot Salish (Seliš):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxJvx9sO ... ideo_title
Last edited by Massimiliano B on 2018-11-05, 1:11, edited 33 times in total.

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Re: NAILC 2011 Massimiliano Montana Salish-Kalispel

Postby księżycowy » 2011-11-02, 16:53

Massimiliano B wrote:I choose this language especially because I like its consonant clusters. One of the first sentences of the Kalispel lessons resources (it's a PDF document I found here: http://www.kalispeltribe.com/kalispel-i-curriculum/) is: kʷ ećščen? (How are you?). kʷ means 'you' and ećščen is 'happen'. The 'w' of kʷ is only a voiceless whisper made with rounded lips, like a little puff. ć is [ts] like german or italian z, š is [ʃ] (as in shame) and č is [tʃ] (as in chin). There are neither vowels nor schwa in this consonant cluster.

Got to love the Salish languages. I love them for the same reason! They're the Georgians* of North America! :mrgreen:


*Country, not state. Just to be clear.

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Re: NAILC 2011 Massimiliano Montana Salish-Kalispel

Postby Massimiliano B » 2011-11-02, 23:28

I already love the salishan languages :)

In my first post I've used the letter ć, but the right letter is a c and an apostrophe like this (’) over the letter. I cannot type it on my keyboard. I will type c’. The correct pronunciation of this letter is [ts’]: after ts, the air must be stopped and then released. It is the so called glottal stop. A consonant followed by a glottal stop is called also an ejective consonant.

There are many ejective consonants in Montana Salish:
p’
t’
kʷ’
q’
qʷ’
c’ (pronounced ts’)
č’ (pronounced tʃ’)
ƛ’(pronounced tɬʼ). This is a sequence of t and ɬ. The letter ɬ is like an "unvoiced l".

There are also the glottalized consonants mʼ, nʼ, and lʼ. In salish texts this glottal stop is written with an apostrophe over the letter, like the other ejective consonants, while in some scientific papers the right symbol of phonetic notation (ʔ) is used: ʔm, ʔn, ʔl. This symbol is put before these consonants because the glottal stop precedes them. So it's not a real stop, but just an initial stroke made by the glottis. Their pronunciation should be ʔəm, ʔən, and ʔəl.

This link has all the sounds of the Spokane variety of the Montana Salish language: http://spokanelanguage.com/AlphabetMoviePage.htm
Last edited by Massimiliano B on 2011-12-30, 11:57, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: NAILC 2011 Massimiliano Montana Salish-Kalispel

Postby księżycowy » 2011-11-02, 23:45

Massimiliano B wrote:In my first post I've used the letter ć, but the right letter is a c and an apostrophe like this (’) over the letter. I cannot type it on my keyboard.

They don't seem to have a specific keyboard for Kalispel, but here is a site that might help.

I have the Lushootseed keyboard, and it allows me to type c̓.

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Re: NAILC 2011 Massimiliano Montana Salish-Kalispel

Postby Massimiliano B » 2011-11-04, 1:14

Thank you, księżycowy :D . Now I can write the right letters! I tried to install a keyboard for Kalispel that I found on another site, but I had given up because after downloading it I could not make it work.

I can now write all the Montana Salish alphabet:

a c c̓ č č̓ e h i k kʷ k̓ʷ l l̓ ɫ ƛ̓ m m̓ n n̓ o p p̓ q q̓ qʷ q̓ʷ s š t t̓ u x̣ x̣ʷ w w̓ xʷ y y̓

The Spokane variety has also r.

Despite the consonant clusters and the polysynthetic structure of Montana Salish, I do not think that this might be a word or a sentence :D. But maybe I'm wrong :).
Last edited by Massimiliano B on 2012-11-08, 23:42, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: NAILC 2011 Massimiliano Montana Salish-Kalispel

Postby Massimiliano B » 2011-11-04, 21:52

Today I worked on the verb conjugation.

