TAC 2018 - הענט

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הענט

Re: TAC 2018 - HENT

Postby הענט » 2018-02-11, 16:10

(fr) I'm working on my pronunciation and trying to figure out how the liaison works. For example :

Il ya trop de gens ici. (Why aren't gens and ici conjoined?)

(sv) I forgot so much. Why is the pronunciation so weird at times? Is it like the stress in Russian? For example in moloko the stress is on the ultimate syllable so that's the part you pronounce like o.

Swedish jag is sometimes pronounced jó(g) and sometimes ja. Anyway it's fun. :)

הענט

Re: TAC 2018 - HENT

Postby הענט » 2018-02-12, 19:22

Je suis très fatigué...

I did very little for my French today. I think weekly reports might be a better idea. :)

הענט

Re: TAC 2018 - HENT

Postby הענט » 2018-02-14, 16:19

(fr) I downloaded some French radio stations and I listened to Europe 1 for a while. I got a gist of what was going on. A Christian couple was being interviewed and one of them had some kind of degenerative disease.
I think my passive skills are nearing the A2 level but I still can't write a paragraph without way too many mistakes.

(lt) I downloaded internetinis lietuvos radijas and understood very little. Ar tu..., sveiki, labas, okupacijos. :) I'm quite excited to try a different IE family. :)

הענט

Re: TAC 2018 - HENT - Français, Svenska

Postby הענט » 2018-02-16, 10:15

(cs) N
(en-us) C1+
(es) B1
(de) A2
(ru) A2
(fr) A1
(sv) A1

MONTHLY REPORT - FEB 16

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Re: TAC 2018 - HENT

Postby Salajane » 2018-02-16, 11:51

What about other languages that were in your list? Have you dropped them?
Здайся на Господа у твоїх справах, і задуми твої здійсняться. (Приповідки 16, 3)
TAC 2018
Sign up for the Broken Translation Game 2018 and Oral Broken Translation Game 2 and Conlang Broken Translation Game 3 and FUBAR Game 2018

הענט

Re: TAC 2018 - HENT

Postby הענט » 2018-02-16, 12:57

Yes I did. It's too much work. I personally think I would get nowhere if I dedicated my daily portion of free time to 10 different languages. French is my main goal now, but because it's the TAC I'm going to include Swedish and practicing of the rusty ones.

I hope this tactic will work out.

הענט

Re: TAC 2018 - HENT

Postby הענט » 2018-02-19, 19:15

Il doit ne pas avoir de voiture. (He must not have a car.)

An interesting syntactical structure.

J'ai ecouté to the French radio again and I could make out a few things. It was about the struggle for legalization of the birth control pill in France. I overheard the name of the former French president Mitterrand. But I also realized my struggle with the numerals. There was this Citroen commercial and the price and phone number were conveyed at such a fast pace my mind just drew a blank.

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Re: TAC 2018 - HENT

Postby linguoboy » 2018-02-19, 19:22

Hent wrote:(fr) I'm working on my pronunciation and trying to figure out how the liaison works.

Are you coming to grips with that? One important thing to keep in mind is that liaison varies according to the level of formality, being most common in very formal contexts and much more sparingly applied colloquially.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

הענט

Re: TAC 2018 - HENT

Postby הענט » 2018-02-19, 19:36

linguoboy wrote:
Hent wrote:(fr) I'm working on my pronunciation and trying to figure out how the liaison works.

Are you coming to grips with that? One important thing to keep in mind is that liaison varies according to the level of formality, being most common in very formal contexts and much more sparingly applied colloquially.


Got it. So how do I pronounce les héros? The same as les zéros?

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Re: TAC 2018 - HENT

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-02-19, 19:57

My understanding is no, because héros has an aspirated h (as it's called in the context of French).

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Re: TAC 2018 - HENT

Postby Car » 2018-02-19, 21:32

Correct. You might want to look for a dictionary that mentions that. E.g. in this case, even the English Wiktionary is enough:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/h%C3%A9ros

As Vijay pointed out, the key word here is aspiration.
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Re: TAC 2018 - HENT

Postby linguoboy » 2018-02-19, 21:40

Car wrote:Correct. You might want to look for a dictionary that mentions that.

IME, every dictionary of French does, although it's not always obvious.

For instance, the headword in the Dictionnaire Larousse is *héros. The asterisk indicates that the initial h is "aspiré".

There's also a comprehensive list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirated_h.

(As a side note, there are varieties in which h aspiré is actually pronounced [h], e.g. Louisiana French.)
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Re: TAC 2018 - HENT

Postby Car » 2018-02-20, 12:40

Maybe that's true for print dictionaries, but not for every online dictionary. E.g. dict.cc does not, but they have recordings and further links.

I didn't know there were varieties where it's actually pronounced. Is that some dated pronunciation that was kept, English influence or something else entirely?
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: TAC 2018 - HENT

Postby linguoboy » 2018-02-20, 14:09

Car wrote:I didn't know there were varieties where it's actually pronounced. Is that some dated pronunciation that was kept, English influence or something else entirely?

I'm not sure, to be honest. It has to be more than a retention since it exists for words which historically never had [h] (e.g. haut, from Latin altus--unless this has somehow been influenced by Old Frankish hōh). I'm sure the existence of /h/ in English has helped to retain it in Louisiana French, but I can see how it could have developed naturally as a means of filling a hiatus.

A friend just gifted me a book on historical French phonology. Guess I'll take a peak and see what it says.
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Re: TAC 2018 - HENT

Postby Car » 2018-02-20, 16:24

linguoboy wrote:
Car wrote:I didn't know there were varieties where it's actually pronounced. Is that some dated pronunciation that was kept, English influence or something else entirely?

