TAC 2017-2018 dEhiN

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-11-13, 21:00

vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:Were you correcting the Tamil transcription, or saying that that's the way the diphthongs are in Malayalam? :hmm:

Correcting the IPA

I'm pretty sure I've heard (some) Tamil speakers actually say something like /a͡i/ over /a͡ɪ/. Though perhaps they were saying /aj/ instead?

vijayjohn wrote:What do you mean by "recite the consonant by itself"? :hmm: Can you give me an example of that?

You already answered it, but I meant the same as "consonant minus a vowel attached" or க். To me that's, in Tamil, a மெய் எழுத்து while உ is a உயிர் எழுத்து and then க is a உயிர்மெய் எழுத்து. I don't know how the alphabet is taught in Malayalam, but my understanding is that in Tamil you learn all the உயிர் எழுத்து, then the மெய் எழுத்து and then the உயிர்மெய் எழுத்து. Or, in other words, க is taught as the consonant க் with the vowel அ. While, it seems to me that in Hindi, when you learn a consonant sign, it's taught as having the inherent vowel in its "normal state" or by default, and then you learn separately what to do to remove the inherent vowel and just have the consonant. I hope that makes sense.

vijayjohn wrote:No, I didn't. I left them out on purpose because I was talking about the phonemic inventory, not the alphabet! ;) This is also why I did not include /n̪/ and /n/ as distinct phonemes in Tamil; yes, there are distinct characters for representing these sounds, but the sounds themselves are in complementary distribution.

Oh I guess I missed that distinction. I was talking about the alphabet.

księżycowy wrote:
dEhiN wrote:What's the CIL book like? I'll have to check it out!

CIIL. Central Institute for Indian Languages.
I mean, it's not a bad textbook. It's kinda skimpy on explaining grammar, and everything is in Tamil script. Everything. And they don't start you off learning the script, they just plunge you right in. In their defense though, they are supposed to have a script book too.

I've never understood books that are trying to teach beginners the language and use the script from the beginning! Well...unless you mean that the explanations are in English, but all the Tamil examples are in Tamil script. But I've seen books - in fact the one my Tamil teacher and I use are like this - where everything including the instructions are in the script/language. I guess these type of books are meant to be used with a native teacher?

księżycowy wrote:Damn it, dEhiN! You've got me eyeing my copy of the Chechen Reader for the past three days!

I briefly had a wanderlust for Chechen but that never quite blossomed like it did for Archi.

księżycowy wrote:I mean, I took it out because I'm reorganizing things and trying to sell off some language books.
Free to any Unilanger, just pay shipping!

What books? For me, even if I know I might not get to a book until years later, I'll keep it just in case...! I guess when it comes to language books, I have more of a hoarder mentality. I wonder if it'd be cheaper to pay shipping, or just rent a car and drive down. Probably shipping, but then I wouldn't get a possible opportunity to finally meet a Unilanger in person!
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księżycowy

Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-13, 21:07

dEhiN wrote:I've never understood books that are trying to teach beginners the language and use the script from the beginning! Well...unless you mean that the explanations are in English, but all the Tamil examples are in Tamil script. But I've seen books - in fact the one my Tamil teacher and I use are like this - where everything including the instructions are in the script/language. I guess these type of books are meant to be used with a native teacher?

The explanations are in deed in English. I meant that all of the Tamil was in Tamil script, not that the whole book was in Tamil.

I briefly had a wanderlust for Chechen but that never quite blossomed like it did for Archi.

Yeah, I kinda have a thing for the Caucasus. You'll be happy to know my brief of interest resurgence for Chechen has died down. (For now.)

What books? For me, even if I know I might not get to a book until years later, I'll keep it just in case...! I guess when it comes to language books, I have more of a hoarder mentality. I wonder if it'd be cheaper to pay shipping, or just rent a car and drive down. Probably shipping, but then I wouldn't get a possible opportunity to finally meet a Unilanger in person!

I'd still love to meet. Seems stupid not to, considering. but I know that can be hard. Money, vehicle, etc.

At any rate, I'm still sorting through stuff, but things I know I want/need to get rid of are in a storage bin. I can look through and write it up later if you want. It's not much trouble.

I'm honestly shocked we don't have a book selling/sharing thread.

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-11-13, 21:29

księżycowy wrote:I'd still love to meet. Seems stupid not to, considering. but I know that can be hard. Money, vehicle, etc.