What is a noun in English is a verb in Montana Salish (as in many American Indian languages): therefore each "name" contains within it the verb 'to be'. This means that there's no word, for example, for "house", but that there's a word that means "it's a house".

There are transitive and intransitive pronouns. Let's begin with the intransitive ones, which are used with intransitive verbs:

čn = 'I'.

= 'you'.

qeʔ = 'we'. ('ʔ' is a glottal stop and 'q' is a voiceless uvular plosive)

p = 'you plural'.

The third person singular is unmarked.


The basic form of the verb is the past tense. I'll use the verb 'to speak' (qʷlqʷélt). The paradigm is:

čn qʷlqʷélt = I spoke

kʷ qʷlqʷélt = you spoke

qʷlqʷélt = he/she spoke

qe qʷlqʷélt = we spoke

p qʷlqʷélt = you (plural) spoke

qʷlqʷéʔelt = they spoke


As one can see, a ʔ infix in the stem and a repetition of the vowel of the stem indicate a third person plural subject.



In the present tense -es is added at the end of pronouns and -i at the and of the verb.


čnes qʷlqʷélti = I am speaking

kʷes qʷlqʷélti = you are speaking

es qʷlqʷélti = he/she is speaking

qe es qʷlqʷélti = we are speaking

pes qʷlqʷélti = you (plural) are speaking

es qʷlqʷéʔelti = they are speaking



That's enough for today :)
Last edited by Massimiliano B on 2011-11-29, 1:00, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: NAILC 2011 Massimiliano Montana Salish-Kalispel

Postby Struthiomimus » 2011-11-05, 3:23

Massimiliano B wrote:čn qʷlqʷélt = I spoke

kʷ qʷlqʷélt = you spoke

qʷlqʷélt = he/she spoke

qe qʷlqʷélt = we spoke

p qʷlqʷélt = you (plural) spoke

qʷlqʷéʔelt = they spoke


...

I don't even know where to begin to attempt to pronounce these... :doggy: :doggy: :doggy:
[flag=]wbp[/flag] [flag=]qu[/flag] [flag=]eo[/flag] [flag=]wo[/flag] [flag=]rom[/flag] [flag=]csb[/flag] [flag=]lkt[/flag]

"Beshav me akana kai le chirikle chi gilaban." kaj, "Beidh ceol, caint agus craic againn."

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Re: NAILC 2011 Massimiliano Montana Salish-Kalispel

Postby Kaylee » 2011-11-05, 4:42

Interesting. It actually, not a lot though, reminds me of Lakhota! :mrgreen:

Do you perhaps have a chart for pronunciation? Because like Struthiomimus , I have no idea how to pronounce it. :blush:
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Learning:lkt (lkt) Next: ru (ru) af (af) bo (bo) ar (ar) cy (cy)/gd (gd)

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Re: NAILC 2011 Massimiliano Montana Salish-Kalispel

Postby księżycowy » 2011-11-05, 10:44

Struthiomimus wrote:
I don't even know where to begin to attempt to pronounce these... :doggy: :doggy: :doggy:

Kaylee wrote:
Do you perhaps have a chart for pronunciation? Because like Struthiomimus , I have no idea how to pronounce it. :blush:


Thanks to my studying some Lushootseed (on hiatus), I can give a go at them. But damn! These are something else. And I though that Lushootseed was bad! :shock:

Though, I am curious, I know of the lessons you're using Massimiliano from the one website, but they (as far as I can tell) don't have any grammar explanations, were are you getting those from?

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Re: NAILC 2011 Massimiliano Montana Salish-Kalispel

Postby Massimiliano B » 2011-11-05, 15:59

I've found the following resources on internet:

For Bitterroot Salish (Seliš) I have the Selish Dictionary and these lessons.

For Kalispel I have this.

For Spokane I have this grammar and this site.