I'm not sure, to be honest. It has to be more than a retention since it exists for words which historically never had [h] (e.g. haut, from Latin altus--unless this has somehow been influenced by Old Frankish hōh). I'm sure the existence of /h/ in English has helped to retain it in Louisiana French, but I can see how it could have developed naturally as a means of filling a hiatus.

A friend just gifted me a book on historical French phonology. Guess I'll take a peak and see what it says.

I thought it was, but I'm honestly struggling to understand this part:
du lat. class. altus « haut, élevé » au propre et au fig.; « profond, reculé »; croisé en domaine d'oïl avec l'a. b. frq. *hauh, *hôh en face des autres représentants romans sans h- (a. prov. alt, aut, xiie-xves. ds Rayn.; ital. alto; esp. port. alto; cat. alt, v. FEW t. 24, p. 375b). Il est difficile de se fonder sur quelques formes sans aspiration attestées du xeau xives. (ds Gdf. Compl. et Littré) dans des textes provençalisés (Passion), italianisés (Roland de Châteauroux) ou anglo-norm. (Quatre Livres des Rois) pour mettre en doute l'ancienneté de ce croisement. On refusera donc l'hyp. proposée par A. Greive (ds Etymologische untersuchungen zum französischen h aspiré, Heidelberg, 1970) et acceptée par le FEW, loc. cit., d'une aspiration introduite secondairement en a. fr. pour assurer la non-élision de l'art. devant aut et par là même isoler le monosyllabe à l'intérieur de la chaîne parlée. II et III, emplois adv. de I. IV, emploi subst. de I. Fréq. abs. littér. : 32 112; Fréq. rel. littér. : xixes. : a) 42 229, b) 52 894; xxes. : a) 50 967, b) 41 539. Bbg. Foulet (L.). L'Effacement des adv. de lieu. Romania. 1946, t. 69, pp. 65-77. - Quem. DDL t. 16.


Source

Honestly, some monolingual dictionaries always make me feel as if I don't understand the language at all.

I'd love to hear about that.
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: TAC 2018 - HENT

Postby linguoboy » 2018-02-20, 16:57

"xeau xives"?

They seem to be saying that there are early sources which show a lack of aspiration, but that this could be the result of foreign influence. But then they go on to reject the idea of hybridisation anyway.

Unfortunately, Pierret's book (Phonétique historique du français) doesn't talk about haut specifically. On the matter of the "[h] germanique", he has this to say: "Complètement disaparu au XVIe s. à Paris, il continue à laisser des traces dans la prononciation du français contemporain, empêchant la liaison (les / haches) et l'elision (la hache). Il subsiste dans certaines regions, notamment dans l'est et le sud de la Wallonie."

The Acadians mostly arrived during the 17th century and mostly originated in west-central France (e.g. Poitou, Saintonge), where it's quite likely [h] was still present at the time. From what I can gather, it doesn't seem to have survived in Canada, but then I don't have the best sources at my disposal. It is interesting to note, however, that Québecois French does sometimes insert [g] as a way to break hiatus, e.g. [õũ̯givɔ] on y va. So the idea of [h] being reinserted later doesn't completely lack foundation.
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Re: TAC 2018 - HENT

Postby Car » 2018-02-20, 17:12

The e should be superscript, that wasn't copied properly from the source. I.e. Xième au XIVème siècle.

Thanks for looking that up.
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Re: TAC 2018 - HENT

Postby Prantsis » 2018-02-20, 19:44

linguoboy wrote:They seem to be saying that there are early sources which show a lack of aspiration, but that this could be the result of foreign influence. But then they go on to reject the idea of hybridisation anyway.

They say it's a hybridisation (the first sentence). Then they add that the existence of a few italianized, provençalized and Anglo-Norman texts (mentioned in Gdf. Compl. et Littré) which show a lack of aspiration is not reason enough to reject the idea of an early hybridisation, and that therefore they reject the idea (supported by A. Greive) of a later introduction of aspiration aimed to ensure the non-elision of articles.

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Re: TAC 2017 Dr. House - Español

Postby Ser » 2018-02-21, 5:54

Saim wrote:
Can I say : Apenas había salido, el vecino le llamó. (Apenas hubo salido, el vecino le llamó.)

Yes, although I would probably exepct a cuando in there, at least in the spoken language.

I agree: Apenas había salido cuando el vecino le llamó.

Saim wrote:You can also use en cuanto + simple preterite or nada más + infinitive.

What do you mean by "nada más + infinitive"?

Hay que sacarse los zapatos antes de entrar a la mezquita.

I am unfamiliar with this use of sacarse (quitarse is much more common), but the Collins dictionary says some Latin Americans do use sacarse this way...

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Re: TAC 2017 Dr. House - Español

Postby Saim » 2018-02-21, 10:43

Ser wrote:
Saim wrote:You can also use en cuanto + simple preterite or nada más + infinitive.

What do you mean by "nada más + infinitive"?


http://dle.rae.es/?id=QCFVQse

2. loc. conjunt. Inmediatamente a continuación de. U. frec. seguido de infinitivo. Nada más verme, se echó a reír.

Ser wrote:I am unfamiliar with this use of sacarse (quitarse is much more common), but the Collins dictionary says some Latin Americans do use sacarse this way...


Yes this may be me unconsciously translating treure (cal treure's les sabates abans d'entrar a la mesquita):

https://www.diccionaris.cat/?diccionari ... imprimir=N


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