dEhiN's Language Log

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby Linguaphile » 2021-01-05, 19:20

dEhiN wrote:Huh, interesting! Thanks for the examples? In practice, you know how pronounced the distinctions are? I imagine dialectal variation would play a factor here, but do other mechanisms end up being substituted to differentiate, or do Estonians in general actually hold the long vowels for longer than the regular ones and the overlong, longer still?

I edited my post while you were posting, and my edit was the addition of link where you can hear the differences. It will probably answer your question. Yes, they really are pronounced longer, and for overlong also with a slight difference in intonation (sometimes described as a slight pause, or delayed stress - it's difficult to describe.)


Linguaphile wrote:And if you want to hear the difference between short, long and overlong, under Sõnavormid (near the top right) click on the audio symbol next to each of the two different forms of linna at this link and compare them with lina here. (Note that all three links for the audio of "lina" are the same, as the nominative, genitive and partitive forms of that word are all pronounced identically. For "linna", on the other hand, the nominative is "linn" and the genitive and partitive forms that are written "linna" have different pronunciations.)
Last edited by Linguaphile on 2021-01-05, 19:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-01-05, 19:25

I just found some Romanian folk songs I grew up on.

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby dEhiN » 2021-01-05, 23:49

Linguaphile wrote:I edited my post while you were posting, and my edit was the addition of link where you can hear the differences. It will probably answer your question. Yes, they really are pronounced longer, and for overlong also with a slight difference in intonation (sometimes described as a slight pause, or delayed stress - it's difficult to describe.)

Thanks for the links! I'll check them out when I can.

vijayjohn wrote:I just found some Romanian folk songs I grew up on.

Really? Could you post links?
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby księżycowy » 2021-01-06, 0:33

vijayjohn wrote:I just found some Romanian folk songs I grew up on.

Wait, I thought you were Indian, not European. :hmm:

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-01-06, 1:56

księżycowy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:I just found some Romanian folk songs I grew up on.

Wait, I thought you were Indian, not European. :hmm:

"I've been studying Japanese since childhood."
"Wait, I thought you were white, not East Asian." :roll:
dEhiN wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:I just found some Romanian folk songs I grew up on.

Really? Could you post links?

Sure! I think they were part of some album from the 70s. In the order they were presented in on the CD I remember hearing them on (and copying them onto an audiocassette from at the time :P):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp8cGrw203A
No luck finding the lyrics to this one yet, all (I think) I've managed to make out so far from the beginning is:

Foaie verde-o viorea, măi! (O green sweet violet leaf! :?:)
Toată lumea zice așa (Everyone says)
Că nu-i bună dragostea (That love isn't good).
Cred ce eu că ??? (They think I who ??? :?:)
Cã dragostea nu e bună (That love isn't good).

This one by the same singer I actually posted years ago (lyrics in the video description):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TzOkAinTYA
The title of this one means 'daddy, buy me some slippers':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcQnkeHXCzU
Lyrics: https://www.versuri.ro/versuri/angela-m ... kvi7.html#

And the title of this one means 'I go outside the courtyard':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTvfLMRlj4M
No clue regarding the lyrics for this one

Most of the songs on the album are instrumental ones, such as these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl8QlnygoQI
This apparently is where Goicea is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Waf2fyPhg0U
(This album is not exactly the same, but it's awfully close (this is the link to the first song I remember hearing in the sequence): https://archive.org/details/lp_the-roma ... m+Mehadica).mp3. This is apparently where Mehadica is).

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Re: Half-year TAC 2020 - dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2021-01-06, 4:47

Duo update time! This indicates an increase in a skill level or language stat.

French (fr) French
Section 1:
Level 3/5 - Basics 1, Greetings, Basics 2, People, Travel, Family, Activities, People 2, Family 2, Restaurant
Level 2/2 - Present Tense
Level 1/1 - Flirting, Christmas, Idioms
Section 2:
Level 3/5 - City, Travel 2, At Home, At Work, Food, Habits, Shopping
Level 2/2 - Agreement
Level 1/5 - People 3
Level 0/5 - City 2 (2/5 lessons complete toward Level 1)
Language Summary:
Level 12, 4020 XP, 74 crowns