Yeah it does. I've seen somewhere something that says how in youth you have time and energy but no money, as an adult you (generally!) have energy and money but no time, and as a senior you have time and money but no energy! :D But it kinda sucks because I tend to have a lot of free time, but rarely the money to travel. (I guess it makes sense though since the thing that affords me the free time - my health struggles - also make it difficult to work and earn money.)

księżycowy wrote:At any rate, I'm still sorting through stuff, but things I know I want/need to get rid of are in a storage bin. I can look through and write it up later if you want. It's not much trouble.

Sure, thanks!

księżycowy wrote:I'm honestly shocked we don't have a book selling/sharing thread.

Time to start one? Although I'm not sure if there are/would be forum policies on a book selling thread since those are business-like transactions. Unless the thread was just something like people posting what stuff they were getting rid of (either to sell or willing to share/loan/donate), and anyone interested would have to pm the OP.
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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-13, 21:34

the thread was just something like people posting what stuff they were getting rid of (either to sell or willing to share/loan/donate), and anyone interested would have to pm the OP.

That's pretty much what my idea was, yes.

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-11-13, 21:35

I don't think that's against forum rules; it's just that most of us are way too nerdy to part with our beloved books. :P
dEhiN wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:Were you correcting the Tamil transcription, or saying that that's the way the diphthongs are in Malayalam? :hmm:

Correcting the IPA

I'm pretty sure I've heard (some) Tamil speakers actually say something like /a͡i/ over /a͡ɪ/. Though perhaps they were saying /aj/ instead?

Tie bars just aren't used for diphthongs AFAIK. And yeah, it's probably /aj/. Eh, who knows.
You already answered it, but I meant the same as "consonant minus a vowel attached" or க். To me that's, in Tamil, a மெய் எழுத்து while உ is a உயிர் எழுத்து and then க is a உயிர்மெய் எழுத்து.

You mean you learn க் before learning க?? That's bizarrely English-like to me. :shock:
I don't know how the alphabet is taught in Malayalam, but my understanding is that in Tamil you learn all the உயிர் எழுத்து, then the மெய் எழுத்து and then the உயிர்மெய் எழுத்து. Or, in other words, க is taught as the consonant க் with the vowel அ. While, it seems to me that in Hindi, when you learn a consonant sign, it's taught as having the inherent vowel in its "normal state" or by default, and then you learn separately what to do to remove the inherent vowel and just have the consonant. I hope that makes sense.

I thought the inherent vowel was a pan-Indian concept and that everyone learned the alphabet for their respective languages with the inherent vowel. I wouldn't have guessed Sri Lanka would do it any differently. I've seen Tamil school textbooks teach the consonants with that vowel, e.g. க ங etc. rather than க் ங் etc. Even Learn Tamil in 30 Days teaches it with the vowel first, but could it be that the letters are taught with the dot first for people who are learning it through English in Tamil classes, perhaps because English-speakers are expected to be more familiar with learning letters for consonants in isolation rather than with the inherent vowel?
Oh I guess I missed that distinction. I was talking about the alphabet.

I know. I probably shouldn't have been so confusing about it because I started out talking about the Malayalam alphabet and then the phonemic inventory for Tamil. Sorry!

księżycowy

Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-13, 21:37

It doesn't have to goodbye for ever.

Share and share alike.

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-11-13, 21:39

But...but then I have to use snail mail! And packages! In the 21st century!! *shudders* :lol:

księżycowy

Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-13, 21:40

How else can I sit at home and wait gleefully for your package to come?

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-11-13, 21:55

All this reminds me, I offered to send a style guide in Malayalam to an old friend ages ago and never did. :para: That was for keeps, though.

I wonder what I have that you'd be interested in...I have Mícheál Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish, this, and Yookoso!. And National Geographic, which my family would probably let you keep, but I probably wouldn't. :twisted: Idk just some ideas.

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-13, 22:07

I have a copy of Ó Siadhail myself. What kinda Irish learner would I be if I didn't? :silly:

The American Indian Languages one could be interesting. I'm good on Japanese textbooks. I plan to use some of my Christmas money to buy the next set of materials for MnN. Love that textbook series.
For a second there, I thought that said Yotsuba&. :P

I'd definitely keep the NatGeo. :twisted:

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-11-14, 2:50

vijayjohn wrote:Tie bars just aren't used for diphthongs AFAIK.