Then I' found this very beautiful book. It's the first grammar description of the Kalispel-Spokane-Flathead language (Flathead is a term which refers to both Bitterroot Salish - also known as Seliš - and Pend d'Oreilles). Here you can find informations about the author of this book. The book is written in Latin. I understand it a bit because I studied it at school and my language is its son :).

I have also some scientific papers.



Now I try to explain the pronunciation, as far as I understand it:

a = like the a in 'father'.
c = like the ts in 'beats'.
= this is a glottalized ts. This is the glottal stop.
č = like the ch in 'chin'.
č̓ = is a glottalized ch. It's a ch followed by a glottal stop. See here.
e = like the e in 'bed'.
h = like the h in 'house'.
i = like the i in 'big'.
k = like the k in 'skin'.
= it's a labialized k. See here for labialization.
k̓ ʷ = it's a k + labialization then a glottal stop.
l = like the l in blade.
= glottalized l. It's an l preceded by a glottal stop: [ʔel].
ɫ = It's a "voiceless l". Listen here.
ƛ̓ = It's a t + ɫ sound. Here is a description of the sound.
m = like the m in 'moon'.
= glottalized m [ʔem].
n = like the n in 'night'.
= glottalized n [ʔen].
o = like the o in 'pot'.
p = like the p in 'stop'.
= bilabial ejective.
q = It's a voiceless uvular plosive.
= an uvular ejective.
= it's a labialized 'q'.
q̓ ʷ = It's a glottalized labialized q (=qʷ than a glottal stop).
s = like the s in 'sand'.
š = like the sh 'she'.
t = like the t in 'sport'.
= an alveolar ejective.
u = like the oo in 'spoon'.
w = it's like the w in 'wall'.
= it's a w preceded by a glottal stop [ʔw].
= It's a voiceless uvular fricative.
= it's a labialized x. it's a [x] with rounded lips.
x̣ʷ = It is a labialized voiceless uvular fricative.
y = it's a palatal approximant, like y in 'yes'.
= it's an palatal approximant preceded by a glottal stop [ʔj].
ʔ = this is the glottal stop between two vowels. For example: qʷlqʷéʔelt (they spoke).
ʕ = pharingeal)
ʕʷ = pharingeal with rounded lips
ʔʕ= glottalized pharingeal (!!)
ʔʕʷ = glottalized pharingeal with rounded lips :shock: )
ə = it's the schwa. Usually it is not written in Montana Salish. It is inserted in some consonant clusters

Look here if you want some information about the phonology of Montana Salish in general and here for the phonology of Spokane - which is slightly different from the other three varieties.
Last edited by Massimiliano B on 2013-01-10, 1:22, edited 13 times in total.

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Re: NAILC 2011 Massimiliano Montana Salish-Kalispel

Postby księżycowy » 2011-11-05, 16:13

Interesting, thanks!

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Re: NAILC 2011 Massimiliano Montana Salish-Kalispel

Postby Massimiliano B » 2011-11-07, 14:51

Struthiomimus wrote:
Massimiliano B wrote:čn qʷlqʷélt = I spoke

kʷ qʷlqʷélt = you spoke

qʷlqʷélt = he/she spoke

qe qʷlqʷélt = we spoke

p qʷlqʷélt = you (plural) spoke

qʷlqʷéʔelt = they spoke


...

I don't even know where to begin to attempt to pronounce these... :doggy: :doggy: :doggy:


All the Salishan languages have complicated consonant clusters. All the consonants you find in a word must be pronounced. A schwa can be added before some letters such as m, n, l.

There are many terrifying words and sentence-words in Montana Salish language. I've found this one in the Selish dictionary (page 126): scčq́mq́milš :shock: (s-ts-ch-q-ʔm-q-ʔm-i-l-sh), which means 'something that's been discussed'. There are lots of consonant clusters even in simple words:

sčkʷƛ̓us [s-ch-q(u)-tɬʔ-u-s] = eye.