Brazilian Portuguese (pt-br) Portuguese
Section 1:
Level 4/5 - Basics 1
Level 3/5 - Basics 2, Phrases, Phrases 2, Food 1, Animals, Plurals, Tu/Você, "A gente", Adjectives 1, Possession, Prepositions 1, Contractions, Clothing, Food 2
Level 1/1 - Christmas, Flirting, Idioms
Section 2:
Level 2/5 - Questions, Colors
Level 1//5 - Numbers (2/4 lessons complete toward Level 2)
Level 0/5 - Present 1 (3/9 lessons complete toward Level 1)
Language Summary:
Level 10, 2451 XP, 54 crowns

Swedish (sv) Swedish
Section 1:
Level 3/5 - Basics, Basics 2, Phrases, Food, Animals, Definites, Plurals, Possessives, Pronouns Objective
Section 2:
Level 3/5 - Clothing
Language Summary:
Level 9, 1771 XP, 30 crowns

Romanian (ro) Romanian
Section 1:
Level 3/5 - Basics 1
Level 0/5 - Basics 2 (5/6 lessons complete toward Level 1)
Language Summary:
Level 5, 325 XP, 3 crowns
Last edited by dEhiN on 2021-01-06, 5:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby dEhiN » 2021-01-06, 5:08

Some notes on the update:

As you can see, in the essentially 2 days since my last update, I did a fair amount of Portuguese, Swedish and Romanian. I'm happy that I got to Level 3 on Clothing for Swedish. It was quite tough though, and I did some practice sessions afterward. I'm probably going to do a few more practice sessions before I move on. The next two skills are Verbs 1 and Colors, and to be honest, I'm finding the Swedish clothing vocabulary hard to remember. I figured out that each lesson is about 15 questions and there's 3 lessons per level for Clothing, so that equates to 135 questions on Swedish clothing. Even after all that, I still don't remember all the vocab. Although, I did start to remember some off by heart once I was on Level 1 working toward Level 2. I think part of the difficulty is that Duo will now mix declined forms of new vocabulary, so I felt like for some items of clothing, I only ever saw the plural indefinite and/or definite forms. And I'm not yet able to draw from the plural indefinite form the possible singular indefinite form. Perhaps tomorrow or the next day I'll look up the terms on my own using Wiktionary and write out all the forms here.

The pronunciation was also a little more difficult than any of the previous vocabulary. There were words like skjorta and kjolorna, which use the two difficult Swedish fricatives. The first time I saw the word skjorta, I had to spend some time on the Wikipedia page for that fricative alone!

I also found Romanian a little slow going. I did manage to do a few more lessons toward getting Level 1 for the Basics 2 skill. However, I didn't have it in me to do that one last lesson. Instead, I supplemented with some practice sessions, which I found helpful.

It's funny - I think with Romanian and Swedish, I'm finding my head having to wrap around declension a lot more than I felt like I ever had to with French, Portuguese or even Spanish. Offhand, I can't compare now to recall if F/P/S do actually have a fair amount of nominal declension. I guess apart from article and adjectival gender agreement (which maybe doesn't even count as declension?), there isn't much change to nouns. Plurals are formed fairly regularly for most words, and so overall I don't remember having much difficulty getting used to F/P/S. Of course, that's what I remember - I'm sure there were some big challenges that I'm forgetting now.

But with Romanian and Swedish, it feels like learning a completely new "word" for each form of a lexical* word. Both languages have a separate indefinite article, but an affixed definite article. Both languages have a different lexeme* for the indefinite plural and again, the definite plural. And that's just taking into account the nominative case! Fortunately, Swedish really only has nominative and genitive (which is simple, you just add an s to nouns - excepting of course, the pronominal system). I do know that Swedish has a fairly regular pattern to its declension system, which I'm starting to grasp. Given the indefinite singular form of a word (that follows one of the regular declensions), I could get the definite singular and guess the indefinite and definite plurals with a good chance of success. But, I have no clue about any "patterns" in Romanian. To be fair, though, I've only done 1 skill and 5/6 of a second skill in Romanian, while I've done several in Swedish.

Overall, I'm happy though to have progressed a whole level for each of Portuguese, Swedish and Romanian.

*Vijay (or anyone else who knows more than me linguistically), could you tell me if I used the wrong word? I believe lexical/lexeme is what I was going for instead of morphological/morpheme, but if not, please correct me.
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby księżycowy » 2021-01-06, 9:05

vijayjohn wrote:"I've been studying Japanese since childhood."
"Wait, I thought you were white, not East Asian." :roll:

Sure, studying. But I didn't "grow up" in Japanese. :wink: (On Japanese?)

