dEhiN's Language Log

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby księżycowy » 2021-06-28, 15:17

kevin wrote:If you want to avoid having such fears in the future, you know what you need to do. :P

Kill it completely? :twisted:

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby dEhiN » 2021-06-30, 1:40

Dormouse559 wrote:All roads lead to Proto-Indo-European :P "Four", ceathair and the Romance words all come from PIE *kʷetwóres. On the way to Proto-Germanic, /kʷ/ shifted to /p/, which in turn became /f/, and that's why most Germanic languages' words for "four" begin with /f/ or /v/. The Celtic and Romance progenitors kept /kʷ/, and it was only in certain of their descendants that /kʷ/ became a labial (see Eastern Romance, Sardinian, Brythonic).

Yeah, I forget about the velar stop in PIE becoming a bilabial fricative in PG. In fact, I feel like most of my knowledge of IE historical linguistics has gone by the wayside! :(

Dormouse559 wrote:The /θ/ in "fourth" is actually unconnected.

Would not have guessed that!

księżycowy wrote:It's just Meera, Hidson, Vijay, Paul, and me.

I'm so sorry Paul! I can't believe I forgot about you! You were one of the original los cuatro amigos.

kevin wrote:Also probably worth mentioning, while Old Irish indeed still had /θ/, <th> is pronounced /h/ in Modern Irish. Still the same origin, of course. /k/ isn't true of all Celtic languages either, Brythonic has /p/ like in Welsh "pedwar".

Is this true of Cornish and Breton as well, or just Welsh? That is, did /k/ become /p/ in Proto-Brythonic? Also, does anyone know what Gaulish had? For some reason, ever since reading Asterix as a kid, I've always been fascinated with what the Gauls would've actually spoken, even though, you know....Asterix and the gang are fictional...

kevin wrote:a cúig déag = fifteen
cúig bhád déag = fifteen boats (the -teen comes after the counted object)
cúig bhád déag mhóra = fifteen big boats (adjectives stay after the -teen)
cúig bhád déag mhóra is trí fichid = 75 big boats (vigesimal system: 15 big boats and 3x20)

Vigesimal system?! Very cool! Lol, the more I hear about languages like Irish, the more I think French's sixty-ten and four-twenty-ten are quite tame in comparison.

kevin wrote:These days, decimal "cúig bhád mhóra is seachtó" (five big boats and seventy) would be more common, but also more boring. ;)

I agree; of course, speakers will take the fun out of the language! :P

linguoboy wrote:a is easily the hardest-working particle in Irish. In some case, we can tell it's a worn-down version of a preposition (mainly do), but the a used before numerals already has this form in Old Irish, so it's difficult to say where it ultimately comes from. AFAIK, there's nothing similar in Brythonic or the Continental Celtic languages.

Do Irish linguists have some guesses or thoughts on where the use of a particle before numerals could've come from in the evolution of Proto-Irish to Old Irish? Also, grammatically, could this particle be analysed as akin to counters used in Japanese and Korean, except as like a "counter for just the numerals"? Maybe that doesn't make any sense...I just thought of the connection is how the particle is used and was wondering if that could be an accurate connection to draw.

linguoboy wrote:In addition to being used in counting, a also appears in certain contexts where English would have an ordinal, e.g. Séamas II/Séamas a Dó = James II/James the Second. It's also necessary where the number is used to distinguish entities, e.g. RTÉ a hAon (RTÉ One), RTÉ a Dó (RTÉ2).

What about an ordinal that's more adjectival and not part of a proper name/title, like "the second house"? Also, would movie sequels count for entities, like "Indiana Jones" vs "Indiana Jones 2"? I would imagine so, since for me, it fits with RTÉ One vs RTÉ2.
Native: (en-ca)
Active: (fr)(es)(pt-br)(ta-lk)(mi)(sq)(tl)
Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby kevin » 2021-06-30, 10:18

dEhiN wrote:
kevin wrote:/k/ isn't true of all Celtic languages either, Brythonic has /p/ like in Welsh "pedwar".