The plural is

sčkʷƛ̓kʷƛ̓us = eyes (many words form the plural by a reduplication of the stem or a part of it).



There are obviously long and strange consonant clusters even in sentences of everyday use:


ʔa x̣est skʷekʷst = Hello, good morning.

ńem eɫwíčntsn [e-ɫ-wi-ch-ən-t-s-ən]= See you (singular) later.

ńem eɫwíčtmn [e-ɫ-w-i-ch-t-m-ən]= See you (plural) later.

That's why I love this language :) !
Last edited by Massimiliano B on 2012-11-07, 16:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NAILC 2011 Massimiliano Montana Salish-Kalispel

Postby Massimiliano B » 2011-11-07, 23:29

As I already said, in Montana Salish there is a set of personal pronouns which are used with intransitive verbs. I forgot to say that they are also used with active verbs, when the object is not specified by the verb.


Here are the form for the past tense:

čn = 'I'.

= 'you'.

No personal pronoun = he/she/it

qeʔ = 'we'

p = 'you (plural).

No personal pronoun = they (a ʔ infix in the verb stem and a repetition of the vowel of the stem indicates a third person plural subject).


This is the present tense. The suffix es indicates a present action, like the present continuous in english:

čnes = I-now

kʷes = you-now

es = (he/she/it)-now

qe es = we-now

pes = you all-now

es = they-now ( + ʔ infix in the verb stem and a repetition of the vowel of the stem).


The following are the future personal pronouns. The suffix qs indicates a future action:

čiqs = I-will

kʷqs = you-will

qs = (he/she/it)-will

qeqs = we-will

pqs = you all - will

qs = they-will (+ ʔ infix and a repetition of the vowel of the verb stem)


This is the future of qʷlqʷélt (to speak). An i is added at the end of the verb, as in the present tense:

čiqs qʷlqʷélti = I will speak

kʷqs qʷlqʷélti = you will speak

qs qʷlqʷélti = he/she will speak

qeqs qʷlqʷélti = we will speak

pqs qʷlqʷélti = you will speak

qs qʷlqʷéʔelti = they will speak

That's all for today :)
Last edited by Massimiliano B on 2012-11-07, 16:14, edited 19 times in total.

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Re: NAILC 2011 Massimiliano Montana Salish-Kalispel

Postby Massimiliano B » 2011-11-07, 23:36

księżycowy wrote:Though, I am curious, I know of the lessons you're using Massimiliano from the one website, but they (as far as I can tell) don't have any grammar explanations, were are you getting those from?


I forgot to put in the list of links this important link. In this site, there is a section with recordered words in Kalispel.
Last edited by Massimiliano B on 2011-11-08, 13:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NAILC 2011 Massimiliano Montana Salish-Kalispel

Postby Struthiomimus » 2011-11-08, 3:45

Massimiliano B wrote:Now I try to explain the pronunciation, as far as I understand it:


Wow! Thanks for such a thorough explanation, Massimiliano! :D

Massimiliano B wrote:There are many terrifying words and sentence-words in Montana Salish language.


Massimiliano B wrote:That's why I love this language :) !


So you like to be terrified? :doggy: :mrgreen:
[flag=]wbp[/flag] [flag=]qu[/flag] [flag=]eo[/flag] [flag=]wo[/flag] [flag=]rom[/flag] [flag=]csb[/flag] [flag=]lkt[/flag]

"Beshav me akana kai le chirikle chi gilaban." kaj, "Beidh ceol, caint agus craic againn."

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Re: NAILC 2011 Massimiliano Montana Salish-Kalispel

Postby Massimiliano B » 2011-11-09, 14:20

Struthiomimus wrote:
Massimiliano B wrote:Now I try to explain the pronunciation, as far as I understand it:


Wow! Thanks for such a thorough explanation, Massimiliano! :D

Massimiliano B wrote:There are many terrifying words and sentence-words in Montana Salish language.


