TAC 2018 - Antea (Finnish, Swedish)

[Antea]

Well, finally I decided that next year I will be learning these two new languages. That means, that I still will be watching and listening to material in the languages I have a B1-B2 level, like Arabic, Russian and German, but that moreover I will begin with these two new languages almost from scratch. Hindi/Urdu is still in an A2 level, so I will also try to learn something more.

I have been wanderlusting about Finnish for more than a year now, so I suppose it’s time to do something about it. I know perfectly well that it’s a difficult language with a lot of complicated grammar. So I am not intending to be able to speak it for the moment, but I will focuse myself in understanding (listening material and reading texts). For that I will need first of all to learn vocabulary.

But about vocabulary, I have a little problem. Maybe because most of the material I find is through Russian websites, a lot videos and texts are in Karelian and in Veps . And I don’t know exactly why, but I have the feeling that I will understand something better in these two (maybe they use more similar words to Russian? ). But it’s a mess, because some words are different and I can’t find them in a Finnish dictionary. And I don’t know exactly if these varieties are mutually intelligible with Finnish or not .

And could it really be possible that there are actually more audio materials in the internet in Karelian than in Finnish? Well, maybe it’s just that I don’t know where to look . So any suggestions will be welcomed .

I am not learning it really from scratch, because I started maybe two years ago (that was before Russian swept all over). But now I don’t remember anything, so I will have to start again. I also hope that maybe I could be able to find Finnish resources through Swedish internet sites.

Well, I suppose it will be an interesting year

[Antea]

I am already stressed. I supposed I should make some study plan or at least point out some resources or guidelines that I am going to follow. First of all, I think I will use Assimil for both languages in order to get started with vocabulary and grammar. After that, I still don't really have a plan.....

[vijayjohn]

That means, that I still will be watching and listening to material in the languages I have a B1-B2 level, like Arabic, Russian and German, but that moreover I will begin with these two new languages almost from scratch.

I would say will still and either in languages where I have a B1-B2 level or in languages I have a B1-B2 level in. I would also say but that I will also begin...

Hindi/Urdu is still in at an A2 level, so I will also try to learn something more.

I will focuse myself in on understanding (listening material and reading texts). For that I will need first of all to learn vocabulary.

I would say for that, I will first of all need to learn vocabulary.

But about vocabulary, I have a little problem. Maybe because most of the material I find is through Russian websites, a lot videos and texts are in Karelian and in Veps . And I don’t know exactly why, but I have the feeling that I will understand something better in these two (maybe they use more similar words to Russian? ). But it’s a mess, because some words are different and I can’t find them in a Finnish dictionary. And I don’t know exactly if these varieties are mutually intelligible with Finnish or not .

My understanding is that they are not mutually intelligible with Finnish.

And could it really be possible that there are actually more audio materials in on the internet in Karelian than in Finnish? Well, maybe it’s just that I don’t know where to look . So any suggestions will be welcomed .

I am not really learning it really from scratch, because I started maybe two years ago (that was before Russian swept all over).

Swept all over here sounds odd to me; I'm not quite sure what you mean by it. Just swept over (without all) might make more sense to me here.

But now I don’t remember anything, so I will have to start again. I also hope that maybe I could be able to can (manage to) find Finnish resources through Swedish internet sites.

Well, I suppose it will be an interesting year

I am already stressed. I supposed I should make some study plan or at least point out some resources or guidelines that I am going to follow. First of all, I think I will use Assimil for both languages in order to get started with vocabulary and grammar. After that, I still don't really have a plan.....

I would say make a study plan (of some sort) or at least...

[Antea]

Thanks

But about vocabulary, I have a little problem. Maybe because most of the material I find is through Russian websites, a lot videos and texts are in Karelian and in Veps . And I don’t know exactly why, but I have the feeling that I will understand something better in these two (maybe they use more similar words to Russian? ). But it’s a mess, because some words are different and I can’t find them in a Finnish dictionary. And I don’t know exactly if these varieties are mutually intelligible with Finnish or not .

My understanding is that they are not mutually intelligible with Finnish.
[quote]

Are you sure? I have been looking in the net, but I find contradictory answers

[dEhiN]

That means, that I still will be watching and listening to material in the languages I have a B1-B2 level, like Arabic, Russian and German, but that moreover I will begin with these two new languages almost from scratch.

I would say will still and either in languages where I have a B1-B2 level or in languages I have a B1-B2 level in. I would also say but that I will also begin...

I will focuse myself in on understanding (listening material and reading texts). For that I will need first of all to learn vocabulary.

I would say for that, I will first of all need to learn vocabulary.

Personally, I feel like Antea's initial phrasings, "I still will be" and "I will need first of all" are phrasings that work but are just of a higher register. In my experience, they are phrasings that were used regularly several decades ago, and perhaps as a result, are now seen mostly in formal writing. But casually, I would agree with you Vijay, we tend to say "I will still be" and "I will first of all need".