Is this true of Cornish and Breton as well, or just Welsh? That is, did /k/ become /p/ in Proto-Brythonic? Also, does anyone know what Gaulish had? For some reason, ever since reading Asterix as a kid, I've always been fascinated with what the Gauls would've actually spoken, even though, you know....Asterix and the gang are fictional...

This difference is the basis for the classification of languages as P-Celtic and Q-Celtic, where the Goidelic ones are Q-Celtic and Brythonic and most (?) Continental Celtic languages, including Gaulish, are P-Celtic. This classification isn't that popular any more because they are unlikely to be a group defined by genetic relationship, but of course when looking at the specific phenomenon, it still makes sense.

So while I knew Gaulish would have /p/, I had to google for the actual Gaulish word for "four", or actually to check whether it's even attested. It seems to be "petuar".

Vigesimal system?! Very cool! Lol, the more I hear about languages like Irish, the more I think French's sixty-ten and four-twenty-ten are quite tame in comparison.

Well, it's essentially the same system, just that Irish additionally has a fun word order in this context.

Do Irish linguists have some guesses or thoughts on where the use of a particle before numerals could've come from in the evolution of Proto-Irish to Old Irish?

I have never reseached this specific question, but I doubt it because while we have tons of sources in Old Irish, there is very little for the stages before it.

What about an ordinal that's more adjectival and not part of a proper name/title, like "the second house"? Also, would movie sequels count for entities, like "Indiana Jones" vs "Indiana Jones 2"? I would imagine so, since for me, it fits with RTÉ One vs RTÉ2.

No particle for ordinal numbers ("the second house" = "an dara teach"). And I agree with you for "Indiana Jones a dó".

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby księżycowy » 2021-06-30, 12:22

dEhiN wrote:I'm so sorry Paul! I can't believe I forgot about you! You were one of the original los cuatro amigos.

:bastard:

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby linguoboy » 2021-06-30, 14:01

dEhiN wrote:Also, grammatically, could this particle be analysed as akin to counters used in Japanese and Korean, except as like a "counter for just the numerals"? Maybe that doesn't make any sense...I just thought of the connection is how the particle is used and was wondering if that could be an accurate connection to draw.

It's rather the opposite of a counter, as it identifies a number as being a cardinal number and not a determiner. I think a closer parallel is to those languages where numerals are declined when used as determiners but not as cardinal numbers.

dEhiN wrote:
linguoboy wrote:In addition to being used in counting, a also appears in certain contexts where English would have an ordinal, e.g. Séamas II/Séamas a Dó = James II/James the Second. It's also necessary where the number is used to distinguish entities, e.g. RTÉ a hAon (RTÉ One), RTÉ a Dó (RTÉ2).

What about an ordinal that's more adjectival and not part of a proper name/title, like "the second house"? Also, would movie sequels count for entities, like "Indiana Jones" vs "Indiana Jones 2"? I would imagine so, since for me, it fits with RTÉ One vs RTÉ2.

Ordinal numbers, like other determiners, always precede the noun in Irish. The a only appears when the number follows. Compare:

cuid a dó "part two"
an dá chuid "the two parts"
an dara cuid "the second part"
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-07-03, 21:09

dEhiN wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Why do you hate UniLang so much?

(fr) Il est un snob des langues!
(es) ¡Es un esnob de los idiomas!

I think the term for this in Spanish is esnob lingüístico.
dEhiN wrote:
kevin wrote:
księżycowy wrote:"Felt"? :silly:

Ná bí dána, a Phóil!

You should see some of the things he says in our Discord chat! (I used GT for what you said, and it gave me, "Don't be naught, Paul!" I hope that's a good translation, if not, my reply may not apply! :D )

I said this on Discord already, but he said, "Don't be presumptuous, Paul!"
Also, apparently Paul has forgotten how to count in Irish. This morning, I gave him a challenge because he was bored: count to 100 but switch languages every 10 numbers, and you can't use English. Of course, Vijay took up the challenge

Because you asked me to :P
and passed it no problem. His languages of choice? Arabic, Amharic, Mandarin Chinese, Vlax Romani, Turkish, Malayalam, Swahili, Basque, Persian and Russian.

