What Native American languages have the fiercest grammar?

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Zewu
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What Native American languages have the fiercest grammar?

Postby Zewu » 2006-09-05, 20:36

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Last edited by Zewu on 2011-11-01, 22:37, edited 1 time in total.

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culúrien
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Postby culúrien » 2006-09-05, 20:51

Cherokee has feirce grammar. I'm studying Lakota, and it's supposedly the "easy" native american language to learn. And it's quite complex. Why do you want to learn the hardest? To give yourself a cookie and a pat on the back? I know that Nero, Pastorant, and I are all part Native American, and I don't think any of our motivations lies with "I want to learn the hardest possible language" (okay maybe pastorant but he's just crazy ;))
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Postby pastorant » 2006-09-05, 20:52

This is my specialty.

I must ask, what is difficult to you? Do you find Spanish difficult? They stay away from Quechua (which is one of the EASIEST native languages in my opinion).
If you think Georgian is easy, then have a go at Tsimshian or Squamish.

You mentioned both Hopi and Hupa. Hupa is Athapaskan (which is what I got my doctorate in) and Hopi is "labeled" as Independant, but I classify as Kiowa-Tanoan or Uto-Aztecan.

What is it you are looking for?

ᎤᏙᏍᏗ ᎪᎱᏍᏗ
utosdi gohusdi
Difficulty is in the eye of the beholder

Cherokee is NOT fierce :)
PastorAnt
ᏱᎦᏊ ᎣᏌᏂᏳ ᎠᏓᏅᏙ ᎠᏓᏙᎵᎩ ᏂᎪᎯᎸᎢ ᎾᏍᏋ ᎤᏠᏯᏍᏗ ᏂᎯ
yigaquu osaniyu adanvto adadoligi nigohilvi nasquv utloyasdi nihi
May God's blessings always be with you.
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culúrien
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Postby culúrien » 2006-09-05, 20:56

pastorant wrote:
Cherokee is NOT fierce :)


Explain why Nero is learning Lakota first over Cherokee then ;)
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Postby pastorant » 2006-09-05, 21:07

I have NO idea.
I've asked him. He said he was able to get a book. :)
It's not that easy comparatively speaking. It's a Siouan language, and has similarities to Algonquian. And Cherokee is Algonquian. At least learn a language that people speak or of your heritage.
Which tribe are you from?
PastorAnt

ᏱᎦᏊ ᎣᏌᏂᏳ ᎠᏓᏅᏙ ᎠᏓᏙᎵᎩ ᏂᎪᎯᎸᎢ ᎾᏍᏋ ᎤᏠᏯᏍᏗ ᏂᎯ

yigaquu osaniyu adanvto adadoligi nigohilvi nasquv utloyasdi nihi

May God's blessings always be with you.

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Nero

Postby Nero » 2006-09-05, 21:21

I have to disagree pastorant. Let me type something from the back of my cherokee book

Head (still in use): asgoli
head (off body): usga

I see myself: gadagotia
I see you: gvgohtia
I see him/her: tsigotia
I see it: tsigotia

I see you two: advgotia
I see you (plural): istvgotia
I see them (live): gatsigotia
I see them (things): detsigotia

You see me: sgigotia
You see yourself: hadagotia
you see him/her: higo(h)tia
you see it: higotia

You see another and me: sginigotia
You see others and me (us): isgigotia
You see them (living): dehigotia
you see them (living): gahigotia
you see them (things): detsigotia

He/she sees me: agigotia
he/she sees you: tsagotia
he/she sees you: atsigotia
he/she sees him/her: agotia
he/she sees himser/fherself: adagotia

He/she sees you+me: ginigotia
He/she sees you two: sdigotia
he/she sees another+me: oginigotia
He she sees us (them+me): otsigotia
he/she sees you (plural): itsigotia
he/she sees them: dagotia

You and I see him/her/it: igigotia
You and I see ourselves: edadotia
you and I see one another: denadagotia or dosdadagotia
You and I see them (living): genigotia
you and I see them (living or not): denigotia

You two see me: sgninigotia
You two see him/her/it: esdigotia
You two see yourselves: sdadagotia
You two see us (another and me): sginigotia
You two see them: desdigotia

Another and I see you: sdvgotia
Another and I see him/her: osdigotia
another and I see it: osdigotia
Another and I see you-two: sdvgotia
Another and I see ourselves: dosdadagotia
Another and I see you (plural): itsvgotia
another and I see them: dosdigotia

You (plural) see me: isgigoti
you (plural) see him/her: etsigoti

They see me: gvgigotia
They see you: getsagotia
They see him/her: anigoti
They see you and me: geginigoti
they see you two: gesdigoti
they see another and me: gegigotia or gogenigoti
they see you (plural): getsigoti
they see them: danagotia
they see themselves/one another: anadagoti


I will see: datsigoi
I saw: agigohvi
he/she will see: dvgohi
he/she saw: ugohvi

Apparently there are 28,000 verb forms. I still can't figure out how the cherokees aren't some super-human group. By their language alone, it's very intense. And Alcadras says lakota conjugations are hard... :twisted:

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Postby Zewu » 2006-09-05, 21:25

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Postby culúrien » 2006-09-05, 21:26

Hehe...everytime I complain about Lakota Nero just compare it to Cherokee :D
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Postby pastorant » 2006-09-05, 21:33

That book is Stupid, Nero. Did you know the verb forms of Klingon come from Cherokee?
Cherokee uses prefixes for verbs. And it includes the direct object for transitive verbs.