And could it really be possible that there are actually more audio materials in on the internet in Karelian than in Finnish? Well, maybe it’s just that I don’t know where to look . So any suggestions will be welcomed .

I am not really learning it really from scratch, because I started maybe two years ago (that was before Russian swept all over).

Swept all over here sounds odd to me; I'm not quite sure what you mean by it. Just swept over (without all) might make more sense to me here.

I think she probably meant something like "took over". For me, "swept over" or "swept all over" would be used in a different context: World Cup fever swept (all) over the nation. My understanding of what Antea wrote it that she was learning Finnish two years ago, then started learning Russian, and then Russian took up all of her focus and time. Hence, Russian took over.

[vijayjohn]

Are you sure? I have been looking in the net, but I find contradictory answers

I mean, these languages apparently form a dialect continuum, but Finnish isn't even the closest relative to Veps, and Veps is spoken further away from Finland than most other Finnic languages, so...

Karelian may be a somewhat more complicated case since the Southeastern dialects of Finland are also called 'Karelian dialects' in Finnish, but these are different from the Karelian language spoken in Karelia.

Personally, I feel like Antea's initial phrasings, "I still will be" and "I will need first of all" are phrasings that work but are just of a higher register. In my experience, they are phrasings that were used regularly several decades ago, and perhaps as a result, are now seen mostly in formal writing. But casually, I would agree with you Vijay, we tend to say "I will still be" and "I will first of all need".

Sure, but she isn't consistently writing in a higher register, so it sounds odd to me in context.

And could it really be possible that there are actually more audio materials in on the internet in Karelian than in Finnish? Well, maybe it’s just that I don’t know where to look . So any suggestions will be welcomed .

I am not really learning it really from scratch, because I started maybe two years ago (that was before Russian swept all over).

Swept all over here sounds odd to me; I'm not quite sure what you mean by it. Just swept over (without all) might make more sense to me here.

I think she probably meant something like "took over". For me, "swept over" or "swept all over" would be used in a different context: World Cup fever swept (all) over the nation. My understanding of what Antea wrote it that she was learning Finnish two years ago, then started learning Russian, and then Russian took up all of her focus and time. Hence, Russian took over.

I'm willing to give Antea some poetic license, I guess, and suppose that she might have meant something like Russian swept over her soul.

[Antea]

Are you sure? I have been looking in the net, but I find contradictory answers

I mean, these languages apparently form a dialect continuum, but Finnish isn't even the closest relative to Veps, and Veps is spoken further away from Finland than most other Finnic languages, so...

Karelian may be a somewhat more complicated case since the Southeastern dialects of Finland are also called 'Karelian dialects' in Finnish, but these are different from the Karelian language spoken in Karelia.

Personally, I feel like Antea's initial phrasings, "I still will be" and "I will need first of all" are phrasings that work but are just of a higher register. In my experience, they are phrasings that were used regularly several decades ago, and perhaps as a result, are now seen mostly in formal writing. But casually, I would agree with you Vijay, we tend to say "I will still be" and "I will first of all need".

Sure, but she isn't consistently writing in a higher register, so it sounds odd to me in context.

And could it really be possible that there are actually more audio materials in on the internet in Karelian than in Finnish? Well, maybe it’s just that I don’t know where to look . So any suggestions will be welcomed .

I am not really learning it really from scratch, because I started maybe two years ago (that was before Russian swept all over).

Swept all over here sounds odd to me; I'm not quite sure what you mean by it. Just swept over (without all) might make more sense to me here.

I think she probably meant something like "took over". For me, "swept over" or "swept all over" would be used in a different context: World Cup fever swept (all) over the nation. My understanding of what Antea wrote it that she was learning Finnish two years ago, then started learning Russian, and then Russian took up all of her focus and time. Hence, Russian took over.

I'm willing to give Antea some poetic license, I guess, and suppose that she might have meant something like Russian swept over her soul.

Yes, that was what I was trying to say Thanks

[dEhiN]

La poésie n'est pas mon fort !

[Antea]

I’m desperate, I’m just at the beginning and I don’t know how to handle with it. Is it usual? At the moment I just got a strong headache. I am learning new vocabulary, and for incomprehensible reasons, continue to listen to Karelian audio materials.

[vijayjohn]

I’m desperate, I’m just at the beginning, and I don’t know how to handle with it. Is it usual this normal? At the moment I just got a strong bad headache. I am learning new vocabulary, and, for incomprehensible reasons, continue to listen to Karelian audio materials.

I'd probably also say "I'm just starting" or "I'm just starting out."

I mean, I'm not sure whether I fully understand the problem or anything, but of course, it's normal to have trouble with a new language you don't know anything about when you first approach it.

