2017 blog - księżyc

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Re: 2017 blog - księżyc

Postby linguoboy » 2017-12-08, 11:01

vijayjohn wrote:
kevin wrote:chomh maith

Encountering this expression makes me wonder how widespread the expression "as well" is and how it spread. English, Irish, and Ibero-Romance (e.g. Spanish también) all seem to have it, but who (if anyone) else? Did Irish calque it off of English or something?

Welsh has yn ogystal, an adverbial form of gogystal (< go- "near[ly]" + cystal "as well"). It's attested as far back as the mid-14th century (GPC), whereas the corresponding English usage dates to the late 15th (OED). The earlier English meaning (from the 13th century) was "not only...but also", e.g. "under hwit oðer blac & ase wel under grei ase under grene" (1225).
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Re: 2017 blog - księżyc

Postby dEhiN » 2017-12-08, 16:03

linguoboy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
kevin wrote:chomh maith

Encountering this expression makes me wonder how widespread the expression "as well" is and how it spread. English, Irish, and Ibero-Romance (e.g. Spanish también) all seem to have it, but who (if anyone) else? Did Irish calque it off of English or something?

Welsh has yn ogystal, an adverbial form of gogystal (< go- "near[ly]" + cystal "as well"). It's attested as far back as the mid-14th century (GPC), whereas the corresponding English usage dates to the late 15th (OED). The earlier English meaning (from the 13th century) was "not only...but also", e.g. "under hwit oðer blac & ase wel under grei ase under grene" (1225).

So I guess the older usage in English was "as well ... as ...", perhaps akin to ni...ni... in French? Looking outside Germanic and Celtic, is this expression or a similar one that expresses the same conjunctive concept, really not common? The way Vijay wrote who (if anyone) else makes me think it's a limited expression, but how is it really any different from other coordinating conjunctions, which I imagine is something many languages have?
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Re: 2017 blog - księżyc

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-12-08, 18:27

I can't think of any other languages that have it. *shrug* I didn't even really know about genauso gut in German. I can't recall a specific time I've seen it.

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Re: 2017 blog - księżyc

Postby kevin » 2017-12-08, 18:49

I think "genauso gut" only really works in contexts like "you could as well do X".

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Re: 2017 blog - księżyc

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-12-08, 19:59

Donkey shone!

Oh, and to clarify for dEhiN: I'm not saying similar constructions don't exist in other languages; I'm saying I'm wondering about the distribution of this exact phrasing. Tan, chomh, etc. all literally mean 'as', and bien, maith, etc. all literally mean 'well' or 'good'.

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Re: 2017 blog - księżyc

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-08, 20:43

I usually go for the more vulgar "donkey shit" myself. :P

And wow, you guys are having fun in my thread, eh?

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Re: 2017 blog - księżyc

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-12-08, 20:44

księżycowy wrote:I usually go for the more vulgar "donkey shit" myself. :P

:hmm:
And wow, you guys are having fun in my thread, eh?

Lol, it just started with me wondering about chomh maith. :silly:

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Re: 2017 blog - księżyc

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-08, 20:48

vijayjohn wrote::hmm:

何?

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Re: 2017 blog - księżyc

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-12-08, 20:53

Oh, I guess I've just never heard of "donkey shit" for danke schön. :P

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Re: 2017 blog - księżyc

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-08, 21:06

It may not be the best match sound wise (or even meaning wise), but it was just something I started saying. I think at least part of the reason why I started saying it was out of a light disdain for that side of the family. :P

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Re: 2017 blog - księżyc

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-12-08, 21:07

Lol

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Re: 2017 blog - księżyc

Postby linguoboy » 2017-12-08, 21:47

księżycowy wrote:I usually go for the more vulgar "donkey shit" myself.

My and my ex say "donkey fieldmice".
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Re: 2017 blog - księżyc

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-12-09, 1:48

linguoboy wrote:
księżycowy wrote:I usually go for the more vulgar "donkey shit" myself.

My and my ex say "donkey fieldmice".

Danke vielmals? Y'all must be more generous with your thanks. :P

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Re: 2017 blog - księżyc

Postby dEhiN » 2017-12-09, 1:54

vijayjohn wrote:Oh, and to clarify for dEhiN: I'm not saying similar constructions don't exist in other languages; I'm saying I'm wondering about the distribution of this exact phrasing. Tan, chomh, etc. all literally mean 'as', and bien, maith, etc. all literally mean 'well' or 'good'.

I was going to ask how, in Spanish and Portuguese, you have a case of this construction, but then I realized that Spanish también probably came from tan + bien? Does French have a similar construction? I can't think of one.
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Re: 2017 blog - księżyc

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-09, 1:59

Ew. Romance languages....

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Re: 2017 blog - księżyc

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-12-09, 2:28

dEhiN wrote:I was going to ask how, in Spanish and Portuguese, you have a case of this construction, but then I realized that Spanish también probably came from tan + bien? Does French have a similar construction? I can't think of one.

That's exactly my point. Ibero-Romance in general has that, but I can't think of any other Romance languages that do.

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Re: 2017 blog - księżyc

Postby dEhiN » 2017-12-09, 2:52

vijayjohn wrote:That's exactly my point. Ibero-Romance in general has that, but I can't think of any other Romance languages that do.

Oh right, you had mentioned Ibero-Romance originally! I somehow only saw the Romance part and extrapolated. :D

księżycowy wrote:Ew. Romance languages....

C'mon, let the Latinate language romance you into their beauty...;) :P
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Re: 2017 blog - księżyc

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-09, 2:56

:eww: *hurl*

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Re: 2017 blog - księżyc

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-12-09, 7:50

Maybe księżycowy's the one who made Osias and Serafín think people think their languages are boring. :P (He didn't say disgusting because he didn't want to be that mean).

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Re: 2017 blog - księżyc

Postby księżycowy » 2017-12-09, 9:03

Maybe, but if so I doubt it was direct or intentional. I mean, to be honest I still entertain the idea of learning French and Italian from time to time, but beyond that I don't usually pay much attention to Romance languages.

And the only reason I want to learn French is basically stubbornness. Italian because my one uncle is learning Italian and he has some Italian speaking relatives. But none of that really motivates me all that much. Idk, there are definitely languages I care less about than others.

Either that or I'm being stubborn with my priorities. Probably a bit of both. :P

I know this much, I wouldn't touch Spanish with a ten foot pole. No offence to any Spanish speakers intended.


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