TAC 2017 - vijayjohn

[księżycowy]

That reminds me, what's your deal with Papuan languages?

I'm sure you've said this before, but either I wasn't paying attention or I forgot.

[vijayjohn]

You mean why am I learning them? Because they're so diverse, and they're a huge number of languages I have no clue about.

[księżycowy]

Nerd.

[vijayjohn]

[vijayjohn]

I keep forgetting that I actually have access to resources for a LOT of languages, including some (most??) of the ones I've been learning. I really should take advantage of that shit!

Anyway, I've been spending most of the day just looking at resources for all kinds of languages, as if I was in an online bookstore where everything was mine, all mine, for free! (Except of course the parts that Google Books is hiding from me). I kind of forgot about the resource księżycowy had pointed out to me on the thread I started for Australian Kriol; said resource has some useful documents for learning Iwaidja as well as Australian Kriol and, of course, Arrernte and Warlpiri. Thanks, księżycowy!

[księżycowy]

Huh? What did I do?

[vijayjohn]

This! It helps me with Iwaidja, too.

(I keep forgetting the name of that language. I try to remember it as sounding like Elmer Fudd saying "Elijah" or something ).

[księżycowy]

So, what's on the docket today, Vijay?
You know, aside from disappointing me.

[vijayjohn]

Well, first, I un-disappoint you by posting in both word association games, then I wait for you to post in the Australian one once you've replied to me in the NAIL one!

[księżycowy]

Which disappoints me. See!

[vijayjohn]

Well, now I've un-disappointed you again.

I also have been puzzling over Dinka and trying to review stuff in Krio today.

[księżycowy]

So, I'm curious, how do you go about learning some of these languages that do not have textbooks?

Walk me through your process.

[dEhiN]

Vijay for all your talk about there being so many languages you don't know, I don't see you doing any Caucasian languages. Or indigenous ones from places other than where white people have colonized (i.e., the Americas and Australia). You're pidgeon*-holing yourself! Learn Veddah!

*Why did my phone not have pidgeon saved in its built-in dictionary??!!

[vijayjohn]

Because they're spelled <pigeon> and <pigeonhole>. There's no D in pigeon! That's true of actual pigeons, too. The male pigeon's dick is outside its body, not inside, and female (and perhaps very young male) pigeons don't have a dick!

So, I'm curious, how do you go about learning some of these languages that do not have textbooks?

Walk me through your process.

Well, first, I get some background information about the language (I do this with any language I'm not already familiar with), i.e. where is it spoken, roughly how many speakers does it have, how is it related to other languages, etc. Then I just search the hell out of Google to see what I can find for the language and don't stop until I find some text that has at least a few phrases in the language. Trying to learn that will keep me occupied for a while (how long depends on how much data it has!), and then I keep trying to find more data by searching Google again. I really don't care what form the text takes. It could be a phrasebook (okay, probably not), a story, a dialog (yes, one dialog!), a grammar, a research paper, flashcards, I don't give a shit. Data is data! Now, how reliable the data is is another story, but then I'm not the one who can really determine that, am I? All I can do is try to see whether a) there are multiple sources of data I can consult and b) they agree.

Once I've found my data, I start learning it! I open a new thread in the (hopefully) appropriate subforum if there isn't one already, and I try to explain what I'm doing, how I'm using the data, etc. I take notes on the thread about the data in my usual rambly fashion. Then at some point, I notice that oh wait, I've been learning a lot of words, but I haven't been quizzing myself on them! So I write some posts where I include lists where each line has the following format:

English [or other source language] word = Equivalent in target language

(Note: The source language is not always English, though it usually is. Sometimes, I know a word in another language that's much more concise than its English equivalent and that I instantly recognize, so I use that instead of English). Sometimes, I do it the other way around for some of my languages, particularly Malayalam, but not for languages like these since I barely know them at all. I only do this for Malayalam sometimes because sometimes, it's the English equivalent(s) I have a hard time remembering, or there may be multiple translations for a word into English and I want to see if I can memorize them all.

Then every now and then, when I happen to be going through my languages and I have a chance, I use those posts with that format to quiz myself on vocabulary (and often grammar/syntax).

If you want a more detailed explanation, though, it probably depends on the language since different kinds of resources exist for different languages. I try to explain this stuff in threads specific to each of those languages, though. (Also, caveat: There are some exceptions to this, e.g. I currently don't have to go hunting for data in Krio because I happened to take a seminar with my advisor once where he went over lots of stuff in Krio with us! Nearly four years after I started a thread on Krio, I'm still not done going through the notes on Krio I took in that seminar).

Vijay for all your talk about there being so many languages you don't know, I don't see you doing any Caucasian languages.

The next Eurasian language I learn will probably be Georgian or something (Basque is a pretty strong candidate, too). I've been deliberately avoiding adding Eurasian languages for the time being, though, because a) I'm familiar with so many of them because most of the languages you can find resources for anywhere are, in fact, Eurasian, and b) they share a lot of typological features and borrow from each other even when they're not related to each other.

