Any two-digit number of languages being learned or micro-learned in rotation

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Re: [not really a TAC, but ... ] PT RO IT FR ES SV DA NO SWA EO JP NL AF & language exchange offer in any of those

Postby IpseDixit » 2018-10-31, 11:27

IMHO, you're making it look more scary than it actually is. Yes, they're 14 but only because 5 of them also have a nasalized version; so you basically have to learn how to nasalize vowels, it's not like having to learn how to pronounce 14 vowels that are altogether different from one another.

So if someone was a native of Spanish (or of any other language with far less vowels than Portuguese), what could he do in order to learn them?


I had to learn a lot of new vowels when learning English and other languages too. I don't think there's a magic bullet, you basically have to try and imitate the sounds as best as you can. Some notions of phonetics might also help you out (for example, when learning French, I found it very helpful to know that the French <u> is basically an <ee> as in "leek" pronounced with rounded lips). Maybe on youtube you can find some tutorials (there are many for English where they let you see the movements of the mouth), but I believe that at the end of the day it all boils down to you trying and imitate the sounds (and possibly receiving feedbacks from native speakers).

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Re: [not really a TAC, but ... ] PT RO IT FR ES SV DA NO SWA EO JP NL AF & language exchange offer in any of those

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-10-31, 12:42

IpseDixit wrote:IMHO, you're making it look more scary than it actually is. Yes, they're 14 but only because 5 of them also have a nasalized version; so you basically have to learn how to nasalize vowels, it's not like having to learn how to pronounce 14 vowels that are altogether different from one another.


Although I would disagree about the "making it more scary" part. :wink: Someone simply liked to know how to learn them. But other than that: it really is good to know that some of them are the very same, other than "plain" pronounciation or nasalization.

IpseDixit wrote:I had to learn a lot of new vowels when learning English and other languages too. I don't think there's a magic bullet, you basically have to try and imitate the sounds as best as you can. Some notions of phonetics might also help you out (for example, when learning French, I found it very helpful to know that the French <u> is basically an <ee> as in "leek" pronounced with rounded lips). Maybe on youtube you can find some tutorials (there are many for English where they let you see the movements of the mouth), but I believe that at the end of the day it all boils down to you trying and imitate the sounds (and possibly receiving feedbacks from native speakers).


Yes, the part about mouth movements surely is important. Similar to knowing where exactly a certain consonant comes from (also related to "the position inside the head", for the lack of a better expression right now).

And also you are right about English having many, many vowels. Now especially that one has been influenced by a multitude of other tongues (as in "the mother tongue of somebody"). Germanic background, and possibly Celtic, too. Norman French. Latin and ancient Greek linguistical heritage. And possibly some more that didn't come to my mind. Now that single language contains thousands and thousands of words of different origin, and also one of the most unpredictable spelling systems in the world. :yep: :D . Some even go as far as saying that unless you heard the pronounciation of an English word (or read it using IPA, for example), you do not know how to pronounce it.

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Re: [not really a TAC, but ... ] PT RO IT FR ES SV DA NO SWA EO JP NL AF & language exchange offer in any of those

Postby IpseDixit » 2018-10-31, 12:48

By movements I meant the articulation of sounds, I don't know why I came up with that clunky wording. :lol:

The point is, a video can only show you what is visible from the outside, which is not the entire picture, but I guess it can still help.

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Re: [not really a TAC, but ... ] PT RO IT FR ES SV DA NO SWA EO JP NL AF & language exchange offer in any of those

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-10-31, 13:02

IpseDixit wrote:By movements I meant the articulation of sounds, I don't know why I came up with that clunky wording. :lol:


:idea: We all here aren't natives of English. Except those many who are. But apart from this single exception, this rule is fully valid. :ohwell:

[EDIT: I wrote my reply inside the quote tag by accident, then changed it a few seconds later... :nope: ]

IpseDixit wrote:The point is, a video can only show you what is visible from the outside, which is not the entire picture, but I guess it can still help.


Sure. It is a major piece of information. And when combining it with the other one (description/image related to the inside), it becomes complete information.

