księżyc - Onöndowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca language)

Moderator: księżycowy

User avatar
księżycowy
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9433
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Onödowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca)

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-14, 13:43

I've been sitting on the idea of taking the Community Classes on the website through Video conferencing. I finally decided, what the hell, why not? I sent an email, and we'll see if I can still join in.

I don't expect you to do this dEhiN, if you want to still continue with Seneca, but I'm going to take advantage of this (if they let me)!

In other news, my order of the Seneca Grammar finally shipped! Hope to get it in a week or two!
Biblical Hebrew (he) Japanese (ja) | Munster Irish (ga) Seneca (see)

User avatar
księżycowy
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9433
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Onödowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca)

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-15, 17:04

The teacher of the course just got back to me and said that while the classes are catered to Seneca people, they are open to the public. Woohoo!

I'm taking a Seneca course! For free! :D
Biblical Hebrew (he) Japanese (ja) | Munster Irish (ga) Seneca (see)

User avatar
księżycowy
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9433
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Onödowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca)

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-17, 1:29

So that first lesson was pretty cool. It was over pretty quick. Too quick in fact!

And I stumbled through my words quite a bit, but it was fun as shit. :lol:

We basically went through the Ganö:nyök (Thanksgiving speech), giving the basic pattern of how to thank various things.
Sga:d hëdwa:yë:’ ögwa’nigöë’ [form of dëdwanö:nyö’] [thing we’re thanking]
one we-will-have our-mind [form of we-give-thanks-to-it] [thing we’re thanking]

Then we learned and role-played the various forms of gya:söh "I am called."

Then we learned the basic numbers 1-20 and how to tell and ask about the time:
Do: niyoisda:’e:h? What time is it?
[number] niyoisda:’e:h. It is [number] o’clock.

It was a lot of fun, and the instructor and her assistant were really cool. I am definitely doing it again!
Biblical Hebrew (he) Japanese (ja) | Munster Irish (ga) Seneca (see)

User avatar
dEhiN
Posts: 4728
Joined: 2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name: David
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Onödowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca)

Postby dEhiN » 2017-11-17, 3:17

It's for free?! Do they work with complete newbs?
My TAC for 2017.

(en-CA) (fr) (es) (pt-BR) (ko) (sv) (sq) (ga)

User avatar
księżycowy
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9433
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Onödowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca)

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-17, 7:59

Yes to both.

They were really cool and they helped me out. They walked me through a few parts, especially the Ganö:nyök. Personally, if I were you and I was interested, I'd just shoot the teacher an email and what not.

Being a fellow Unilanger, I feel the necessity in saying: We didn't really get into much grammar (certainly not explicitly), but I get the feeling that one could ask them questions.

This class I was more worried about getting the swing of things, and not making a complete ass of myself. :silly:

EDIT: I just reread this post. I guess I shouldn't have typed so fast. :P
Last edited by księżycowy on 2017-11-18, 0:11, edited 3 times in total.
Biblical Hebrew (he) Japanese (ja) | Munster Irish (ga) Seneca (see)

User avatar
księżycowy
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9433
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Onödowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca)

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-17, 14:24

My guess as to why it is free is because, I mean, who would take a Seneca language course? Mostly Seneca people, and I think they shouldn't have to pay for their own language, right?

It's actually a very awesome thing that they allow the public to attend as well. And also for free!

It's not like it's French, or Chinese or something. They are trying to keep as much of their culture alive as possible.
Biblical Hebrew (he) Japanese (ja) | Munster Irish (ga) Seneca (see)

User avatar
dEhiN
Posts: 4728
Joined: 2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name: David
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Onödowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca)

Postby dEhiN » 2017-11-18, 2:42

Thanks! I still haven't gotten around to learning the phonology/orthography, but once I do, I might shoot them an email. Or I might go through a few more lessons, and then do so. Are they class-based or one-on-one?
My TAC for 2017.

(en-CA) (fr) (es) (pt-BR) (ko) (sv) (sq) (ga)

User avatar
księżycowy
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9433
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Onödowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca)

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-18, 10:01

Class based. Which can make it entertaining, for various reasons. :lol:


Also, where as I get your want to know the orthographic and phonetic details of Seneca, it's pretty simple. Biggest things for newbies to watch out for are the use of are <'> (glottal stop), <:> (long vowel indicator), and <sh> (/sh/ not /ʃ/, /ʃ/ is <š>). Nasal vowels are <ë> and <ö>, <ä> is /æ/.
Biblical Hebrew (he) Japanese (ja) | Munster Irish (ga) Seneca (see)

User avatar
księżycowy
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9433
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Onödowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca)

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-18, 18:49

księżycowy wrote:EDIT: Eh, I jumped the gun the other way, and bought the grammar. I had some points to use up at Amazon anyway. :P
I'll be pissed if page 31 is still missing though!

