ᏣᎳᎩ / Cherokee

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Re: Cherokee / ᏗᏜ (didla)

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-06-30, 22:50

Been trying to figure out ᏗᏜ

Have found (online):

===
http://www.cnec-edu.org/wordpress/?p=17573
ᏄᎴ ᏌᎷᏱᏂᎨᏴ ᏗᏜ ᎤᏁᏙᎴ ᎤᏓᎾ
nule saluyinigeyv didla unedole udana
and then they went in the direction of Sallisaw.
They walked around there (Chapter 9.2:14)

Here it appears that didla is used before the verb?

===
http://www.cnec-edu.org/wordpress/?p=13488
ᏗᏜ ᎤᏪᏴ ᎤᏂᎷᏤ
didla uweyv unilutse
when they arrived at the river. (Chapter 9.2:19)

<<towards>> <<river>> <<they arrvied(?)>>

Here didla is used before the object being arrived at.

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Exercise 6.8. Answer the questions after each Cherokee sente

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-07-01, 0:28

[first draft]
[audio needed for Cherokee components]
[edit: 2010-07-01-05-10EDT]

http://www.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f=99&t=30793&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
Last edited by ᏩᏯᏩᏯ on 2010-07-01, 9:32, edited 2 times in total.

Mol_Bolom

Re: Cherokee / ᏗᏜ (didla)

Postby Mol_Bolom » 2010-07-01, 3:19

ᏩᏯᏩᏯ wrote:Been trying to figure out ᏗᏜ

Have found (online):

===
http://www.cnec-edu.org/wordpress/?p=17573
ᏄᎴ ᏌᎷᏱᏂᎨᏴ ᏗᏜ ᎤᏁᏙᎴ ᎤᏓᎾ
nule saluyinigeyv didla unedole udana
and then they went in the direction of Sallisaw.
They walked around there (Chapter 9.2:14)

Here it appears that didla is used before the verb?



http://chr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%8F%B4 ... 4%E1%8F%A9

Has both hawinadidlv, which I've also seen as hawinididlv, and galvladidlv (which is a short form of galvladvdidlv).

Although, I have seen didla used before, it still is rather cumbersome and odd, but eh, I guess I can get over that one, ;).

http://www.cnec-edu.org/wordpress/?p=13488
ᏗᏜ ᎤᏪᏴ ᎤᏂᎷᏤ
didla uweyv unilutse
when they arrived at the river. (Chapter 9.2:19)

<<towards>> <<river>> <<they arrvied(?)>>

Here didla is used before the object being arrived at.

Whoa, that is the strangest usage I have ever seen.

I'll have to check into this cnec site, seems interesting. Though, for the moment I'm getting 404 errors on both of those pages. Not much is working there, I'm guessing they're working on their network. (Too much wording of the word "working", :silly: ).

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Re: Cherokee / ᏗᏜ (didla)

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-07-01, 9:13

Mol_Bolom wrote:
ᏩᏯᏩᏯ wrote:http://www.cnec-edu.org/wordpress/?p=13488
ᏗᏜ ᎤᏪᏴ ᎤᏂᎷᏤ
didla uweyv unilutse
when they arrived at the river. (Chapter 9.2:19)

<<towards>> <<river>> <<they arrvied(?)>>

Here didla is used before the object being arrived at.

Whoa, that is the strangest usage I have ever seen.

I'll have to check into this cnec site, seems interesting. Though, for the moment I'm getting 404 errors on both of those pages. Not much is working there, I'm guessing they're working on their network. (Too much wording of the word "working", :silly: ).


That is the usage form I am trying in the simplified form of "Wolf Wears Shoes"

Wolf Wears Shoes wrote:
5. Jisdu saloli-hno didla ega doya. (Beaver goes towards rabbit and squirrel.)

10. Didla uweyv?i anega jisdu, saloli, ale doya. (Rabbit, squirrel, and beaver go towards the river.)



http://www.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f=99&t=30793&p=616753#p616753
Last edited by ᏩᏯᏩᏯ on 2010-07-01, 9:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cherokee / ᏗᏜ (didla)

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-07-01, 9:26

Mol_Bolom wrote:
ᏩᏯᏩᏯ wrote:Been trying to figure out ᏗᏜ

Whoa, that is the strangest usage I have ever seen.

I'll have to check into this cnec site, seems interesting. Though, for the moment I'm getting 404 errors on both of those pages. Not much is working there, I'm guessing they're working on their network. (Too much wording of the word "working", :silly: ).


You will have to use the search box... seems to work best if you type in syllabary.

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Re: Cherokee / 6.3 ale/-hno

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-07-04, 6:27

More clarification found: Durbin Feeling, page 348, topic "Coordination".

ᏩᏯᏩᏯ wrote:
p343/Durbin Feeling wrote:
ale:
asgaya ale agehya aniwoniha / a man and a woman are speaking.
asgaya gawoniha ale dekanogia / a man is speaking and singing.
achuja gawoniha ale agehya dekanogia / a boy is speaking and a woman is singing

-hno:
asgaya agehyahno aniwoniha / a man and a woman are speaking.
asgaya gawoniha dekanogiahno / a man is speaking and sining. : this one ends in -hno btw. :)
achuja gawoniha agehyahno dekanogia / a boy is speaking and a woman is singing.