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-01-06, 18:01

księżycowy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:"I've been studying Japanese since childhood."
"Wait, I thought you were white, not East Asian." :roll:

Sure, studying. But I didn't "grow up" in Japanese. :wink: (On Japanese?)

On Japanese

I just meant I listened to them when I was growing up (and also recorded them onto an audiocassette from a CD. I think I was 11 years old).

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby księżycowy » 2021-01-06, 18:10

Nah, you're European. The cat's out of the bag.

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby Dormouse559 » 2021-01-06, 23:46

dEhiN wrote:It's funny - I think with Romanian and Swedish, I'm finding my head having to wrap around declension a lot more than I felt like I ever had to with French, Portuguese or even Spanish. Offhand, I can't compare now to recall if F/P/S do actually have a fair amount of nominal declension. I guess apart from article and adjectival gender agreement (which maybe doesn't even count as declension?), there isn't much change to nouns. Plurals are formed fairly regularly for most words, and so overall I don't remember having much difficulty getting used to F/P/S. Of course, that's what I remember - I'm sure there were some big challenges that I'm forgetting now.

No, you're right. French, Portuguese and Spanish have less noun/adjective declension than Romanian, at least; I don't know much about Swedish, though. F/P/S have number and gender marking. (At the risk of splitting hairs, article/adjective gender agreement is declension, while gender variations in nouns are typically grouped into derivation). In addition to those, Romanian has case marking and a third gender.
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby dEhiN » 2021-01-07, 2:37

Dormouse559 wrote:No, you're right. French, Portuguese and Spanish have less noun/adjective declension than Romanian, at least; I don't know much about Swedish, though. F/P/S have number and gender marking. (At the risk of splitting hairs, article/adjective gender agreement is declension, while gender variations in nouns are typically grouped into derivation). In addition to those, Romanian has case marking and a third gender.

Hey, I'm glad you're still active on here! I haven't come across Romanian's third gender yet on Duolingo, though perhaps they're saving it for a future lesson. One thing I find confusing about Romanian feminine though is that the indefinite article is o while the masculine is un. I've gotten a little more used to it now, but at first it confused me because I kept thinking of the Portuguese masculine definite article.

In fact, I'm curious why the feminine indefinite articles in F/P/S are une/uma/una, respectively, and Romanian is so different! Not only was the initial /u/ dropped, but so was the nasal, and the final vowel was raised and sent to the back of the mouth. That also makes me wonder how Romanian definite forms became declined while F/P/S (and Italian afaik) all use a separate article to show definiteness. Though, perhaps it's more the other way - Romanian kept definite declension from Latin, while F/P/S somehow all developed a separate article?

As for Swedish, there are only two genders - common and neuter, but gender, definiteness and number are all declined. Similar to French though, Swedish uses only one (declined) form for plural, so really, you have at most about 5-6 declined forms for a given adjective: common indefinite singular, common definite singular, neuter indefinite singular, neuter definite singular, indefinite plural and definite plural.

What's curious is that some sentences almost have a triple definite agreement. I was doing a Duo lesson and came across the sentence de rosa byxorna är hennes to translate to English. It means "the pink pants are hers". Breaking it down, though, you get:

de - definite plural determiner
rosa - definite plural form of "pink"
byxorna - definite plural form of "pants"
är - present form of "to be"
hennes - plural form of feminine 3rd singular object pronoun

The first word, de, usually is the 3rd plural subject pronoun meaning "they", but in this case functions as a determiner. The same need for a determiner that declines in agreement holds for singular nouns as well:

den rosa bilen = the pink car
det rosa huset = the pink house

In this case, car is common gender and house is neuter gender. Also, den and det usually function as Swedish's versions of "it". When "it" refers back to a specific noun, den is used if the noun is common gender, while det is used for neuter gender. When "it" is the empty pronoun, det is used by default.
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-01-07, 2:40

dEhiN wrote:*Vijay (or anyone else who knows more than me linguistically), could you tell me if I used the wrong word? I believe lexical/lexeme is what I was going for instead of morphological/morpheme, but if not, please correct me.

I think you meant morpheme rather than lexeme because a lexeme is just a word whereas a morpheme can be (and typically is) part of a word.