And that's not even including the fact that I also counted from 1 to 100 in Hindi, which I was saying is even harder (although I will admit switching languages did pose the unique difficulty for me of picking which languages to switch between!).
I suppose if someone else who doesn't consider English to be a native language were doing this, the rule would probably be to not use their native language(s). In my case, I could only really do 1-450:

Japanese: ichi, ni, san, shi, go, roku, shichi, hachi, kyou, juu

Portuguese: onze, doze, treze, quatorze, quinze, dezesseis, dezessete, dezoito, dezenove, vinte

Spanish: veintiuno, veintidós, veintitrés, veinticuatro, veinticinco, veintiséis, veintisiete, veintiocho, veintinueve, treinta

Tamil: muppathinondu, muppathirandu, muppathimuundu, muppathinaala, muppathinainju, muppathinaaRu, muppathineezhu, muppathineTTu, muppathinonbathu, naapathu

French: quarante et un, quarante-deux, quarante-trois, quarante-quatre, quarante-cinq, quarante-six, quarante-sept, quarante-huit, quarante-neuf, cinquante

Wow, that was a lot harder than I thought! I admit, I had to look up the spellings for several of them, particuarly between Spanish and Portuguese.

księżycowy wrote:I couldn't even do up to ten in most of the languages I've studied.

Irish: a haon, a dó, a trí.....
Polish: Fuck that.
German: eins, zwei, drei, vier, fünf, sechs, sieben, oacht, neun, zehn
Japanese: ichi, ni, san, yon, go, roku, nana, hachi, kyouu, juu
That's about it.

Rí.na.dTeangacha wrote:I hate counting. Numbers are stupid and boring and I hate them.

NB: I understand numbers are important, thank you numbers for all you have done! :P

Numbers are completely useless in some parts of the world, which is why languages there don't have them.
dEhiN wrote:I remember when Vijay was counting, I told him how I'm jealous and how does he do it, and his response was that it's pretty easy. I told him though that the numbers weren't one of the first things I learned in a language.

Yeah, and then I told you they weren't one of the first things I learned in a language, either. :P
But at least they often (if not usually) follow a pretty transparent pattern.
Most texts for beginners would, I imagine, include counting from 1 to 10.

Yeah, that is my experience.
kevin wrote:But then, he always forgets to participate in the study groups he started himself, so maybe we can't set the expectations too high?

Oh, trust me, he doesn't forget...just put waaaay too much on his plate.
I suppose if someone else who doesn't consider English to be a native language were doing this, the rule would probably be to not use their native language(s). In my case, I could only really do 1-40

I noticed that I have trouble finding Romance languages where I know all ten numbers in a row. Let me see what else I can use.

Spanish: uno, dos, tres, cuatro, cinco, seis, siete, ocho, nueve, diez
Czech: jedenáct, dvanáct, třináct, čtvrnáct, patnáct, šestnáct, sedmnáct, osmnáct, devatenáct, dvacet
Irish: fiche a haon, fiche a dó, fiche a trí, fiche a ceathair, fiche a cúig, fiche a sé, fiche a seacht, fiche a hocht, fiche a naoi, tríocha
Dutch: eenendertig, tweeëndertig, drieëndertig, vierendertig, vijfendertig, zesendertig, zevenendertig, achtendertig, negenendertig, veertig

I could add English, German and Swabian, depending on what the exact English/native language rule is, but I don't think I can do 41-50 in any other language.

What about 51-100? :mrgreen:
dEhiN wrote:It was called "los cuatro amigos" before Hidson

Known on UniLang as E}{pugnator
joined, and now it's "năm người bạn", which apparently means the five friends in Vietnamese

But now it's അഞ്ചു കൂട്ടുകാർ / ஐந்து நண்பர்கள், which means the same thing in Malayalam and Tamil, respectively.
WIthout looking anything up, I guess Czech is similar to English where a form of or the word for ten is appended to the end of the number? Compare -teen vs -náct.