Formiko wrote:I would say ageyano kanogisdi for "a woman is singing"


Mol_Bolom wrote:I had been thinking about this constantly, and oddly enough, I don't have a problem with Durbin's example...I wonder why?


I added adjectives to increase sentence complexity in the examples. Going back to the "basics" gives:

Cherokee Lessons wrote:Yonega ale jalagi dejiwoniha. I speak English and Cherokee.
Ogana anigotiha doya awi ale etli. A beaver, a deer, and a mink see a groundhog.
Awi nvya agotiha ale gugu uduliha. A deer sees a rock and also wants a bottle.
Awi nvya agotiha ale doya dili uduliha. A deer sees a rock and a beaver wants a skunk.

Yonega jalagino dejiwoniha. I speak English and Cherokee.
Ogana anigotiha doya awi etlino. A beaver, a deer, and a mink see a groundhog.
Awi nvya agotiha gugu udulihano. A deer sees a rock and also wants a bottle.
Awi nvya agotiha doyano dili uduliha. A deer sees a rock and a beaver wants a skunk.
Awi nvya agotiha dilino uduliha doya. A deer sees a rock and a beaver wants a skunk.


Mol_Bolom wrote:Anyway, I could live with "Igada ogana danigotia doya awi etlino", but "awi nvya agotia igada gugu duduliano", still seems wrong.

Also, by testing some sentences, I've found that I can't use -hno after the second word of a compound word, either.

The only way I can say it as "Awi nvya agotia igadahno gugu dudulia", or "awi nvya agotia duduliahno igada gugu".

These are the sentences I said over and over to test it.

"And he wants some bottles" or "And he only wants some bottles", "And he wants only some bottles".
igada guguhno dudulia
igada gugu duduliahno
igadagwu guguhno dudulia (This one is just bizaar as hell. Listen to the pitch).
igadagwuhno gugu dudulia. (This one seems the best).
igadagwu gugu duduliahno.


I wouldn't consider igaga + gugu a compound word. Only something like pig meat where each is a noun and are used together as a new noun. In English, if we put a hyphen there, "pig-meat", it still makes proper English sense, but "some-bottle" doesn't. (At least to me.)

Durbin Feeling wrote:p318, section II-D

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Re: Cherokee

Postby ILuvEire » 2010-08-29, 20:10

Osiyo :] Just out of curiosity, if I were to learn Cherokee, would it make learning other Iroquoian languages easier? Or would it not effect me really?
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Re: Cherokee

Postby Formiko » 2010-08-30, 4:21

ILuvEire wrote:Osiyo :] Just out of curiosity, if I were to learn Cherokee, would it make learning other Iroquoian languages easier? Or would it not effect me really?


It wouldn't make a difference at all. I speak Mohawk as well, and there are no similarities. I think they were put in the same family because the lexicographer had a deadline ;)
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Re: Cherokee

Postby Zewu » 2010-09-16, 21:02

.
Last edited by Zewu on 2011-11-01, 21:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cherokee

Postby Formiko » 2010-09-16, 21:15

Zewu wrote:
Formiko wrote:
ILuvEire wrote:Osiyo :] Just out of curiosity, if I were to learn Cherokee, would it make learning other Iroquoian languages easier? Or would it not effect me really?


It wouldn't make a difference at all. I speak Mohawk as well, and there are no similarities. I think they were put in the same family because the lexicographer had a deadline ;)

That's interesting. That would make Cherokee an isolate. Could it be related to Yuchi? :P

Well, there ARE lexical similarities, but they are faint. Both French and Persian are Indo-European. They are related, but you have to search to find similarities. That's how close Mohawk and Cherokee are. Or even like Finnish and Hungarian. There in the same Macrofamily, you can see how they are related, but knowing Finnish may or may not help you with Hungarian.
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Re: Cherokee

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-10-06, 0:28

I have started a Cherokee Language oriented website that has 6 chapters of educational material along with matching audio...

http://www.cherokeelessons.com/

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Re: Cherokee

Postby Formiko » 2010-10-06, 0:42



ᎰᏩ, ᎤᏙᎯᏳ ᎣᏍᏓ!
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Re: Cherokee

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-10-06, 2:21

(I have a hard time seeing the unilang cherokee font display, try setting [ size=200 ] or so ...
ᏥᏈᏍᏗ ᏩᏙ.

So... when are you gonna get a headset so that I can add your voice to the MP3s ?


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Re: Cherokee

Postby Formiko » 2010-10-06, 3:17

ᏩᏯᏩᏯ wrote:(I have a hard time seeing the unilang cherokee font display, try setting [ size=200 ] or so ...
ᏥᏈᏍᏗ ᏩᏙ.

So... when are you gonna get a headset so that I can add your voice to the MP3s ?


