TAC eskandar (Arabic, Hebrew, Urdu)

[eskandar]

Haha, I wasn't trying to impress anyone besides myself! I'm kind of bummed no one has stepped up to help fill in the blanks with the French though. I thought it was supposed to be a popular language...although on Unilang, maybe if it had been in Catalan I would have been able to get help with it.

I did a literary translation of an Ottoman couplet by Sultan Mehmet II ('Avni):

Weakness of heart, separation’s burn; love’s cruelty, jeering foes:
God made me that I may suffer many different kinds of pain
They’ve all joined hands to burn and destroy me:
My teary eyes, my fiery sighs, and my heart’s flame

Cevr-i dilber ta'n-ı düşmen sûz-ı fürkat za'f-ı dil
Türlü türlü derd içün yaratmış Allâhım beni
Yakmağa vü yıkmağa hep cümle el bir ettiler
Sûz-i sîne eşk-i dîde âteş-i âhum beni

[vijayjohn]

I'm kind of bummed no one has stepped up to help fill in the blanks with the French though.

Sorry, I meant to do this...but never really get around to actually doing it. Maybe I'll try tonight or tomorrow night or something.

[eskandar]

Sorry, I meant to do this...but never really get around to actually doing it. Maybe I'll try tonight or tomorrow night or something.

Cheers bhai, no need to be sorry. Would be appreciated if you do get around to it - prends ton temps!

[vijayjohn]

Okay, so I tried!

Regarding the phenomenon of Izala, Izala is an Islamic reform movement which is essentially anti-Sufi and anti-traditionalist that would like to reform Islam and limit the practice of Islam and its theology to the Qur'an and the tradition of the prophet Muhammad ... [???] ... emerged? ... creates many problems, it hugely creates conflicts ... conflicts ... ? of mosques,

After "Muhammad," what I hear is this:

eh bien, comme cet agent réligieux là a émergé, eh bien, ça a créé beaucoup de problèmes. Euh, ça a créé, euh, énormément de, de, de conflits, dans - des ans de conflits sont, euh, sont apparus, autour des mosquées,
well, as that religious agent emerged, well, it created many problems. Uh, it created, uh, a lot of, of, of conflicts, in - years of conflicts, uh, appeared, around the mosques,

control of mosques, control of the media, ... what makes the ... and with all this competition, ... and which have, finally, informed the very meaning of Islam ... the Nigerien context ... this has been a local dynamic,

the control of the mosques, the control of the media. Who had the rights of the press? What was needed? Press. So there was all this competition - that's the truth - which appeared there and which, ultimately, informed the very meaning of Islam, I'd say, in the Nigerien context. So that was a local dynamic,

but it must be said that this dynamic has been greatly influenced from the outside. Especially the major influences,

Essentially, two major influences,

I'd say, are the influence of northern Nigeria. When we consider...when we look a little at the genealogy of the Izala movement in Niger, and that genealogy is very related to the Izala of Nigeria. For example, the texts of the Izala association [?] of Niger are practically the same as the Izala association of northern Nigeria. That was the primary influence, that of northern Nigeria. Well, that doesn't date [?] to the phenomenon Izala

doesn't date from the Izala phenomenon

... Islam in Niger has been very frequently ... the actors of Nigerien Islam ... often ... association with the actors [agents?] of Nigerien Islam ... [???] not exclusive to Izala ...

Islam in Niger has very, very often been in a relationship with the actors [adherents] of Nigerien Islam, has often been in a relationship with the actors of Nigerien Islam, so that's really not exclusive to Izala.

we also find Sufi organizations,

we also find it with Sufi organizations,

notably the Tijaniyyah [a large Sufi order].

... external influences ... called the graduates of Medina[?]... as opposed to the graduates of Cairo. The Cairo graduates are .... and formed by ... the al-Azhar tradition. The graduates of Medina were ... and formed by the tradition of the Islamic University of Medina ....... superior Islamic ... in that region, in particular in Saudi Arabia ... that, when they return to Niger, evidently they wanted to create a space, an expression... They had to capitalize....

[The] second external influence is what I call the "Graduates of Medina," as opposed to the "Graduates of Cairo." The Graduates of Cairo are those who were formed by the arms of the al-Azhar tradition. The Graduates of Medina are those who were formed in the tradition of the Islamic University of Medina, who go to the higher-level Islamic educational instutitions in...in that region, in particular, in Saudi Arabia. So when those people return to Niger, they obviously wanted to create a space for themselves, expression...They had to capitalize on this, uh...

They had to, let's say, profit from the symbolic capital they had acquired, symbolic and cultural [capital] that they had, in fact, acquired. Above all [?] the Nigerien system is not always very open to the Medina graduates. They were in a Francophone context, they were in a context where the state had been organized ... which did not make sufficient room .... profile ... of Nigeriens.