Plus, to see is an irregulat verb! -ago is the verb to see.

Cherokee only has 3 irregular verbs. It has 93% grammatical similarity with Siouan languages. You obviously haven't read far in your Lakota book.
PastorAnt

ᏱᎦᏊ ᎣᏌᏂᏳ ᎠᏓᏅᏙ ᎠᏓᏙᎵᎩ ᏂᎪᎯᎸᎢ ᎾᏍᏋ ᎤᏠᏯᏍᏗ ᏂᎯ

yigaquu osaniyu adanvto adadoligi nigohilvi nasquv utloyasdi nihi

May God's blessings always be with you.

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Postby Zewu » 2006-09-05, 21:41

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Last edited by Zewu on 2011-11-01, 22:37, edited 1 time in total.

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pastorant
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Postby pastorant » 2006-09-05, 21:45

In my opinion, any of the languages on the Pacific Northweat, like Tlingit or Squamish.
Good luck if you can find the speakers. :)
PastorAnt

ᏱᎦᏊ ᎣᏌᏂᏳ ᎠᏓᏅᏙ ᎠᏓᏙᎵᎩ ᏂᎪᎯᎸᎢ ᎾᏍᏋ ᎤᏠᏯᏍᏗ ᏂᎯ

yigaquu osaniyu adanvto adadoligi nigohilvi nasquv utloyasdi nihi

May God's blessings always be with you.

(Use Code2000 font to see)

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Nero

Postby Nero » 2006-09-05, 21:53

pastorant wrote:That book is Stupid, Nero. Did you know the verb forms of Klingon come from Cherokee?
Cherokee uses prefixes for verbs. And it includes the direct object for transitive verbs.




Yes but at least the Klingon chart is much simpler:

Even saying something like "I go" in cherokee can be broken down, I'm sure you've seen this example already pastor, but for the others:

Verb form ke:ka = I go

k- PRONOMINAL PREFIX
e: VERB ROOT "to go"
-k ASPECT SUFFIX
-a MODAL SUFFIX


Image

and particles are just stuck on the front rather than inside or elsewhere


Plus, to see is an irregulat verb! -ago is the verb to see.

Cherokee only has 3 irregular verbs.


According to Wikipedia cherokee article, regular verbs aren't much different when the number of forms is concerned:

"Verbs can also have prepronominal prefixes, reflexive prefixes, and derivative suffixes. Given all possible combinations of affixes, each regular verb can have 21,262 inflected forms."

It has 93% grammatical similarity with Siouan languages. You obviously haven't read far in your Lakota book


True enough. Some of the things which need to be memorized though (the difference between verb forms if the object is solid/living/indefinite shape/flexible) which are more combersome don't exist in Lakota.

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Postby pastorant » 2006-09-05, 22:02

You looking at it mathematically.
The reflexive part is just -he- added after the first prefix.
The charts in your Klingon book look nicer. Which Cherokee book do you have? The only Cherokee book worth its salt is the one by Ruth Holmes. I've seen grammar charts on spanish that would make me cringe. I've actually been thinking of writing a new book about the Cherokee language.

Honestly, most of the verb forms are not used it everyday speech. To say
I hit you is technically
gvgvniha, but everyone just says jigvniha nihi (I hit-you)
PastorAnt

ᏱᎦᏊ ᎣᏌᏂᏳ ᎠᏓᏅᏙ ᎠᏓᏙᎵᎩ ᏂᎪᎯᎸᎢ ᎾᏍᏋ ᎤᏠᏯᏍᏗ ᏂᎯ

yigaquu osaniyu adanvto adadoligi nigohilvi nasquv utloyasdi nihi

May God's blessings always be with you.

(Use Code2000 font to see)

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Nero

Postby Nero » 2006-09-05, 23:43

pastorant wrote:You looking at it mathematically.
The reflexive part is just -he- added after the first prefix.
The charts in your Klingon book look nicer. Which Cherokee book do you have? The only Cherokee book worth its salt is the one by Ruth Holmes. I've seen grammar charts on spanish that would make me cringe. I've actually been thinking of writing a new book about the Cherokee language.


I hate to tell you mate, but that's the one I own. The big orange one with "Beginning Cherokee", second edition, the picture of Sequoyah and Ayoka underneath, by Ruth Bradley Holmes?

Image

Unfortunatley, I dont have the time to learn the language. Just to gripe about it on the forums, is all. :lol:

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Postby pastorant » 2006-09-06, 0:23

I've done research on Siouan languages. They are just as difficult. You might have an excellent book that doesn't show you all the nitty gritty up front ;)

If I write a new Cheroke book, would you buy it?
PastorAnt

ᏱᎦᏊ ᎣᏌᏂᏳ ᎠᏓᏅᏙ ᎠᏓᏙᎵᎩ ᏂᎪᎯᎸᎢ ᎾᏍᏋ ᎤᏠᏯᏍᏗ ᏂᎯ

yigaquu osaniyu adanvto adadoligi nigohilvi nasquv utloyasdi nihi

May God's blessings always be with you.

(Use Code2000 font to see)

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Postby Alcadras » 2006-09-06, 7:03

Quichua is the easiest imho.
I studied Nahuatl and Lakota and i'd say that Lakota is the most different one.


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