Page 9 of 13

Re: TAC 2018 - Irusia (et, es, pt, tl, id)

Posted: 2018-02-08, 19:13
by voron
dEhiN wrote:I've never understood that: creating a language learning resource for a language that's completely in that language.

The rationale is simple: when used in a class, this kind of books is suitable for a speaker of every language. It's especially useful when the class has students of different nations which may not share a common language.

Saim once mentioned in his TAC that it's his favorite kind of books (IIRC). Why? I think it's because they are usually published in the country where the language is spoken (to be used at the language courses in that country), so they are prepared by native speakers who are emerged in the language and know better its most up-to-date state, the most useful phrases, colloquial expressions, the most cited cultural references etc.

David, you used to teach ESL no? Didn't you use the same kind of books at your classes? They are very popular for teaching English here (series like Headway https://www.amazon.com/New-Headway-Elem ... 0194769100).

Re: TAC 2018 - Irusia (et, es, pt, tl, id)

Posted: 2018-02-08, 20:39
by linguoboy
voron wrote:I think it's because they are usually published in the country where the language is spoken (to be used at the language courses in that country), so they are prepared by native speakers who are emergedimmersed in the language and know better its most up-to-date state, the most useful phrases, colloquial expressions, the most cited cultural references etc.

A lot of the best textbooks I've used are prepared by a team consisting of at least one native speaker and one non-native expert. I think it's a good combination because, as you say, the native speaker may know better what's really current. (Or they may not--every speaker of a language has different interests and different social circles, so they won't all have the same insight into what's most current everywhere.) But the non-native expert usually has more insight into what will be difficult for foreign learners.

I've seen this any number of times IRL where a student asks a native speaker a question about usage and they have no idea how to answer; they just know what "sounds right". But the L2 instructor, on the other hand, can give a meaningful explanation and a good rule-of-thumb because they themselves remember having to learn how to say this as an adult. Of course, that's most useful when the audience is mostly students with the same linguistic background as the non-native expert. But that's by far the most common case in the USA.

Re: TAC 2018 - Irusia (et, es, pt, tl, id)

Posted: 2018-02-09, 3:33
by dEhiN
voron wrote:David, you used to teach ESL no? Didn't you use the same kind of books at your classes? They are very popular for teaching English here (series like Headway https://www.amazon.com/New-Headway-Elem ... 0194769100).

No, I never did. I have worked and do work as an ESL tutor, so private one-on-one lessons. I've mainly done conversational ESL, so in that respect there's no book I need to follow. But I see your point: if I had to follow a lesson plan, I would look at existing books aimed for English teachers. I guess with these books in other languages, I've looked at it from the point of view of an autodidact.

linguoboy wrote:I've seen this any number of times IRL where a student asks a native speaker a question about usage and they have no idea how to answer; they just know what "sounds right". But the L2 instructor, on the other hand, can give a meaningful explanation and a good rule-of-thumb because they themselves remember having to learn how to say this as an adult. Of course, that's most useful when the audience is mostly students with the same linguistic background as the non-native expert. But that's by far the most common case in the USA.

In my experience, the only time I've seen a native speaker who was able to give a good detailed answer was someone who's either a language teacher themselves, or is a language enthusiast (like us) and has studied one or more languages. Even if their linguistic background is fairly basic, they still have more experience with considering why something is the way it is, and can generally apply the same reasoning process to their native language.

That's happened to me quite a few times where a student asks me a question, and initially I can only say what "sounds right". But because I both have experience tutoring in English and have studied other languages, I then spend a few minutes analysing what sounds right, and am usually able to come up with a reasonable explanation of the why.

Re: TAC 2018 - Irusia (et, es, pt, tl, id)

Posted: 2018-02-09, 5:39
by Linguaphile
dEhiN wrote:
voron wrote:David, you used to teach ESL no? Didn't you use the same kind of books at your classes? They are very popular for teaching English here (series like Headway https://www.amazon.com/New-Headway-Elem ... 0194769100).

No, I never did. I have worked and do work as an ESL tutor, so private one-on-one lessons. I've mainly done conversational ESL, so in that respect there's no book I need to follow. But I see your point: if I had to follow a lesson plan, I would look at existing books aimed for English teachers. I guess with these books in other languages, I've looked at it from the point of view of an autodidact.

I have taught ESL, sometimes teaching native speakers of up to seven different languages in the same class, and yes, this is exactly why the book needs to be entirely in the target language. In my experience, with a book entirely written in the language being studied, you also end up doing less "translating" in your head, thinking a bit more in the L2, which can be a plus.
For myself as a learner I also really like using books written entirely in the language I'm learning, with a couple caveats:
(1) I prefer to get at least a few "A0" basics down first before immersing myself in a monolingual text (which also means that at least the first chapter or two of a monolingual A1 text will ideally be review, which helps a lot - by the time I get into new material I've figured out the lesson format and the vocab they're using for instructions, etc.);
(2) it should of course be written by a professional who is familiar with language teaching, linguistics, textbook design.
But yeah, if you can find a text that is really meant to be used for teaching the language to immigrants within the country where the language is spoken, sometimes they can be fantastic resources. They often include a lot of cultural notes (which I personally like), often include very realistic scenarios and authentic reading/listening practice, they often include vocab that is overlooked in bilingual texts (more up-to-date, more slang, or more classroom and linguistics terminology). And on a personal note, I also like using monolingual books as a learner because it gives me a taste of how my students feel when they dive into our monolingual ESL text; it gives me a better idea of what to look for in the texts that we use and where they might need extra support if I've encountered the same types of issues in monolingual texts myself.
But of course, whether a monolingual text is "good" or not entirely depends on the quality of the text and the abilities of the author.

Re: TAC 2018 - Irusia (et, es, pt, tl, id)

Posted: 2018-02-09, 16:18
by voron
Linguaphile wrote:But yeah, if you can find a text that is really meant to be used for teaching the language to immigrants within the country where the language is spoken, sometimes they can be fantastic resources.

Also, they have lots of pictures, and everyone loves pictures. :)

Here is a page from A1 Kurdish book, isn't it lovely.
https://ibb.co/dbOv6H

Re: TAC 2018 - Irusia (et, es, pt, tl, id)

Posted: 2018-02-09, 21:36
by aaakknu
A Croatian course on Memrise: 4,5% done.
English from Indonesian on Duolingo: 44% done.

Re: TAC 2018 - Irusia (et, es, pt, tl, id)

Posted: 2018-02-10, 23:15
by vijayjohn
What made you start doing Croatian, Irusia? :)

Re: TAC 2018 - Irusia (et, es, pt, tl, id)

Posted: 2018-02-11, 14:28
by aaakknu
vijayjohn wrote:What made you start doing Croatian, Irusia? :)

I am not actually learning it, rather dabbling. Last semester I was going to apply for Erasmus in Croatia, but missed the deadline. In spite of this, I decided that will learn some Croatian anyway.

Re: TAC 2018 - Irusia (et, es, pt, tl, id)

Posted: 2018-02-11, 18:07
by vijayjohn
Ah, okay, thanks! :)

Re: TAC 2018 - Irusia (et, es, pt, tl, id)

Posted: 2018-02-12, 0:00
by aaakknu
I am missing Finnish and Greenlandic so much. I decide to postpone learning these languages until I reach my goals for other ones, but after reading Iván's TAC update in Finnish and responding to it and after posting a Greenlandic song in the Song contest thread, my desire to return to study of these languages became even stronger. But I think I still won't do it.

(pt-BR) I did the test and got A2. However, I don't know if I can trust it.

Re: TAC 2018 - Irusia (et, es, pt, tl, id)

Posted: 2018-02-12, 17:32
by dEhiN
Irusia wrote:(pt-BR) I did the test and got A2. However, I don't know if I can trust it.

From my experience, take online tests like this with a grain of salt. They can be a good indicator of your reading level, as well as your vocab and grammar abilities. But they obviously don't test for listening/speaking skills, and rarely for writing skills. Even with grammar, I've found in the past that I didn't really know the full question, but just by knowing a few grammar patterns, I was able to get the right answer.

Re: TAC 2018 - Irusia (et, es, pt, tl, id)

Posted: 2018-02-12, 17:38
by Luís
Just a note: even though they're using the Brazilian flag, that test is actually in European Portuguese, for some reason.

Re: TAC 2018 - Irusia (et, es, pt, tl, id)

Posted: 2018-02-12, 20:32
by aaakknu
Luís wrote:Just a note: even though they're using the Brazilian flag, that test is actually in European Portuguese, for some reason.

That's strange. Do you know about any tests for Brazilian Portuguese?

Re: TAC 2018 - Irusia (et, es, pt, tl, id)

Posted: 2018-02-12, 20:33
by aaakknu
(en) An introduction to functional grammar - page 20/700

Re: TAC 2018 - Irusia (et, es, pt, tl, id)

Posted: 2018-02-12, 21:17
by Luís
Irusia wrote:
Luís wrote:Just a note: even though they're using the Brazilian flag, that test is actually in European Portuguese, for some reason.

That's strange. Do you know about any tests for Brazilian Portuguese?


Sorry, I'm afraid I don't know of any.

Re: TAC 2018 - Irusia (et, es, pt, tl, id)

Posted: 2018-02-13, 3:58
by vijayjohn
dEhiN wrote:But they obviously don't test for listening/speaking skills

They actually do have tests for listening skills, too, though.

Re: TAC 2018 - Irusia (et, es, pt, tl, id)

Posted: 2018-02-13, 7:12
by aaakknu
vijayjohn wrote:They actually do have tests for listening skills, too, though.

Where? I haven't noticed them.

Re: TAC 2018 - Irusia (et, es, pt, tl, id)

Posted: 2018-02-13, 12:31
by voron
Irusia wrote:Where? I haven't noticed them.

https://www.languagetrainers.co.uk/listening-tests.php

Re: TAC 2018 - Irusia (et, es, pt, tl, id)

Posted: 2018-02-13, 12:40
by aaakknu

Thank you!

I did the Portuguese listening test (the first one only) and my result was A2 (48/50 points).

I also did the Spanish listening test (the second one only) and my result was C1 (28/30 points)

Re: TAC 2018 - Irusia (et, es, pt, tl, id)

Posted: 2018-02-14, 10:12
by księżycowy
Congrats on becoming a mod! :D