Especially since the Nigerien system has not always been very open to these Graduates of Medina. We're in a Francophone context; we're in a context where the state has been organized around ideals, around principles, which didn't make enough room, I would say, for this profile of Nigeriens.

(On is frequently used in colloquial French these days to mean 'we', if you didn't already know ).

[eskandar]

Okay, so I tried!

Mille mercis! This really helped, and now for the most part reading your additions and corrections has helped me hear the original French more clearly, too.

(On is frequently used in colloquial French these days to mean 'we', if you didn't already know ).

That I knew (you can see it in parts of my translation above). I dunno if I just wasn't hearing it correctly at the end or what!

[vijayjohn]

Okay, so I tried!

Mille mercis! This really helped, and now for the most part reading your additions and corrections has helped me hear the original French more clearly, too.

De rien! I'm glad it helped! This kind of reminds me of the time I took a short movie in European Portuguese with English subtitles and tried to write out what they were saying in Portuguese. It was so hard because, as Luís told me when he corrected my transcript, it has all these "nasty Portuguese unstressed vowels." I did terribly.

(On is frequently used in colloquial French these days to mean 'we', if you didn't already know ).

That I knew (you can see it in parts of my translation above). I dunno if I just wasn't hearing it correctly at the end or what!

Oh, yeah, so you did! Sorry!

[eskandar]

No worries! Thanks again!

[voron]

Cevr-i dilber ta'n-ı düşmen sûz-ı fürkat za'f-ı dil
Türlü türlü derd içün yaratmış Allâhım beni
Yakmağa vü yıkmağa hep cümle el bir ettiler
Sûz-i sîne eşk-i dîde âteş-i âhum beni

Lines 2 and 3 are nearly normal modern Turkish, but 1 and 4 are . I realize that they are a collection of Persian ezafe (with Arabic borrowings), so to me Kurdish is more helpful in understanding them than Turkish.

[voron]

Btw Eskandar do you listen to Turkish nasheeds? This is one of my favourites (in Turkish they are called ilahi):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJDhMuxoWWQ

The lyrics are so good: http://www.cengiz-numanoglu.com/SecdedenGayri.htm

And I bet you know Sami Yusuf. He has this great song in English, Turkish, Urdu and Arabic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ou1IKR24nI

[eskandar]

I haven't really, but thanks for sharing this one, it's great! And from your description I knew which Sami Yusuf song it was going to be before I even clicked it I know that one entirely by heart!

What I have listened to more of is Turkish zikir which are in Arabic but pronounced with heavy Turkish accents:

https://youtu.be/C0UEj6jD09c

https://youtu.be/RRc3G06-Fs0

[vijayjohn]

Lines 2 and 3 are nearly normal modern Turkish, but 1 and 4 are . I realize that they are a collection of Persian ezafe (with Arabic borrowings), so to me Kurdish is more helpful in understanding them than Turkish.

Now you know why I at least used to think Hindi/Urdu was the weirdest language in the Indian Subcontinent: because of the unusually high number of Persian loanwords.

[eskandar]

To distract myself from doing real work I started reading مسافر الكنبة في إيران (A Couchsurfer in Iran), the Iran travel diary of an Egyptian traveler, Amr Badawy. It's nearly 500 pages but the prose is incredibly simple and clear so I think I can slowly chip away at it without much difficulty. So far I'm looking up all the words I don't know, even when I can guess their meaning from context, but I'll probably get tired of that at some point.

New vocab

عشوائي - random, without a plan
نبع - to well up, to flow, to rise; to emanate [from]
أنجز - to carry out, execute, implement; to finish
تعدی - to exceed, go beyond
معلم pl. معالم - place, mark, landmark
واضح المعالم - clear-cut
تفادى - to avoid
نَزْل pl. نُزُل - housing, living quarters
بثّ - to spread, scatter; disseminate
إدراج - insertion, entry
قائمة - list
انطباع مسبق - preconceived impression
خضع لـ - to be subject to
تعرض - exposure
مضايقات - harassment

[voron]

To distract myself from doing real work I started reading مسافر الكنبة في إيران (A Couchsurfer in Iran)

I wish I could read something like this and not even count it as real work...

Eskandar it seems like you improved very quickly in Arabic. I remember you starting doing Thackston's book just 3 years ago, and now you're proficient in both MSA and a dialect. I bet you had already had vast passive knowledge of vocabulary, but still, this is an amazing progress. I envy.