What are they used for then? Only affricates?

vijayjohn wrote:You mean you learn க் before learning க?? That's bizarrely English-like to me. :shock:

vijayjohn wrote:I thought the inherent vowel was a pan-Indian concept and that everyone learned the alphabet for their respective languages with the inherent vowel. I wouldn't have guessed Sri Lanka would do it any differently. I've seen Tamil school textbooks teach the consonants with that vowel, e.g. க ங etc. rather than க் ங் etc. Even Learn Tamil in 30 Days teaches it with the vowel first, but could it be that the letters are taught with the dot first for people who are learning it through English in Tamil classes, perhaps because English-speakers are expected to be more familiar with learning letters for consonants in isolation rather than with the inherent vowel?

You know what, now that I think about it, it could just be the way I learned it. That is, I learned the alphabet + script using online resources, so yeah perhaps those resources were aimed at English speakers. Though why I got the impression that that's how Tamilians are taught the script is because every Tamil alphabet chart I've seen uses a grid with the vowels across the top (forming columns), the consonants along the left (forming rows), and then each consonant-vowel letter filled in the middle. It wasn't until I first started reading some Hindi resources that I learned about the concept of inherent vowel, and it seemed so strange to me. I remember even chatting with Meera about that because it was so new a concept to me: that a "consonant" character in its "default" state would have an inherent vowel, and that you'd have to modify that character in some way to make it a true consonant.
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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-11-14, 3:13

Wow, I had to go 3 pages back to find this! It's about 2 days late...but, oh well... :whistle:

Spanish
  • Finish objective 2.18 of Week 2 from the Future Learn course "Spanish for Beginners 1"
Swedish
  • Read pages xvi - xix of "Teach Yourself Complete Swedish" (which covers sections "Pronunciation" and "Vowels")
Korean
  • Read pages 6-7 of the textbook "Integrated Korean: Beginning 1" (which covers sections "Address/reference terms", "Honorific and humble words", and "Pronouns")
Seneca
  • Complete Lesson 1 from Language Lessons with Pearl White
Anki
  • Add the new vocabulary from my language notebook to Anki, including the Albanian words
  • Start going through the Albanian deck, one card per day

For Korean I actually read up to page 9, so in addition to the above sections, I covered "Speech levels", "Subject honorific suffix" and "Non-verbal behaviour". I want to go through pages 6-9 again though and write out some of the example vocabulary to add to Anki (in case I don't already have it). I also was able to add some new vocabulary from my language notebook - about 1/2 a page. But I still have 12 pages worth of new words to add!

So, in the "speech levels" section of the Korean textbook, they talked about the suffixes normally added to verbs/adjectives for each speech level. I took a photo of it:
IMG_20171113_215734_1.jpg

My question, for anyone who knows Korean, is this: are those suffixes always attached in the way they are written? Or do they sometimes change form, depending on the verb/adjective?
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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-11-14, 3:37

Alright, so since these past few weeks have been challenging, I'm going to set only a couple or small handful of goals this week.

My goals for 12/11/17 - 18/11/17:

Swedish
  • Read pages xvi - xix of "Teach Yourself Complete Swedish" (which covers sections "Pronunciation" and "Vowels")
Seneca
Anki
  • Add the new vocabulary from my language notebook (pages 115, and 119 - 130) to Anki

One thing I forgot to include in the previous post is that even though I may not have done too much in the way of my study goals, I have still been going through Anki every day which includes both reviewing and learning unlearned/new words. Unfortunately some days, when I'm really low, I don't do any new learning but only review. As such, my rate of new/unlearned cards per day is less than what I'm aiming for. But still, most of the week I'm able to hit that rate.
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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-11-14, 3:56

księżycowy wrote:The American Indian Languages one could be interesting.

Eh, it's a good introduction to NAILs in general but doesn't include all that much useful data about specific languages. It has lots of examples, of course, but not enough to actually help you with any one language, y'know? :P
I plan to use some of my Christmas money to buy the next set of materials for MnN.

What's MnN? :hmm:
dEhiN wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Tie bars just aren't used for diphthongs AFAIK.

What are they used for then? Only affricates?