Yeah.
According to Vijay, none of the Indo-Aryan languages have a pattern up to 100 at all, so you literally have to memorize each number. He tried showing an example once, but I swear, for me it seemed like there was a pattern. Chances are I was just glossing similar looking words together into a pattern.

That's not quite what I said; there are patterns, just not reliable ones, meaning ones that work across the board. I suppose that's technically wrong, but the only way you can make a reliable rule is by making one that's also pretty convoluted and not that useful: All two-digit numbers ending in 9 and preceding another two-digit number begin with [ʊn]- (but this still doesn't tell you how to actually form those two-digit numbers).
Vigesimal system?! Very cool! Lol, the more I hear about languages like Irish, the more I think French's sixty-ten and four-twenty-ten are quite tame in comparison.

Vigesimal systems are honestly pretty common.

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby kevin » 2021-07-03, 23:04

vijayjohn wrote:
I could add English, German and Swabian, depending on what the exact English/native language rule is, but I don't think I can do 41-50 in any other language.

What about 51-100? :mrgreen:

Come to think of it, I could probably do both in that conlang (if it even deserves to be called that) we created back then at school. But it's probably better for everyone if we just pretend that it never existed.

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby dEhiN » 2021-07-05, 1:53

kevin wrote:Come to think of it, I could probably do both in that conlang (if it even deserves to be called that) we created back then at school. But it's probably better for everyone if we just pretend that it never existed.

Because nothing generates interest like saying, "I'm going to mention this thing and then suggest we pretend it doesn't exist!" :silly: :wink:
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Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-08-10, 19:35

So how's your job going? Do you still have to deal with French and Spanish a lot?

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby dEhiN » 2021-08-15, 19:42

vijayjohn wrote:So how's your job going?

Really well, thanks for asking? I'm past my probationary period so my benefits have kicked in. I've also been able to utilize some of my computer programming skills at work, including starting a programming team at work to help with automating tasks, etc.

vijayjohn wrote:Do you still have to deal with French and Spanish a lot?

It varies. For French, there was a situation back in June or July where a fluently bilingual person was needed. I was planning to see if I could involve my partner in the call but it ended up that we actually have a partnership with a Quebec company for situations where fluent French is needed. Overall though, for French, we have two national companies who have employees in Quebec, so if they put in tickets, I will write back in French.

For Spanish, one of our national companies is actually an international company, and we have not just the Canadian operations as a client but also the Mexico City operations. I've asked to be put on those tickets, but in reality it's hard for me to use any Spanish for a few reasons. The first is that their primary contact with us is mostly bilingual - he still makes some mistakes like including "the" because you would use the definite article in Spanish. The second is that some of the staff are also pretty good in English. For those who aren't, the primary contact will reach out to us, or be on a call to help translate. The third is that my Spanish is probably still in the A1 range simplify for lack of grammar and the forgetting of a lot of words I used to know.

I do think my understanding for both written and oral is not so bad. But my production capabilities, both written and oral, are practically non-existent. In fact, for tickets put in by these employees in Mexico, I respond in English, mostly because trying to write in Spanish would have me looking up almost literally every word! When I respond in French, while it can take me a minute or two longer than if I were writing in English, it doesn't slow me down too much.

I had the company owner ask me the other day how my Spanish was. Reluctantly, I had to tell him beginner. Because the company is in the process of hiring another person for the help desk team, I suggested they get someone who is fluent in Spanish, which is what they are doing.

On a more positive note, though, I did a laptop setup for a new employee in Mexico, and so the Windows was all in Spanish. It took me a little longer doing the setup because I had to use Google Translate (though only twice!) or re-read things a bunch of times. Even my generally being able to know where to go and which options to click on based upon Windows in English didn't always help. For example, I knew how to go to the Control Panel in Windows. But then, I wasn't able to find the specific setting I wanted because I didn't know and couldn't figure out the Spanish term for that setting. (When I've worked on Windows in French, even if I couldn't read the whole phrase used for a setting name, I could pick out keywords to guide me.) In that specific case, I finally had to look up the Spanish way to say the English term.