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby dEhiN » 2021-01-07, 2:56

vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:*Vijay (or anyone else who knows more than me linguistically), could you tell me if I used the wrong word? I believe lexical/lexeme is what I was going for instead of morphological/morpheme, but if not, please correct me.

I think you meant morpheme rather than lexeme because a lexeme is just a word whereas a morpheme can be (and typically is) part of a word.

Ok, thanks!
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby Dormouse559 » 2021-01-07, 3:58

dEhiN wrote:Hey, I'm glad you're still active on here! I haven't come across Romanian's third gender yet on Duolingo, though perhaps they're saving it for a future lesson.
Haha, yeah, I don't post a ton, but I log in and read new posts pretty much daily. So I'm always watching :P The Romanian neuter resembles the masculine singular in the singular and the feminine singular in the plural. It's more complicated than that, as I understand it, but that's the general pattern.

dEhiN wrote:In fact, I'm curious why the feminine indefinite articles in F/P/S are une/uma/una, respectively, and Romanian is so different!

Hmm, I don't know. But certainly a word as common an article can get worn down easily.

dEhiN wrote:That also makes me wonder how Romanian definite forms became declined while F/P/S (and Italian afaik) all use a separate article to show definiteness. Though, perhaps it's more the other way - Romanian kept definite declension from Latin, while F/P/S somehow all developed a separate article?

It's not so complicated as that. The forms of Vulgar Latin that resulted in most Romance languages put the Latin demonstrative ille before the noun, while the form that resulted in Romanian put the same demonstrative after the noun. In both cases, it glommed onto other words to some degree, but most Romance treated it as clitic, while in Romanian it is closer to a suffix.
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby dEhiN » 2021-01-07, 4:44

Dormouse559 wrote:Haha, yeah, I don't post a ton, but I log in and read new posts pretty much daily. So I'm always watching :P
...
It's not so complicated as that. The forms of Vulgar Latin that resulted in most Romance languages put the Latin demonstrative ille before the noun, while the form that resulted in Romanian put the same demonstrative after the noun. In both cases, it glommed onto other words to some degree, but most Romance treated it as clitic, while in Romanian it is closer to a suffix.

Ça a du sens. Peut-être je peux essayer d'écrire mes mises à jour en français à cause de toi et Vijay afin que je puisse améliorer mon français. Selon un examen de niveau sur Dialang (un site web par Lancaster University), mes niveaux d'écriture et de lire sont B1.
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby Dormouse559 » 2021-01-08, 0:53

dEhiN wrote:Ça a du sens. Peut-être que je peux essayer d'écrire mes mises à jour en français à cause de toi et Vijay afin que je puisse améliorer mon français (ou afin d'améliorer mon français). Selon un examen de niveau sur Dialang (un site web par de Lancaster University), j'ai un niveau B1 en écriture et en lecture.

Vas-y ! Je t'aiderai volontiers :)
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby dEhiN » 2021-01-08, 23:50

Dormouse559 wrote:
dEhiN wrote:Ça a du sens. Peut-être que je peux essayer d'écrire mes mises à jour en français à cause de toi et Vijay afin que je puisse améliorer mon français (ou afin d'améliorer mon français). Selon un examen de niveau sur Dialang (un site web par de Lancaster University), j'ai un niveau B1 en écriture et en lecture.

Vas-y ! Je t'aiderai volontiers :)

Merci beaucoup et merci pour les corrections! Pourquoi « un site web par » ne travaille pas? Je suppose qu'en anglais, c'est plus commun de dire « a website from », mais au même temps c'est possible aussi à dire « a website by ».
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby Dormouse559 » 2021-01-09, 0:57

dEhiN wrote:Merci beaucoup et merci pour les corrections! Pourquoi est-ce que « un site web par » ne travaille marche pas? Je suppose qu'en anglais, c'est plus commun de dire « a website from », mais au en même temps c'est possible aussi à de dire « a website by ».

De rien ! Faut pas trop penser à l'anglais. En français, pour attribuer une œuvre à son auteur, on utilise « de ». Alors, par exemple, on peut dire « une pièce de Molière » ou « un film de Dreamworks ».
Last edited by Dormouse559 on 2021-01-09, 1:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby Osias » 2021-01-09, 1:08

C'est la même chose au portugais. Aussi, je dirait c'est plus "website of" qui "website from".
2017 est l'année du (fr) et de l'(de) pour moi. Parle avec moi en eux, s'il te plait.


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