Massimiliano B wrote:That's why I love this language :) !


So you like to be terrified? :doggy: :mrgreen:


I was terrified, or rather I was shocked, when I had a first look at the language. Then I began to like it, just because of its weirdness :).

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Re: NAILC 2011 Massimiliano Montana Salish-Kalispel

Postby Massimiliano B » 2011-11-10, 23:36

In Montana Salish all nouns include the verb "to be". For example, the meaning of the word citxʷ is not just "house", but "it's a house". Therefore, all words are complete sentences :) .
This is also true when a possessive pronoun is added to a word. In M. Salish there are past, present and future forms of possessives. The following forms are the present ones:

-s added at the end of the word means "his/her/its";

in- going at the beginning of the word means "my";

an- at the beginning of a word means "your".

From citxʷ = it's a house:

citxʷs = it is his/her house.

incitxʷ = it is my house.

ancitxʷ = it is your house.


The future form of the possessive pronouns is formed by using the particle :

qɫ citxʷs = it's going to be her/his house.

iqɫ citxʷ= it's going to be my house.

aqɫ citxʷ = it's going to be your house.


ƛ̓m indicates a past possession:

ƛ̓m citxʷs = it was her/his house.

ƛ̓m incitxʷ = it was my house.

ƛ̓m ancitxʷ = it was your house.



Now I would like to talk about the particle t. I'll try to build some sentences:

sust = literally "he/she drank".

séwɫkʷ = it's water.

The particle t indicates the object or thing receiving the action of a verb in its intransitive form (see Selish Dictionary, page 512):

kʷqs susti t séwɫkʷ = you are going to drink water (kʷqs = you-future;susti = drink; t = object; séwɫkʷ = water). I think that literally this sentence means "you are going to drink what is water".

I'll try to better understand this point tomorrow :)
Last edited by Massimiliano B on 2012-11-08, 23:48, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: NAILC 2011 Massimiliano Montana Salish-Kalispel

Postby Struthiomimus » 2011-11-11, 3:58

Wow! The different temporal forms of the possessive pronouns remind me of Wolof! This is really interesting! And what about the "t" particle? Does it stand alone? Is it suffixed onto the verb? Or attached to the noun?
[flag=]wbp[/flag] [flag=]qu[/flag] [flag=]eo[/flag] [flag=]wo[/flag] [flag=]rom[/flag] [flag=]csb[/flag] [flag=]lkt[/flag]

"Beshav me akana kai le chirikle chi gilaban." kaj, "Beidh ceol, caint agus craic againn."

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Re: NAILC 2011 Massimiliano Montana Salish-Kalispel

Postby Massimiliano B » 2011-11-11, 16:48

Personal pronouns in Montana Salish are really similar to the ones used in the Wolof language :)! In fact, there are present, past and future personal pronouns. I briefly treated this argument in a previous post.

The t particle stands alone before a noun connected with a transitive verb and expresses the agent of the verb (see A Dictionary of the Kalispel or Flat-head Indian Language, "t phonemic session, page 545, t") and Selish Dictionary, page 512:

iɫis ɫu pataq t Stipn = Stephen ate a potato (literally: iɫis = ate-it-he; ɫu pataq = a potato; t Stipn = Stephen-agent).

In this sentence, the verb iɫis is in its transitive form, and its meaning is "he/she/it ate it". If I want to express who or what is doing the action of eating, I have to put a t before the "agent". Here, the agent is Stephen, which in English is the subject of the verb. So, a subject of a Montana Salish transitive verb is preceded by a t. This is what I understood :)
Last edited by Massimiliano B on 2012-11-08, 23:49, edited 9 times in total.

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Re: NAILC 2011 Massimiliano Montana Salish-Kalispel

Postby księżycowy » 2011-11-11, 16:57

Wow! :o

I'm starting to like this language a ton! Might give it a go myself some day. :mrgreen:


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