Tbh, in the linguistic literature, I have only ever seen it used to represent double articulation and even more specifically for labial-velar stops (or labiovelar stops, as I would have called them before coming across the Wikipedia article at least :hmm:), but it can also be used for affricates and prenasalized consonants (e.g. [m͡b], but I've seen more often with the nasal component as a superscript before the oral component, e.g. [ᵐb]).
Though why I got the impression that that's how Tamilians are taught the script is because every Tamil alphabet chart I've seen uses a grid with the vowels across the top (forming columns), the consonants along the left (forming rows), and then each consonant-vowel letter filled in the middle.

I think that's just because that's technically correct and because such charts are necessary for people learning the Tamil script because the way you represent /u/ or /uː/ after a consonant varies so much. :P In Devanagari, for example, it's far more straightforward: It's always the same exact little squiggle under each letter, except that after /ɾ/, the squiggle is to the right of the letter, not below it.

Fun fact: Malayalam started out being about as complicated about this as Tamil was, except that then there was an orthographic reform in 1971 that made this completely regularized, much more like Devanagari and most other Indian scripts. Both variations are still common to this day because a lot of older people (like my dad) hate the reform. For some reason, Mozilla and Chrome both use the pre-reform forms, whereas Chromium uses the post-reform ones.

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-11-14, 5:20

vijayjohn wrote:
I plan to use some of my Christmas money to buy the next set of materials for MnN.

What's MnN? :hmm:

Minna no Nihongo, the text that księżycowy is using to learn Japanese, if I remember correctly.

vijayjohn wrote:Fun fact: Malayalam started out being about as complicated about this as Tamil was, except that then there was an orthographic reform in 1971 that made this completely regularized, much more like Devanagari and most other Indian scripts. Both variations are still common to this day because a lot of older people (like my dad) hate the reform. For some reason, Mozilla and Chrome both use the pre-reform forms, whereas Chromium uses the post-reform ones.

Do you mean if you change the language to Malayalam? Or do you mean when rendering text on a webpage that has Malayalam?

(Also, I was hoping you would have responded to my Korean question, but I guess Korean is one of the (few :D) languages that you haven't studied that much?)
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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-11-14, 5:51

dEhiN wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
I plan to use some of my Christmas money to buy the next set of materials for MnN.

What's MnN? :hmm:

Minna no Nihongo, the text that księżycowy is using to learn Japanese, if I remember correctly.

Ah, OK, thanks! :)
Do you mean if you change the language to Malayalam? Or do you mean when rendering text on a webpage that has Malayalam?

When rendering text on a webpage that has it
(Also, I was hoping you would have responded to my Korean question, but I guess Korean is one of the (few :D) languages that you haven't studied that much?)

Sort of. Sorry, I didn't notice your question! I believe the answer is "yes, they do always have those forms." It's the pronunciation that varies, not the spelling.

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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby dEhiN » 2017-11-14, 6:51

vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:(Also, I was hoping you would have responded to my Korean question, but I guess Korean is one of the (few :D) languages that you haven't studied that much?)

Sort of. Sorry, I didn't notice your question! I believe the answer is "yes, they do always have those forms." It's the pronunciation that varies, not the spelling.

감사합니다!
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Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-11-14, 7:13

dEhiN wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:(Also, I was hoping you would have responded to my Korean question, but I guess Korean is one of the (few :D) languages that you haven't studied that much?)

Sort of. Sorry, I didn't notice your question! I believe the answer is "yes, they do always have those forms." It's the pronunciation that varies, not the spelling.

감사합니다!

아니에요. :)

księżycowy

Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-14, 10:26

vijayjohn wrote:
dEhiN wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
I plan to use some of my Christmas money to buy the next set of materials for MnN.

What's MnN? :hmm:

Minna no Nihongo, the text that księżycowy is using to learn Japanese, if I remember correctly.

Ah, OK, thanks! :)

Yup, that's it.

księżycowy

Re: TAC 2017 dEhiN

Postby księżycowy » 2017-11-14, 10:34

dEhiN wrote:Swedish
  • Read pages xvi - xix of "Teach Yourself Complete Swedish" (which covers sections "Pronunciation" and "Vowels")

I'm so jealous. I wanna learn Swedish too! :doggy:

Oh well, I'll get around to it eventually. German comes first.

Seneca

So wait, you're continuing on with Seneca?
I was considering switching to Cayuga, if you weren't doing Seneca anymore. But I'm glad to see you sticking through. Actually, as far as Seneca goes, it's orthography and phonology are pretty simple. Well, in my eyes anyway.

Glad you're still on board. (I hope)


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