Or indigenous ones from places other than where white people have colonized (i.e., the Americas and Australia).

What places did white people not colonize? And I've been trying to study indigenous languages from literally all over the world, including at least three in Africa, two in India (or three again if you count Hindi and Urdu as separate), one in China, three in Indonesia, one in the Philippines, one in Thailand, one in Turkey, one in Serbia...

You're pidgeon*-holing yourself! Learn Veddah!

Modern Vedda as I understand it is basically a Sinhalese-based creole. It could be interesting but definitely won't be the next language I learn.

[księżycowy]

Ok, I'll cut to the chase: Seneca.
It has (beyond the language classes) an English -> Seneca dictionary, a grammar, and a bunch of other stuff on that site. No proper textbook or pedagogical grammar. How (beyond the language lessons) would you learn the nuts and bolts.

It's probably a stupid question at this point, but I'm curious how you'd tackle it regardless.

[vijayjohn]

I'm not sure which language classes you mean (you mean where it says, "Community Classes Now Available!"?), but it's not a stupid question at all! In fact, it's such an interesting question that I actually went to the website to try and figure out what I would actually do given these resources. I honestly think I would start with the language supplement and Track 06 under the audio files for said supplement. The first five tracks are about sounds in Seneca; I'm not interested in spending time on that at the very beginning, at least. I have a chance to find out how to actually say something in this language, I have it written down, I have an audio file of it, so why not start there?

That's not what you meant by the language classes or lessons, is it?

EDIT: Ohh, you meant the "Language Lessons with Pearl White," didn't you?! Okay, then I think I'll stand by what I wrote.

EDIT2: ...księżycowy, I honestly doubt I've ever seen another website for learning any language that has that many useful resources all in one place. Maybe IMABI.

[księżycowy]

Wow. You're all over the place.

To add the confusion, both language lessons. I started using the Language Lessons with Pearl White and now I'm taking the Community lessons.

So, how would you tackle the resources on the website? I never said they didn't have a lot of helpful stuff, by the way. I'm just curious how to utilize all of these different resources effectively.

The reason I ask is because I'm used to using a textbook, and usually just a textbook, to learn a language.

And I think I'm actually going to go the same way you suggest. I actually thought that myself last night. Start using the Language Supplement as, well, a supplement to the community lessons. Should I start digging into the grammar yet?

[vijayjohn]

In all honesty, I think I'd have to just try doing it myself to know for sure because that's the only way I'd know how much I can get out of those lessons to begin with. How are you taking the Community lessons, btw? Do you Skype them or something or go there in person or what? Or are you just using their worksheets?

And if possible, definitely don't limit yourself to a textbook for any language! This is the fucking Internet, man; there's so much fun stuff you can do with a language here! There's no way I would just use a textbook these days. I don't even have a textbook for almost half of the languages on this TAC. I have a bunch of textbooks for Mandarin and a few for each of French, Spanish, German, Latin, and Serbo-Croatian, plus I have my dad's old textbooks for German and Russian (which are more like grammars with extremely outdated geographical references ), two audiobooks for Russian (which are also outdated and which I can't use anymore because none of our cassette players work anymore! ), Colloquial Amharic, Syrian Colloquial Arabic (which only has eight chapters ), and TY for Thai, Swahili, Portuguese, Urdu, and Croatian, plus LP for Thai, Croatian, and Malay, another phrasebook for each of Indonesian and Thai, a really crappy book for Tagalog, and dictionaries for Malayalam, Mandarin, French, German, Latin, Spanish, Croatian, Russian, Hindi, and Malay. Oh, and a CD-ROM + workbook set for German (I don't have a CD drive I can use anymore, either...) plus another CD for Russian.

[księżycowy]

1. I "Skype" in. (It's not really through Skype, but it's the same basic idea.) It would be a bit of a long drive for me, even being in the same state.

2. I don't "limit" my learning to a textbook. I just mean to suggest it is my main go to in the initial stages of learning. I certainly do reference "outside" sources when available. If you catch my drift.

3. So do it, so you answer my question.

[vijayjohn]

1. I "Skype" in. (It's not really through Skype, but it's the same basic idea.) It would be a bit of a long drive for me, even being in the same state.

Yeah, I figured! That's cool that you get to participate in those classes!

2. I don't "limit" my learning to a textbook. I just mean to suggest it is my main go to in the initial stages of learning. I certainly do reference "outside" sources when available. If you catch my drift.

Ah, OK. For me, even if I do have a textbook, it often isn't my main go-to at all. Take Russian or Urdu, for instance, or Portuguese. Going through a textbook for Portuguese is sort of a waste of time for me because I already know Spanish. Going through my dad's textbook for Russian is honestly just a pain in the ass, and I can say that because I've tried! For Urdu, okay, it's more like what you said; I did start out with TY, but it only gets you so far, so now, I kind of just rely on old Bollywood songs and poetry combined with this really awesome online dictionary.

3. So do it, so you answer my question.