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Re: [not really a TAC, but ... ] PT RO IT FR ES SV DA NO SWA EO JP NL AF & language exchange offer in any of those

Postby dEhiN » 2018-10-31, 20:28

Osias wrote:ANYWAY there are plenty more than Spanish. And the ones that change in the end of syllabes according to emphasis, like 'tudo' (tudu/tudô).

When is 'tudo' pronounced like /tudo/? My understanding, at least of Brazilian Portuguese pronunciation, is that it's always /tudu/.
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Re: [not really a TAC, but ... ] PT RO IT FR ES SV DA NO SWA EO JP NL AF & language exchange offer in any of those

Postby dEhiN » 2018-10-31, 20:34

SGP, are you open to correction of your posts? I've noticed that sometimes you use a period where a comma is what you need. An example would be:
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:Now especially that one has been influenced by a multitude of other tongues (as in "the mother tongue of somebody"). Germanic background, and possibly Celtic, too. Norman French. Latin and ancient Greek linguistical heritage. And possibly some more that didn't come to my mind.
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Re: [not really a TAC, but ... ] PT RO IT FR ES SV DA NO SWA EO JP NL AF & language exchange offer in any of those

Postby Osias » 2018-10-31, 21:00

dEhiN wrote:
Osias wrote:ANYWAY there are plenty more than Spanish. And the ones that change in the end of syllabes according to emphasis, like 'tudo' (tudu/tudô).

When is 'tudo' pronounced like /tudo/? My understanding, at least of Brazilian Portuguese pronunciation, is that it's always /tudu/.

When we want everything. E-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g. Tudo. All. TU-DO. Tudinho. T-u-d-o. TU. DÔ.

It happens also with other words like 'e' (and) and also when the phone call is bad and we repeat words.
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Re: [not really a TAC, but ... ] PT RO IT FR ES SV DA NO SWA EO JP NL AF & language exchange offer in any of those

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-10-31, 21:11

dEhiN wrote:SGP, are you open to correction of your posts? I've noticed that sometimes you use a period where a comma is what you need. An example would be:
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:Now especially that one has been influenced by a multitude of other tongues (as in "the mother tongue of somebody"). Germanic background, and possibly Celtic, too. Norman French. Latin and ancient Greek linguistical heritage. And possibly some more that didn't come to my mind.


Yes I am open to it, but only if you speak Québécois to me. :lol:
Yes I am open to it.
Maybe you could elaborate just a bit on this one: If someone uses a period instead of a comma because (at least in several cases) he does so in order to shorten the sentences, is this still outside the scope of Standard English? Because this is (as I said, at least in several cases) my main motivation for doing so. People nowadays tend to prefer sentences that aren't too long (unlike the ancient Romans :wink: ). So that SGP guy :hmm: really would like to know your answer about that one.
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Re: [not really a TAC, but ... ] PT RO IT FR ES SV DA NO SWA EO JP NL AF & language exchange offer in any of those

Postby linguoboy » 2018-10-31, 21:13

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:Maybe you could elaborate just a bit on this one: If someone uses a period instead of a comma because (at least in several cases) he did so in order to shorten the sentences, is this still outside the scope of Standard English? Because this is (as I said, at least in several cases) my main motivation for doing so. People nowadays tend to prefer sentences that aren't too long (unlike the ancient Romans :wink: ). So that SGP guy :hmm: really would like to know your answer about that one.

Those aren't even sentences. Just fragments. Words.

I wouldn't call this "nonstandard". It's a stylistic choice, which means it's more appropriate to some registers than others. I find it somewhat jarring in this context, since posts here tend to be a little more conversational and a little less telegraphic.
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Re: [not really a TAC, but ... ] PT RO IT FR ES SV DA NO SWA EO JP NL AF & language exchange offer in any of those

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-10-31, 21:20

linguoboy wrote:I wouldn't call this "nonstandard". It's a stylistic choice, which means it's more appropriate to some registers than others. I find it somewhat jarring in this context, since posts here tend to be a little more conversational and a little less telegraphic.


Jarring even :wink: ? Oh my...
Well, I'd just like to tell you that my main motivation for doing so is/was that many others prefer sentences that are rather short. But possibly this forum is a place where this is different, too. As for myself, I do like long sentences, provided that they do not contain several words that are just really unneeded filling words without serving any real purpose. Coming from a German language background (native), I do feel somewhat inclined to sentences that include several commas, or Kommata as we call them because we apply the Latin and Greek plural rules (using their first case only). :) Nevertheless, some people simply would say "Kommas", but this way of expression is rather new.