I just received my copy of the grammar, and finally have an answer! the page is missing! (thank God it's not missing from the paperback edition though!)

https://photos.app.goo.gl/BGxcN9h1venOzLxy1

https://photos.app.goo.gl/pSQIELhl7y8i2qkI2
Biblical Hebrew (he) Japanese (ja) | Munster Irish (ga) Seneca (see)

User avatar
księżycowy
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9433
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Onödowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca language)

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-21, 16:19

I just got an email back from James (the gentleman who maintains the Seneca Nation language site), and he will be added the Fundamentals of Seneca booklet to the website shortly.

He also said that he would try to have a series of book(let's?) on Seneca verbs uploaded at some point in the future! (I didn't realize that there was more than one book called "Seneca Verbs")

More goodies! :partyhat:
Biblical Hebrew (he) Japanese (ja) | Munster Irish (ga) Seneca (see)

User avatar
księżycowy
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9433
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Onödowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca)

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-23, 16:57

Ok, I wanted to post the full set of pronomial prefixes for the "A" class stems, and also clarify a few points:
-adö́gweta’ - to be well, healthy, good

gadö́gweta’ - I am well
agadö́gweta’ - we (d.e.) are well (full prefix is yag-)
agwadö́gweta’ - we (e.) are well (full prefix is yagw-)
jadö́gweta’ (džadö́gweta’) - we (d.i.) are well
dwadö́gweta’ - we (i.) are well

sadö́gweta’ - you (s.) are well
snyadö́gweta’ - you (d.) are well
swadö́gweta’ - you (p.) are well

hadö́gweta’ - he is well
hyadö’gweta’ - they (m.d.) are well
hënödö́gweta’ - they (m.) are well

yödö́gweta’ - she is well
gyadö́gweta’ - they (f.d.) are well
wënödö́gweta’ - they (f.) are well

yadö́gweta’ - it is well

(Some of these may be hypothetical forms)
Abbreviations:
d. - dual
e. - exclusive
i. - inclusive
s. - singular (I only marked it where the English doesn't make it clear)
p. - plural (I only marked it where the English doesn't make it clear)
f. - female agents
m. - masculine agents

I'm curious what would be used if there was a mixed group (3rd person). My intuition says the masculine plural.

yödö́gweta’ (- she, which "swallows" the <a> of the root)

It seems the reason this happens is because the underlying sequence is <ye-> + <-a> (of the root), which yields <yö->
hadö́gweta’ (ha- he, which also "swallows" the <a> of the root)

The grammar, interestingly enough, describes this prefix simply as <h->.
Biblical Hebrew (he) Japanese (ja) | Munster Irish (ga) Seneca (see)

User avatar
księżycowy
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9433
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Onödowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca language)

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-23, 23:43

Seems like we're not having class this week. :doggy:
I waited 10 minutes, typical college rules!

Well, I guess I'll work on the first two lessons of the Language Supplement and maybe try to figure out the pronominal prefixes for -ya:söh (to be called).
Biblical Hebrew (he) Japanese (ja) | Munster Irish (ga) Seneca (see)

User avatar
księżycowy
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9433
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Onödowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca language)

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-01, 17:09

Well, due to having g a cold that lives primarily in my throat and nose this week, I ended up not being able to participate in this week's class yesterday. :cry:

I have some ground to make up. So I'll post a bit here about the pronominal prefixes for -ya:söh (to be called) I'd also like to see if I can learn how to tell the time with the minutes as well as hour. Last time we did that in class it was all with the hour, and not any minutes (so, 9:00, or 1:00, etc.)

I'll try to post something later today.
Biblical Hebrew (he) Japanese (ja) | Munster Irish (ga) Seneca (see)

User avatar
księżycowy
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9433
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Onödowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca)

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-02, 0:08

Here are the pronominal prefixes for consonant stems:
-ya:söh (to be called)

gya:söh
akniya:söh
agwaya:söh
hniya:söh
dwaya:söh

šya:söh
sniya:söh
swaya:söh

hay:söh
hniya:söh
hadiya:söh

yeya:söh
kniya:söh
wadiya:söh

gaya:söh

[Different than vowel stem prefixes]
Biblical Hebrew (he) Japanese (ja) | Munster Irish (ga) Seneca (see)

User avatar
księżycowy
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9433
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Onöndowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca language)

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-02, 16:47

Time to learn how to count in Seneca (using this page on counting in Cayuga as reference.)

So, for example 4:00 would be:
Ge:ih niyoisda:’e:h.