It's too bad you don't live up here, or you could've applied for the new job opening! :D
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-08-17, 21:34

dEhiN wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:So how's your job going?

Really well, thanks for asking?

Any particular reason for the question mark? :lol:
It's too bad you don't live up here, or you could've applied for the new job opening! :D

I'm actually trying (well, in theory...) to start my own business using Twitter, however stupid of an idea that may be. :para:

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby dEhiN » 2021-08-18, 0:37

vijayjohn wrote:Any particular reason for the question mark? :lol:

Well...I wasn't sure if I wanted to thank you for asking! No, the real reason is I meant to type an exclamation mark and on my phone's keyboard, the two are next two each other.

I'm actually trying (well, in theory...) to start my own business using Twitter, however stupid of an idea that may be. :para:

That's not stupid at all! Is it a translation business? What's your twitter handle? And what will be your rates and services offered?
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Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-08-18, 2:21

My Twitter handle is @VijayJohn5 (don't you already have me added on Twitter? :hmm: ). I don't know what rates to charge yet, but the idea is to do not only translation but also offer language-related help in general. (Idk why I feel like I've mentioned this to you before. :hmm: Maybe I mentioned it to someone else. Anyway, for example, let's say that you see something in another language, on a computer or IRL, and you want to know what it means; then maybe I could help you figure out what you want to know). I could also help with searching for things; I've noticed people sometimes have trouble finding what they want, and I'm relatively good at doing that.

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby księżycowy » 2021-08-18, 10:58

vijayjohn wrote: I could also help with searching for things; I've noticed people sometimes have trouble finding what they want, and I'm relatively good at doing that.

I'm still waiting on a Swabian textbook in German.

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-08-18, 17:06

What made you think specifically of that, of all things? :lol:

Your dad getting into German all of a sudden?

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby księżycowy » 2021-08-18, 17:32

vijayjohn wrote:What made you think specifically of that, of all things? :lol:

The fact that you have yet to deliver.

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-08-18, 22:03

księżycowy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:What made you think specifically of that, of all things? :lol:

The fact that you have yet to deliver.

Isn't there tons of other shit you still want and that I've never found for you?

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby księżycowy » 2021-08-18, 22:22

:hmm: :noclue:

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby vijayjohn » 2021-08-19, 2:53

Really? That book is the only one you can remember? That's weird...I'm positive you've asked me for help finding other shit for you before!

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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby dEhiN » 2021-08-26, 2:47

Time for an update:

For a while, I haven't done any real language work. Even the various French users I was interacting with have either not put any tickets in lately or done so in English, and others on the team have dealt with them.

Recently, however, I started helping more with a client we have based in Mexico City, as I mentioned already. My company wasn't able to find a bilingual help desk technician, and then also realized that it's ok that the help desk isn't bilingual since it makes sense for an international company that they would need to use English.

This gave me an opportunity to take the plunge and start responding to the tickets from these employees in Spanish. I did have to look up more things than in French, but once I got into it, some Spanish started coming back.

I also had the opportunity to do 2 user calls in essentially Spanglish. Fortunately they both spoke some English, but in the end, to facilitate communication, I used Notepad and we typed messages back and forth. For the little I did speak, I confess to resorting to "tú" forms because those came to me much quicker than the "usted" ones. I was telling my partner that I find it harder to recall the usted forms in Spanish than I do the vous forms in French.

I'm thinking now that I would like to do some intentional Spanish study, especially speaking, but also verb conjugations as that's what gets me a lot - any tense/aspect/mood that's not present indicative, I have to look up when writing, or, when speaking, find another way to say it or switch to English. At least with future indicative, I can resort to the near future phrasing of "go + infinitive". I'm not as concerned with French since it's not currently as pressing, and I can get by at least.
Native: (en-ca)
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Inactive: (de)(ja)(yue)(oj)(id)(hu)(pl)(tr)(hi)(zh)(sv)(ko)(no)(it)(haw)(fy)(nl)(nah)(gl)(ro)(cy)(oc)(an)(sr)(en_old)(got)(sux)(grc)(la)(sgn-us)


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