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Re: [not really a TAC, but ... ] PT RO IT FR ES SV DA NO SWA EO JP NL AF & language exchange offer in any of those

Postby linguoboy » 2018-10-31, 21:28

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:Coming from a German language background (native), I do feel somewhat inclined to sentences that include several commas, or Kommata as we call them because we apply the Latin and Greek plural rules (using their first case only). :) Nevertheless, some people simply would say "Kommas", but this way of expression is rather new.

Peter Schmachthagen wrote:Bei der Eindeutschung solcher an einen Elfenbeinturm erinnernden Fachbegriffe hat es immerhin einige Fortschritte gegeben. Mussten wir früher „Kommata“ für die Mehrzahl der bekannten Beistriche sagen, so heißt es heute – auch fachsprachlich – nur noch die Kommas.

Language can change quickly. Usages don't have to be particularly old to be nigh-universal.
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Re: [not really a TAC, but ... ] PT RO IT FR ES SV DA NO SWA EO JP NL AF & language exchange offer in any of those

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-10-31, 21:45

linguoboy wrote:Usages don't have to be particularly old to be nigh-universal.


I, too, wouldn't say at all that a usage cannot be nigh-universal unless it is particulary old.

And as for the rest... theoretically, there is something I could add to it, and it would also be related to the citation's content. (Because even if the person you quoted was something like an expert on the German language, I still wouldn't take his words as a valid argumentum ad verecundiam [argument from authority]. To avoid any possible misunderstanding only: this doesn't mean that I consider yourself doing so either.)

But only theoretically, because I haven't come here to argue or even to appear as if I was arguing. (Also, even if mentioning the following probably wouldn't be necessary, I'd like everyone to note that what I just wrote doesn't mean at all that I am under the impression of someone else wanting to argue.)
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Re: [not really a TAC, but ... ] PT RO IT FR ES SV DA NO SWA EO JP NL AF & language exchange offer in any of those

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-10-31, 21:55

But what I just wrote about "I wouldn't take his words as a valid argument from authority" was related to this part of his saying: "Mussten wir früher „Kommata“ für die Mehrzahl der bekannten Beistriche sagen, so heißt es heute – auch fachsprachlich – nur noch die Kommas."

This is because I couldn't agree to the "nur" (only) part, i.e. "nowadays it is die Kommas only, no matter if it is about everday speech or expert speech". (Because this isn't the case, neither for this, nor for that).

As for the other part, about the possibility of saying "die Kommas", I fully agree with him anyway. Even if this is rather new (intentionally marked it as bold here and in a previous post, because it isn't "brand new" either).

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Re: [not really a TAC, but ... ] PT RO IT FR ES SV DA NO SWA EO JP NL AF & language exchange offer in any of those

Postby linguoboy » 2018-10-31, 21:55

I didn't come here to argue either. But one of the main reasons I participate in Unilang is to promote the spread of accurate information about languages and stem the flow of misinformation.

To that end:
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:(Because even if the person you quoted was something like an expert on the German language, I still wouldn't take his words as a valid argumentum ad verecundiam [argument from authority].

For that, I refer you to the Duden, and all other recently-published German lexicographical works, which uniformly give the plural first as Kommas and only secondarily as Kommata. Since this ordering is based on frequency, it indicates that it's far more than "some people" who use the analogical plural, it's the clear majority of speakers.

Ultimately this is an empirical question. Can you find even ten recent examples of the plural Kommata in published works? I can easily find ten examples of Kommas.
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Re: [not really a TAC, but ... ] PT RO IT FR ES SV DA NO SWA EO JP NL AF & language exchange offer in any of those

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-10-31, 22:33

linguoboy wrote:I didn't come here to argue either. But one of the main reasons I participate in Unilang is to promote the spread of accurate information about languages and stem the flow of misinformation.


As long as this is meant as a pure factual statement only: I fully agree that one needs to have true and valid information about languages.

linguoboy wrote:To that end:
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:(Because even if the person you quoted was something like an expert on the German language, I still wouldn't take his words as a valid argumentum ad verecundiam [argument from authority].