[dEhiN]

I mean, I'm not sure whether I fully understand the problem or anything, but of course, it's normal to have trouble with a new language you don't know anything about when you first approach it.

It's true, but I think there are some languages that take longer to get used to, and could give you a harder time, than others. Perhaps this is the case with Antea? I find for myself, that when I start to feel overwhelmed, it's usually a sign that I need to slow down my learning, until I maybe get more used to things.

This could especially be the case if this is Antea's first agglutinative language.

[vijayjohn]

Yeah, I agree with that, too.

[Antea]

Well, yes, this is a challenging language. I think the reason for me finding it so difficult, is the vocabulary. Because I am used, in other languages, to always find « un point d’appui «  in cognates, for example, similar words in Romance languages, Germanic, Slavic, or even Semitic. But not in this case. And I find very difficult to remember the vocabulary (and I have still not reached the grammar part ).
Maybe that’s the reason why I like listening to Karelian, because there’s always some word of Russian background that I can understand.

[vijayjohn]

Well, yes, this is a challenging language. I think the reason for me finding it so difficult, is the vocabulary. Bbecause I am used, in other languages, I am used to always finding « un point d’appui «  in cognates, for example, similar words in Romance languages, Germanic, Slavic, or even Semitic. But not in this case. And I find it very difficult to remember the vocabulary (and I have still not reached the grammar part ).
Maybe that’s the reason why I like listening to Karelian, because there’s always some word of Russian background origin that I can understand.

"Un point d'appui" in English would be "a foothold," but I think I'd say, "...in other languages, I'm used to finding help from cognates..."

I think I used to have that problem with Finnish, too, so I stopped it pretty quickly when I attempted it back when I was fourteen years old or something. Honestly, I think it just takes getting used to (i.e. you just have to get used to it (eventually)). I think I used to have that problem even with Malayalam. It has tons of Sanskrit loanwords, but, well, that doesn't help much if I don't know any Sanskrit and those loanwords often don't have cognates in other Indo-European languages!

[dEhiN]

Yeah I found the same with Tamil. I don't know any Sanskrit nor an Indo-Aryan language, so any words in Tamil from Sanskrit are just as foreign to me as Dravidian-based words. As Vijay said, it's just something you have to get used to. Even though it might be easier or more fun to listen to Karelian, maybe it'll help you get used to Finnish if you stop listening to Karelian? This'll give your brain time to get used to Finnish.

[aaakknu]

How is your Finnish learning going?

[Antea]

How is your Finnish learning going?

It’s really very difficult. For the moment I am just trying to understand the words, learning some vocabulary, that usually I don’t remember because it’s a completely different and new thing for me. I haven’t still studied the grammar, although I have taken a quick look at it, just to figure out the construction of sentences.

Sometimes I use Pinterest to look at words with images, because it’s easier for me to remember that way. Apart from that I am still not following any book. I am just trying not being discouraged (because I tend to go back to the languages in which I have a higher level), and I suppose that at some point I would take again Assimil “Le finnois sans peine” .

Have you also studied Finnish? If you have any suggestion will be welcome

[linguoboy]

Have you also studied Finnish? If you have any suggestion will be welcome

There are some surprising cognates between Finnish and other Germanic languages. Most aren't really recognisable because they phonology of the languages is so different and some of them are quite old. For example, I had trouble remembering kello "clock, watch" until I found out that it was from Proto-Germanic *skellō, which is also the source of German Schelle "small bell". (Historically, the most common way for Finnish to deal with impermissible consonant clusters was just to drop the first element. See also ranta "shore, beach", German Strand "beach".) And you wouldn't necessarily guess that kansa "people, nation" was related to Hansa, the name of a mediaeval German merchants' association, but once you know that, it makes the Finnish word easier to remember (assuming you already know the German one, of course).

[Antea]

Have you also studied Finnish? If you have any suggestion will be welcome

There are some surprising cognates between Finnish and other Germanic languages. Most aren't really recognisable because they phonology of the languages is so different and some of them are quite old. For example, I had trouble remembering kello "clock, watch" until I found out that it was from Proto-Germanic *skellō, which is also the source of German Schelle "small bell". (Historically, the most common way for Finnish to deal with impermissible consonant clusters was just to drop the first element. See also ranta "shore, beach", German Strand "beach".) And you wouldn't necessarily guess that kansa "people, nation" was related to Hansa, the name of a mediaeval German merchants' association, but once you know that, it makes the Finnish word easier to remember (assuming you already know the German one, of course).

Thanks ! That is very interesting and a very good idea . I will try to find more cognates with German. I will search them in internet.

[vijayjohn]

I dunno about Finnish, but I used to find that just learning about cognates within the Uralic family seemed to help me with Hungarian, I guess just because I appreciated learning more about the Uralic languages more generally in the process.