ᏣᎳᎩ ᎯᏬᏂᎭ ᏥᎦᏘᏯ


I have one! When do you need me?
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ᎤᎵᎮᎵᏍᏗ / ulihelisdi

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-10-06, 3:21


ᎤᎵᎮᎵᏍᏗ / ulihelisdi

I see in the glossary that this is used the same way 'welcome' is used in English,
but the literal meaning is listed as 'he will be thankful'

what is the cultural reference here to be able to use 'he will be thankful' when greeting
someone to indicate that they are 'well come' ?


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Re: Cherokee

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-10-06, 3:41

formiko wrote:
I have one! When do you need me?


As a starting point, what do you think of the idea of reviewing the audio mp3's I have created and posted at http://www.cherokeelessons.com/, and provide recordings for those words or phrases that I have totally screwed up? Unless you think I have spoken correctly enough. After PowWow, I plan on starting backup work on lesson material, either for the book or a recognition game for the website.

FYI, I use the computer to do the repeated phrases, so you don't actually have to record yourself over long periods of time trying to replicate the exercises.

This way we don't raise a new generation of speakers that speak awful. And I can hopefully fix some of mine. :)

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Re: Cherokee

Postby Formiko » 2010-10-06, 3:46

Officially it's ᎬᎵᎡᎵᎦ -- gvli'éliga but I also heard ᎰᏩ howá a lot.

You can always increase the font in your browser. Both Firefox and Chrome do that easily. Which browser are you using?
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Re: Cherokee

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-10-12, 22:41

Formiko wrote:Officially it's ᎬᎵᎡᎵᎦ -- gvli'éliga but I also heard ᎰᏩ howá a lot.

You can always increase the font in your browser. Both Firefox and Chrome do that easily. Which browser are you using?


Chrome mostly.

How does ᎬᎵᎡᎵᎦ compare against ᎤᎵᎮᎵᏍᏗ?


Searchging for ulihelisdi and ᎤᎵᎮᎵᏍᏗ on Google gives lots of results pointing to colloquial use of 'he will be thankful' for the same function as 'welcome' in English when greeting someone.

When searching for gvlieliga I get: "gvlieliga means you are welcome" on a couple of hits,
but just now found:

that ᎤᎵᎮᎵᏍᏗ (he will be happy / thankful) is future form of ᎠᎵᎮᎵᎦ (he is happy / thankful) and that your ᎬᎵᎡᎵᎦ gvlieliga matches pretty close to ᎦᎵᎡᎵᎦ (I am happy / thankful).

This also makes your response understandable if using it as 'you are welcome' and not in the sense of 'welcomed'.

Additionally, it is my understanding that ᎰᏩ (agreement, ok) is the more common response to give after a ᏩᏙ (thanks). But I definitely like the idea of being to use ᎦᎵᎡᎵᎦ as a more expressive response beyond a simple ᎰᏩ.

Thoughts?





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Re: Cherokee

Postby Formiko » 2010-10-13, 0:17

ᏩᏯᏩᏯ wrote:
Thoughts?


I assume ᎬᎵᎡᎵᎦ is probably the more "proper" or textbook form, but ᎰᏩ is used for everything. yes, ok, sure thing, you're welcome, thank you, etc. ᎥᎲ is another one. Don't confuse it with ᎥᎥ however :)
It's been many moons since I've been to Swain county, NC and my grandma died 3 years ago, so I'm not up on the colloquial lingo anymore. :( (I'm not sure if I was EVER up on the lingo :hmm: )
I do know that ᏙᎾᏓᎬᎲ donadágvhv is use for "See ya".
A shop keeper says this when you leave: ósgehesdv gó'iga ᎣᏍᎨᎮᏍᏛ ᎪᎢᎦ
"Have a nice day" spelling is probably wrong.
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Re: Cherokee

Postby ᏩᏯᏩᏯ » 2010-10-13, 2:46

Formiko wrote:A shop keeper says this when you leave: ósgehesdv gó'iga ᎣᏍᎨᎮᏍᏛ ᎪᎢᎦ
"Have a nice day" spelling is probably wrong.


Ꭺ'ᎢᎦ appears in a couple of Google searches as ´today´

I remember a conversation with y'all before about 'today', and re-found, ᎪᎯ ᎢᎦ (kohi iga), for 'this day', which shows up all over the place when googled, including the new testament.

I suspect that ᎪᎢᎦ is a pronunciation variant of ᎪᎯ ᎢᎦ.

Based on it's usage for "this day" and 'today", I suspect it sort of means now started a while ago.

I haven't figured out the literal to osgehesdv yet. I haven't found any viable roots in it that I can locate in my ᎤᏍᏗ ᏗᏕᏠᏆᏍᏙᏗ. :)
I found a sound similar though: ᎣᏍᏓ ᎨᏎᏍᏗ, it will be good

If it is a possibly related sound variant, then it (in a more formal form) might be based on:

"it will be good, this day" ᎣᏍᏓ ᎨᏎᏍᏗ ᎪᎯ ᎢᎦ

Kinda of like an expression of faith that the day will be good, earlier and now and later. :)


FYI:
ᎪᎯ according to the dictionary means "a while ago"
ᎪᎯ ᏴᎢ means "later, after a while"





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