For that, I refer you to the Duden, and all other recently-published German lexicographical works, which uniformly give the plural first as Kommas and only secondarily as Kommata. Since this ordering is based on frequency, it indicates that it's far more than "some people" who use the analogical plural, it's the clear majority of speakers.


As for books like the Duden, while I do not believe in something like "Blindly Believing The Language Experts" (again, not ascribing that one to you either), I certainly do recognize that those books are a much more complete and useful source of information for questions like this than the words of a single person, even if he was a German language expert.

Also, if books like the Duden confirm that there still is a second possibility called Kommata, then this even contradicts the citation mentioned in one of your recent posts in this thread. This is because the person quoted said that the only form being used (in both everday and expert speech) would be Kommas.

And as for "some people say Kommas", I didn't use "some" in the meaning of "a few". Instead, this is about one of its meanings (as mentioned in the dictionary of Merriam-Webster online), which is " being one, a part, or an unspecified number of something (such as a class or group) named or implied".

So if I was to rephrase my previous words, I also could say: "It is without any doubt a part of the German language to use the Latin and Greek plural when using Latin and Greek words. One example would be Kommata. But there is a certain amount of persons saying Kommas. This usage is neither entirely new, nor incredibly old".

linguoboy wrote:Ultimately this is an empirical question. Can you find even ten recent examples of the plural Kommata in published works? I can easily find ten examples of Kommas.


I possibly could find some recent examples, but I do not have any reason to search for them. "Expert speech" (Fachsprache) obviously is about both written and spoken communication. I couldn't deny that there still are many Latinophiles and Greekophiles among those experts, and those people really like using Latin and Greek terms as often as possible when talking to each other, and when talking to non-experts with a similar affinity, too, not only using nouns that still are rather well-known, but also full well-known phrases (among themselves) and proverbs.

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Swahili: amba- and -ye suffix

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-11-01, 9:44

Recently learned the Swahili amba- and -ye suffixes.
This is about relative pronouns.

"Ni wewe ambaye ulisoma kitabu.
It is you who studied the book.

Ni wewe uliyesoma kitabu.
It is you who studied the book [rephrased using a verb and -ye]."

The suffix for "you" in these sentences is -ye. But the very same one is also used for mimi (I) and yeye (he/she).

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Re: [not really a TAC, but ... ] PT RO IT FR ES SV DA NO SWA EO JP NL AF & language exchange offer in any of those

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-11-03, 0:50

dEhiN wrote:SGP, are you open to correction of your posts?


SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:Yes I am open to it, but only if you speak Québécois to me. :lol: Yes I am open to it.


Eh... dEhiN... how come man? You still nah speak iny Québécois wit me? :D

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SGP's full disclosure

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-11-03, 1:05

Also there is something you (not just one person, but you as in "you all") didn't know yet about that SGP guy.

He didn't come here to practice languages only.

So what is his second reason?
Has he got 353.43 liters of snake oil he would like to sell?
No, not at all.

Then what about 231.15?
No, because... he simply hasn't got any.

Instead, the second reason is...
major "spoiler" ahead...

.

.

.

.

The second reason is practice of some social abilities of himself.

And yes, I do know very well that there are certain limits of doing so online.
But speaking of this matter, I only consider the forum activity as something additional.

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Re: [not really a TAC, but ... ] PT RO IT FR ES SV DA NO SWA EO JP NL AF & language exchange offer in any of those

Postby dEhiN » 2018-11-03, 1:22

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:Eh... dEhiN... how come man? You still nah speak iny Québécois wit me? :D

En fait, je ne parle pas beaucoup de québécois. Je pratiquais le français parisien.
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Re: [not really a TAC, but ... ] PT RO IT FR ES SV DA NO SWA EO JP NL AF & language exchange offer in any of those

Postby SomehowGeekyPolyglot » 2018-11-03, 1:27

dEhiN wrote:En fait, je ne parle pas beaucoup de québécois. Je pratiquais le français parisien.


Ah... now dat explains a lot to mi. So yuh wan fi tak de Parisian way wit di others when yuh speak French, rite or no?


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