[vijayjohn]

You know, voron, I actually didn't realize you'd started studying Arabic at least three years ago! I thought it was something you'd just started recently for some reason. I think you've been doing better at it than me lately, at least. I'm still kind of hung up on the first three chapters of Syrian Colloquial Arabic because even though I can understand the dialogs pretty well, I keep thinking, "Ooh, I should go through their notes after the dialogs so I can make sure I know how to count (even though I already pretty much know how to do this in MSA) and remember the names of all these different types of buildings (which I never do) and stuff" because I went through the first three dialogs without reading like any of the grammar notes in between.

And of course, I'm also trying to juggle waaay too many languages. And even then I'm not satisfied with the number of languages, either.

[voron]

You know, voron

Vijay, you're the unquestionable Master, so high above others that you don't even need praise, so let us mortals exchange words of encouragement, because we need them.

I actually didn't realize you'd started studying Arabic at least three years ago!

I started MSA 5 years ago. And I am still around A2. Yeah I suck.

I started the dialects only this year though, and my Syrian is already better than my MSA. I can have non-trivial conversations in it. One Lebanese guy I talked to asked me if I sold shawarma in Damascus (I took it as a compliment to my accent).

[vijayjohn]

You know, voron

Vijay, you're the unquestionable Master, so high above others that you don't even need praise, so let us mortals exchange words of encouragement, because we need them.

Oh, did I make it sound like it was wrong of you to do that? I didn't mean to. I wasn't trying to imply anything with those words; it was just intended as a conversation filler. Sorry!

I started MSA 5 years ago. And I am still around A2. Yeah I suck.

Don't be so hard on yourself! I started MSA when I was like thirteen? I wasn't very good about sticking with it, though. Well, actually, I wasn't very good about studying it, either...I consciously stopped studying it for a long time, especially given US foreign policy. I used to be worried the government would try to draft me into the army or something if they knew I knew any Arabic. EDIT: Or Persian or Pashto.

I started the dialects only this year though, and my Syrian is already better than my MSA. I can have non-trivial conversations in it. One Lebanese guy I talked to asked me if I sold shawarma in Damascus (I took it as a compliment to my accent).

Dang, voron!!! Good job! I wish I could say my Syrian Arabic was anywhere close to that level.

[voron]

Oh, did I make it sound like it was wrong of you to do that? I didn't mean to. I wasn't trying to imply anything with those words; it was just intended as a conversation filler. Sorry!

No, no, no! I genuinely tried to compliment you and say I admire your knowledge and competence. You Russian and all other languages I speak are pretty good, it's amazing you know so many language on this level.

[vijayjohn]

Oh, did I make it sound like it was wrong of you to do that? I didn't mean to. I wasn't trying to imply anything with those words; it was just intended as a conversation filler. Sorry!

No, no, no! I genuinely tried to compliment you and say I admire your knowledge and competence. You Russian and all other languages I speak are pretty good, it's amazing you know so many language on this level.

Oh, okay, thanks!! I thought you were trying to tell me I did something wrong.

[eskandar]

I wish I could read something like this and not even count it as real work...

I just mean I'm doing this instead of "real work" (things I should be doing for my job rather than for fun), not that there's no difficulty in it!

Eskandar it seems like you improved very quickly in Arabic. I remember you starting doing Thackston's book just 3 years ago, and now you're proficient in both MSA and a dialect. I bet you had already had vast passive knowledge of vocabulary, but still, this is an amazing progress. I envy.

Thanks voron, but I already had a good amount of experience with Arabic under my belt already by the time I started Thackston! I got interested in Arabic around 2007 and from then until 2012 I never really tried to learn Arabic, aside from going through most of the Michel Thomas lessons for Egyptian, but I listened to a lot of Arabic music and would ask Arab friends how to say basic things (hi, how are you, what's up, etc.) During that time I more or less mastered pronunciation and got a feel for the language. In 2012 (I think) I took two semesters of MSA at university. The course there moved very slowly, so with what I had taught myself I was able to skip the first four quarters (1A, 1B, 1C, and 2A) and go into 2B. I took 2B and 2C and got a more solid foundation in the grammar, but unfortunately that was as high as my university offered, so I was back to casually studying on my own. In 2014 I moved to a mostly Tunisian neighborhood in Paris and from 2014-15 I probably spoke Arabic more often than French. During that time I started going through Thackston to review and improve my Arabic, though I didn't actually stick with it all that long. (I also visited Tunisia twice and Morocco once in that year). In the summer of 2015 I moved to Cairo and spent ~3 months studying MSA with a tutor (who was actually totally incompetent and almost useless) and picking up some Egyptian through immersion. Since then I've mostly let my Arabic studies go by the wayside except for daily Anki review and the occasional dabbling you can see here where I'll try to translate a song or something. So that's the story of my Arabic studies. I really wish I could do an intensive course or spend a year studying it, I know I could make a lot of progress, but it's harder to find opportunities like that now that I'm no longer a student.

[vijayjohn]

Do you think knowing Persian has helped you learn Arabic?