4:15
Wis sgae’ heyoähdöh ge:ih niyoisda:’e:h. (literally: 15 after 4 o’clock)

4:45
Wis sgae’ nejono:ö’ wis. (literally: 15 before 5)

4:30
Ha’dewahsënöh ge:ih. (literally: half-past four)

That wraps up telling time, pretty much. My only questions at the moment are whether the last two need niyoisda:’e:h (o'clock) or not in Seneca. It seems the equivalent is not needed in Cayuga. For that matter, I'm not sure if example two needs it either.

All of this, of course, is assuming that both languages tell time in the same way. I know that within the Northern Iroquoian languages both Cayuga and Seneca are very closely related, but that doesn't mean that this is how Seneca operates. Stay tuned for either confirmation or revision.
Biblical Hebrew (he) Japanese (ja) | Munster Irish (ga) Seneca (see)

User avatar
księżycowy
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9433
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Onöndowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca language)

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-03, 1:27

Let's do something easier this time and mess around with nouns. :P

Here is an example from the Language Supplement (Lesson 2):
adekwá:hgwa’ - table
adekwá:hgwa’geh - on the table

So This -geh is called the external locative suffix (Grammar pgs 86-87). That's a fancy way of saying it translates to "at", "on", or sometimes "in".

The usual form is -geh, but the form -neh is found with nouns that end in <h>.

Noun usually end in <a/ö> and either a glottal stop <’> (which is most common) or <h>.
Some examples:
ga:öwö’ - boat
osga:wa’ - bushes, brush

gëdzöh - fish
no’yëh - mother

So let’s see how these combine:
ga:öwö’geh
osga:wa’geh

gëdzö:neh
no’yë:neh
(Note the lengthening of the final vowel due to the loss of <h> in the last two examples.)

-neh is also used with some of the seasons and "months":
goshé:neh - in winter
Nisgówakneh - in January
Biblical Hebrew (he) Japanese (ja) | Munster Irish (ga) Seneca (see)

User avatar
dEhiN
Posts: 4728
Joined: 2013-08-18, 2:51
Real Name: David
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Onöndowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca language)

Postby dEhiN » 2017-12-03, 9:22

księżycowy wrote:So This -geh is called the external locative suffix (Grammar pgs 86-87). That's a fancy way of saying it translates to "at", "on", or sometimes "in".

So does this mean there's an internal locative suffix? If so, what's the distinction between external and internal, as far as Seneca is concerned? Offhand, I would think that a location-based concept like "in" would be internal while "at" and "on" would be external. But perhaps the external refers to something else?
My TAC for 2017.

(en-CA) (fr) (es) (pt-BR) (ko) (sv) (sq) (ga)

User avatar
księżycowy
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9433
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Onöndowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca language)

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-03, 12:28

I was going to go there next anyway, so thank you for the questions, dEhiN! :)

To clarify, the meaning "in" for the external locative suffix is mostly limited to our last two examples from my previous post:
goshé:neh - in winter
Nisgówakneh - in January

So, for example, ga:öwö’geh would not produce the meaning "in the boat", it could only mean "at the boat" or "on the boat".

Before shifting gears, I forgot the mention something else about the form -neh.
It seems this form is used with English loan words, so:
store-neh (at the store)

There is indeed an internal locative suffix in Seneca. (Grammar pg 87)
For this suffix, there is only one form: -gö:h
It typically means "in," but sometimes can also mean "under"
Some examples:
ga:öwögö:h (from ga:öwö’) - in the boat
osga:wagö:h (from osga:wa’) - in the bushes

gayó:wagö:h (from gayó:öh) - in the moccasin
gëdzögö:h (from gëdzöh) - in the fish
[These two are my best guesses, as all the examples from this section on pg 87 seem to be glottal stop final nouns]

owisägö:h (from owi:sä’) - under the ice
Biblical Hebrew (he) Japanese (ja) | Munster Irish (ga) Seneca (see)

User avatar
księżycowy
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9433
Joined: 2006-09-13, 23:51
Real Name: Paweł
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Re: księżyc - Onöndowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca language)

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-07, 14:28

I was starting to get nervous that the worksheet for class wasn't posted on the site yet today. Then I noticed that classes have been changed to Monday nights. :shock:

At least it seems that I didn't miss class this week. :para:
Biblical Hebrew (he) Japanese (ja) | Munster Irish (ga) Seneca (see)

User avatar
Massimiliano B
Posts: 1643
Joined: 2009-03-31, 10:01
Real Name: Massimiliano Bavieri
Gender: male
Location: Lucca
Country: IT Italy (Italia)

Re: księżyc - Onöndowá’ga:’ gawë:nö’ (Seneca language)

Postby Massimiliano B » 2017-12-07, 16:39

It would be like a dream if there were NAILs courses available here in Italy!!


Return to “North American Indigenous Languages”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests