TAC 2018 - Vijay

[vijayjohn]

Is it my ears, or are the tones off a little with the Lesson 1 dialogue in Taiwanese Made Easier?

I think that's just tone sandhi.

To me it's so weird that Americans hate Erhua. Your own language has it.

Not like Beijinghuar, though! Or at least, not like how people say Beijinghua has it.

[księżycowy]

There's certainly something to be said about how it's realized in both languages for sure.

I think that's just tone sandhi.

That actually is a good point. I remember them talking about tone sandhi in one of the chapters, but I forgot how they dealt with it.

And, of course I just had to pick a variety of Chinese which has some complicated tone sandhi.

[vijayjohn]

You'll get used to it.

[OldBoring]

If you don't want tone sandhi, then Mandarin or Cantonese.

[księżycowy]

I never said I didn't want it. I was just noting that it has complex tone sandhi.

[vijayjohn]

If you don't want tone sandhi, then Mandarin or Cantonese.

Except that Mandarin has tone sandhi, too, so Cantonese. Though I think Cantonese might sort of have a little, too

[księżycowy]

Is Suzhou dialect worth learning, or should I not bother? I mean, I plan to learn Shanghainese.

(Maybe I should have made that a choice. But I don't know if you have any of the books I have. Or any at all for Shanghainese.)

[vijayjohn]

Is Suzhou dialect worth learning, or should I not bother?

I may be wrong about this, but I think Suzhou dialect is pretty heavily influenced by Mandarin. (But less than Hangzhou dialect, of course).

I mean, I plan to learn Shanghainese.

Inb4 OB tells you Northern Wu (including Shanghainese) is shit and too close to Mandarin and you should go for Southern Wu instead

But I don't know if you have any of the books I have. Or any at all for Shanghainese.

I don't have any books at all that are specific to any variety of Chinese other than Mandarin, Cantonese, or Amoy Hokkien. Of course, I do have the books I told you about by Norman and Ramsey about Sinitic languages in general (Ramsey covers more than that), so those have at least a few details about each set of dialects at least.

I also have lessons for learning Qingtianese through Mandarin (courtesy of OB). I would probably be okay with doing those with you, actually. I've always wanted to try talking to OB in his native language.

[księżycowy]

Is there audio? I'd honestly be quite interested. Be it now or in the future.

[vijayjohn]

Yep.

http://qtnews.zjol.com.cn/video/text.asp?id=3998

OB says there are a bunch of inaccuracies in it, etc., but that's what we have him for.

[księżycowy]

Interesting. (Even though my antivirus says it's a malicious site and blocks it. )

I think I'll have to say "later" to doing this with you, but I seriously am interested.

And, I dont care, I'm still going to learn Shanghainese, regardless of whether it's crap or not. Apparently Taiwanese Mandarin is crap to OB, and that's not stopping me either, so.....

[vijayjohn]

Even though my antivirus says it's a malicious site and blocks it.

And, I dont care, I'm still going to learn Shanghainese, regardless of whether it's crap or not. Apparently Taiwanese Mandarin is crap to OB, and that's not stopping me either, so.....

Actually, I might be okay with doing Shanghainese, too, if that's possible! I tried to memorize the first two dialogues from Zaunheireiwo Zemen when I was fourteen or something (with the audio). As I remember them off the top of my head, they were:

A: Chin men, non shiote Dusikieu lele alitae va?
'Excuse me, do you know where the library is?'
B: Veshiote.
'No.'
A: Keme, non shiote veshiote vujin youte sa hauge Síti va?
'Then do you know where the nearest bookstore is?'
B: Teivechi, wo a veshiote.
'Sorry, I don't know that, either.'
A: Séule, zhazha non au.
'Well, thanks anyway.'
B: Vio zha.
'You're welcome.'

and

A: Non yizei laekei tzu sa?
'What are you doing?'
B: Beishian youshici lairei.
'Playing video games.'
A: Getze youshici non tzéujin mare?
'Do you like this videogame?'
B: Éi, zire. Mei haobeshianre va.
'Yeah. Isn't it fun?'
A: En. Sazenkuaun dakin khuyi beishian haora?
[I don't actually remember what this means. Maybe something like 'yeah. How long are you going to keep playing it?']
B: Tzusa? Non shian tsechi a?
'Why? You want to go out?'
A: En, wo shian tika-li maire shinre ízaun.
'Yeah, I want to go out and buy some new clothes.'
B: Gei wo séise fentzon, hao va?
'Give me forty minutes, okay?'
A: Haore.
'Okay.'

My brother used to think these dialogues were kind of funny to listen to, especially the first one where the first guy says this long sentence and then the second guy just says veshiote.

[księżycowy]

So, you possibly be ok with Shanghainese, but based on what you've said and done so far, you're not ok with Hokkien?

Forget the whole thing I guess.

Just remember, I offered....

[vijayjohn]

So, you possibly be ok with Shanghainese, but based on what you've said and done so far, you're not ok with Hokkien?

Yeah, idk, I think it's because Hokkien is one of the Big Three dialects that people study, and I'm more curious about the rest.

[księżycowy]

I'm not sure how heavy studied it is compared to Mandarin or Cantonese, but ok. By non-Chinese I mean.

[vijayjohn]

I'd say it's pretty heavily studied by non-Chinese, maybe because the Taiwanese government is apparently not trying to kill it. Travlang for instance has only Mandarin, Cantonese, and Taiwanese.

[księżycowy]

I'm still not actually convinced, but I of course acknowledge it's more studied than, say, Shanghainese.

Maybe this is nothing more than my own ignorance on the matter, but I have a feeling most people going to Taiwan focus on Mandarin more than anything else.

[vijayjohn]

Oh, okay, I probably misunderstood what you meant, then. I just meant Mandarin, Cantonese, and Hokkien are much more popular language/dialect-learning choices than the others. These days, I doubt even Cantonese (let alone Hokkien) is all that popular compared to Mandarin.

[OldBoring]

Wut? Did I say Taiwanese Mandarin is shit?

I think Shanghainese is more influenced by Mandarin than Suzhounese, considered the representative of Wu, but I could be wrong.

[księżycowy]

Oh, okay, I probably misunderstood what you meant, then. I just meant Mandarin, Cantonese, and Hokkien are much more popular language/dialect-learning choices than the others. These days, I doubt even Cantonese (let alone Hokkien) is all that popular compared to Mandarin.

Exactly, which means it's not all that popular after all. More popular that Shanghainese, sure. But that's not saying all that much.

TL;DR: Learn Hokkien with me!

Wut? Did I say Taiwanese Mandarin is shit?

Uh, yeah. More than once. Though I'm willing to believe it was a joke.

I think Shanghainese is more influenced by Mandarin than Suzhounese, considered the representative of Wu, but I could be wrong.

Where as I can't speak to which form of Wu is more influenced by Mandarin, I can say that Shanghainese seems to have a lot in common with Mandarin grammatically/syntactically. My one textbook for it basically says that for the most part all you have to do is put the Shanghainese word into the Mandarin sentence slot. Or something like that.